Israel vs Hamas (2 Viewers)

[GrandAdmiral]

Looks like the fight is on with Israeli soldiers and civilians amongst the dead already. Question becomes, how