Israel vs Hamas (2 Viewers)

[GrandAdmiral]

Looks like the fight is on with Israeli soldiers and civilians amongst the dead already. Question becomes, how long before we get dragged into this?

Netanyahu says Israel is ‘at war’ after Hamas launches surprise attack, takes hostages | CNN

Israel’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu declared that the country was “at war” on Saturday, after Palestinian militants in Gaza fired a deadly barrage of rockets and sent gunmen into Israeli territory in a major escalation of the long running conflict between the two sides.

www.cnn.com

 

[coldseat]

guess this can go here
===============

President Donald Trump has nominated a Michigan mayor who played a key role in helping him win Arab American votes in the swing state to be U.S. ambassador to Kuwait. Amer Ghalib, mayor of the Muslim-majority city of Hamtramck, has been a vocal critic of Israel’s military campaign against Hamas in Gaza.

“Amer worked hard to help us secure a Historic Victory in Michigan,” Trump wrote Friday on his Truth Social platform. Ghalib, 45, endorsed Trump in September as Muslim and Arab American voters grew increasingly angry over the Biden-Harris administration’s support for Israel.

A Yemeni immigrant, Ghalib has a history of promoting antisemitic ideas online since becoming the municipality’s first Arab American and Muslim mayor. And under his leadership, Hamtramck became the first city in the nation to support Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions against Israel, which some critics see as an assault on the legitimacy of the Jewish state’s existence.

A few years ago, the mayor “liked” a Facebook comment that called Jews “monkeys.” During the 2020 presidential primaries, Ghalib, who supported Sen. Bernie Sanders, suggested that Americans will rage about the Jewish candidate’s popularity among Muslim and Arab American voters and back his Democratic rival Joe Biden “just to spite Muslims and Arabs.”.............

This mayor helped Trump win Arab American voters in Michigan. His reward: An ambassadorship.​

He sold out his community and got rewarded. There seems to be a lot of that going around.

 

[Heathen]

Reason #58536 that it’s more about forcefully pushing Palestinians out of their land, under the guise of “we want to force Hamas to give back hostages”

Israel cuts off electricity supply to Gaza, minister says

Eli Cohen's announcement on Sunday came one week after Israel cut off all aid supplies to the territory.

www.bbc.com

This was ALWAYS about ethnic cleansing. It was always about illegally taking more land. And that’s exactly what they’re doing.

 

[Heathen]

Last night my wife and I watched a local showing of “No Other Land” in theaters. It’s a documentary put together by two friends - one Palestinian and another Israeli, documenting the crimes of the IDF and the struggle as families have their homes demolished, family members assaulted / killed, water and electricity cut - driven to live in caves in their land of Masafer Yatta in the southern West Bank.

It has struggled to gain traction in theaters because of its perceived critical portrayal of Israeli actions in the West Bank, with many including Miami mayor Steve Mainer trying to evict and cut funding local independent theaters in the area for simply screening the film.

Highly recommended:

 

[GrandAdmiral]

Reason #58536 that it’s more about forcefully pushing Palestinians out of their land, under the guise of “we want to force Hamas to give back hostages”

Israel cuts off electricity supply to Gaza, minister says

Eli Cohen's announcement on Sunday came one week after Israel cut off all aid supplies to the territory.

www.bbc.com

This was ALWAYS about ethnic cleansing. It was always about illegally taking more land. And that’s exactly what they’re doing.

Thanks a lot Dearborn.

 

[bird]

Thanks a lot Dearborn.

And like African countries are just gonna let Israel and the U.S. shove these poor people on them. I would tell them to fork right off.

 

[Heathen]

Thanks a lot Dearborn.

I’m missing the connection.

 

[Optimus Prime]

I’m missing the connection.

Voted for Trump because they weren’t happy with how Biden handled Israel and Hamas

 

[Heathen]

Voted for Trump because they weren’t happy with how Biden handled Israel and Hamas

Ah. I don’t think it would have made any difference, personally. Israel has been cutting electricity and water for months under Biden. They’ve been continuing to commit atrocity after atrocity despite the leader in office, with the clear objective of ethnic cleansing. A lot of that is because as everyone knows, Israel has the US by the balls.

They likely would have just done more of the same under Harris.

 

[DaveXA]

Ah. I don’t think it would have made any difference, personally. Israel has been cutting electricity and water for months under Biden. They’ve been continuing to commit atrocity after atrocity despite the leader in office, with the clear objective of ethnic cleansing. A lot of that is because as everyone knows, Israel has the US by the balls.

They likely would have just done more of the same under Harris.

This is an utterly ignorant take.

 

[RobF]

This is an utterly ignorant take.

Yeah, I mean, I do get the cynicism, it's not entirely unmerited. But when we've had Trump literally calling for the ethnic cleansing of Gaza himself, it's hard to say that's not at all significant.

 

[bird]

Solution to the Middleeast?

We don’t have one and never will. As long as we view the government of Israel which is not the same as the Israeli people as being worthy of support at all times this insanity will continue.

On a related note, the Middleeast mess is the end result of WW1 which the world is still paying for and likely will be forever.

 

[Heathen]

This is an utterly ignorant take.

Oh Dave, the places we could go with a comment like this…

Instead, I’d like to request that you to elucidate a bit on your take.

 

[Heathen]

Yeah, I mean, I do get the cynicism, it's not entirely unmerited. But when we've had Trump literally calling for the ethnic cleansing of Gaza himself, it's hard to say that's not at all significant.

And I agree with that. It’s most definitely significant.

I suppose to clarify, what I mean is that it wouldn’t have made much of a difference in the end if it all ends with people around you being slaughtered and your home being demolished.

I just think that acting as if the Palestinian people would have been better off or wouldn’t have had what Israel had been already doing for months done to them under Biden/Harris is an extremely time deaf way of looking at the situation.

To someone living in Gaza, which is what actually should matter - the outcome on the ground from those experiencing it firsthand is effectively the same.

 

[DaveXA]

And I agree with that. It’s most definitely significant.

I suppose to clarify, what I mean is that it wouldn’t have made much of a difference in the end if it all ends with people around you being slaughtered and your home being demolished.

I just think that acting as if the Palestinian people would have been better off or wouldn’t have had what Israel had been already doing for months done to them under Biden/Harris is an extremely time deaf way of looking at the situation.

To someone living in Gaza, which is what actually should matter - the outcome on the ground from those experiencing it firsthand is effectively the same.

To the Palestinians who have been displaced/killed in Gaza, sure, it wouldn't make much difference to them. But to Palestinians living in the US protesting the our handling of the situation, it makes all the difference.

People don't live in a vacuum. It matters who is in the WH. And while I don't think Biden did enough, and it's fair to wonder how much Harris would have done, there's absolutely no doubt that in terms of public policies, Harris would be a far more reasonable player in this mess than Trump. Surely you haven't missed Trump's comments stating the US would go in and take Gaza and build it into whatever. His administration is now arresting legal residents for no other reason than exercising first amendment rights and worse. That doesn't happen with a Harris administration.

And I'm not convinced it wouldn't be better for actual Gazans as I'm sure Harris would have supported them returning to and rebuilding Gaza for Gazans.

 

[RobF]

To add some additional information to this, Israel reportedly consulted the US before these strikes:

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-consulted-us-its-strikes-gaza-white-house-told-fox-news-2025-03-18/

The Guardian has a fuller quote than in that article here:

"The Trump administration and the White House were consulted by the Israelis on their attacks in Gaza tonight. And as President Trump has made it clear, Hamas, the Houthis, Iran – all those who seek to terrorize not just Israel but also the United States of America – will see a price to pay.​

​

All hell will break loose, and all of the terrorists in the Middle East – again, the Houthis, Hezbollah, Hamas, Iranian-backed terror proxies and Iran themselves – should take President Trump very seriously when he says he is not afraid to stand for law-abiding people. He is not afraid to stand up for the United States of America and our friend and our ally Israel."​

​

Now I'm not saying that under a Harris administration Israel definitely wouldn't have been launching any more strikes. But I'm pretty confident a Harris administration wouldn't have been actively encouraging them at this point, let alone with that kind of "all hell will break loose" rhetoric.

I do get that at the receiving end the difference between "barely restrained" and "not only unrestrained but actively encouraged" might not seem tangible in the outcomes. But I think over time it can become the difference between terrible, and, somehow, much much worse.

 

[Heathen]

To the Palestinians who have been displaced/killed in Gaza, sure, it wouldn't make much difference to them. But to Palestinians living in the US protesting the our handling of the situation, it makes all the difference.

Yes, and those who are being displaced/killed in Gaza is the subject of discussion right now - not Palestinian protestors.

I'm fine to have that discussion - but your earlier comment directed at me was referencing the conversation of (i'm paraphrasing) "would it have made a difference who was in office", which originally stemmed from a report that showed Israel was cutting off electricity to all of Gaza.

People don't live in a vacuum. It matters who is in the WH. And while I don't think Biden did enough, and it's fair to wonder how much Harris would have done, there's absolutely no doubt that in terms of public policies, Harris would be a far more reasonable player in this mess than Trump.

Nobody said that they lived in a vacuum.

But what I feel you don't understand is that for the lived experiences of those on the ground in Gaza, it is more of a 'vacuum'. There really is less of a difference. Are we going to argue Harris vs Trump policies and perceived differences as it effects the people there -- when both have allowed and encouraged Israel to turn Gaza to ash in different ways?

You and I both know we don't agree with the notion that Biden simply "Didn't do enough". He also did too much - such as bypassing Congress to give the IDF more money to kill more civilians. Such as allowing Israel to time and time and time again cross the "red line".

Now, you can certainly make the distinction that a Harris administration or under Biden that palestinian protestors (notice - we're now changing the subject a bit) wouldn't have been targeted for their free speech rights remotely to the level that they are now. And as far as that subject goes, we fully agree.

I can admit the reality of the complicity of the last administration in Gaza's destruction while also holding that a Harris administration would have been night and day better for many lived experiences outside of the Palestinian people. We can walk and chew gum at the same time.

Surely you haven't missed Trump's comments stating the US would go in and take Gaza and build it into whatever. His administration is now arresting legal residents for no other reason than exercising first amendment rights and worse. That doesn't happen with a Harris administration.

So what does happen under a Harris administration?

Because under Biden/Harris, most of Gaza was destroyed - over 50,000 (likely higher) Palestinians murdered - approximately 80% estimated to be civilians.

They not only allowed it to happen - they actively helped in facilitating it.

You're saying "at least they may not have been able to build condos?"

And I'm not convinced it wouldn't be better for actual Gazans as I'm sure Harris would have supported them returning to and rebuilding Gaza for Gazans.

Both Biden and Harris maintained that they supported a 'two state solution' yet allowed the complete destruction of Gaza to happen.

I would be more wary if I were you of what politicians say they'll do in public vs. what they actually do.

How you could expect any Palestinians would have an iota of trust in what the Americans promise? They don't care about this red vs. blue silliness we're obsessed with here. They care more about being able to feed their families. About not being blown to bits in their sleep by IDF soldiers who joyfully parade their slaughter with tik tok dances. These people have been living the experience of apartheid long before October 7th, 2023.

 

[Heathen]

Now I'm not saying that under a Harris administration Israel definitely wouldn't have been launching any more strikes. But I'm pretty confident a Harris administration wouldn't have been actively encouraging them at this point, let alone with that kind of "all hell will break loose" rhetoric.

Agreed.

I do get that at the receiving end the difference between "barely restrained" and "not only unrestrained but actively encouraged" might not seem tangible in the outcomes. But I think over time it can become the difference between terrible, and, somehow, much much worse.

That's valid.

I guess that some of my frustration comes from those unwilling to look at "terrible" and actively speak out against their party's terrible policies.

Despite being a Democrat voter, I've experienced a lot of seemingly tribalist defense of these policies from some fellow Democrats instead of an objectively honest admission that they were horrific and we must hold our leader's feet to the fire where their actions don't align with the views of their constituents.

It does remind me of how many Trump voters act when you ask them if they believe January 6th rioters were wrong for beating police officers. They know that it is wrong, but their brain kind of just goes into defense mode and they can't fully admit it.

I fully agree that Trump is worse across the board across all circumstances (though again, with an asterisk for the families in Gaza - as I think that's much too simplistic a statement for that case). It's not even an argument. I suppose that I just hold that we still should be able to call out without fear of retribution where our party acts out of accordance with our beliefs. And I don't think most Americans want us to be slaughtering poor families and children for the purpose of religious fanatics stealing land..even if they are an ally.

 

[Optimus Prime]

The detention of Columbia university student Mahmoud Khalil is unequivocally chilling. Khalil, who helped lead the Gaza solidarity encampment at Columbia university last year, was targeted for his politics.

His unlawful arrest by the US immigration enforcement agency comes amidst relentless smears lobbed at protesters of Israel’s war on Gaza. This McCarthyite abduction of a Palestinian Green Card holder is a trial balloon, a test of what society might tolerate and a threat of more to come.

And the added horror-show twist to this assault on free speech is that it is being done in the name of Jewish people under the pretence of tackling antisemitism.

Such egregious claims are easily refuted. Most American Jews didn’t vote for Trump and don’t back his crackdowns.

As Amy Spitalnick of the Jewish Council for Public Affairs, one of multiple Jewish groups opposing Khalili’s detention, said: “The Trump administration is exploiting real concerns about antisemitism to undercut democracy.”

Meanwhile, it is grotesque to pretend that Team Trump, home to antisemitic conspiracy theories, Nazi salutes and Holocaust denialism, is fighting antisemitism, rather than actively reproducing it.

But while Khalil’s arrest fits into longstanding attempts to silence pro-Palestine protesters, it is also part of a wider global authoritarianism.

US students protesting Israel’s decimation of Gaza have faced relentless bi-partisan furore over antisemitism claimed to be rife within such movements. And pro-Israel groups have lobbied hard to provoke these accusations.

But to locate Trump’s crackdown purely within this political arena is to misunderstand the full force of far-right ideology in all its mechanisms.

That pro-Israel Jewish groups, or the Israel government are cheering this assault on free speech does not substantively change the dynamics of power at play here. This is not about the impact of pro-Israel Jewish university funders, or aggressively anti-Palestinian alumni groups, or even the prominent Anti-Defamation League.

We can – and should – criticise their actions and their abject moral failure in lining up with Trump. But we can do so without inflating their influence to suggest that authoritarianism in supposed defence of Jewish people is actually being led by Jewish people.

For that would be to fall into a divisive trap set by Trump and the global far-right.

A key element here is that the far-right has found in its pretend fight against antisemitism the perfect political strategy, a way to divide progressives while at the same time clobbering them.

The far-right is using this wedge not just to shut down voices critical of Israel’s serial violence against Palestinians and a war on Gaza described by experts as genocidal, but also to attack so-called wokeism, critical race theory, Black Lives Matter, diversity, equity and inclusion programmes, ‘liberal elites’ at universities – in short, all the political enemies in its constructed culture wars.

This has long been clear across Europe, where far-right figures from Hungary’s Victor Orban to France’s Marine Le Pen have rehabilitated their political fortunes in part by performatively proclaiming to care about Jews.

This has been achieved by best-friending Israel, bear-hugging its prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu as a shield against accusations of antisemitism.

Wrapped in the Israeli flag, far-right parties with fascist roots and current displays of antisemitism cast themselves as defenders of Jews against an antisemitism claimed to be coming from Muslims and migrants.

It’s a terrifically self-serving formulation, since hating Muslims and migrants is the main ideological obsession and rallying cry for the resurgent far-right.

We see the same brush strokes in the Heritage Foundation’s Project Esther, a blueprint for Trump’s repressive crackdowns starting with pro-Palestine protesters, penned by Christian Evangelists and in a claimed defence of Jewish communities………

The far-right’s pretend fight against antisemitism is a perfect political strategy | Rachel Shabi

The far-right has found in its pretend fight against antisemitism a way to divide progressives while at the same time clobbering them

www.theguardian.com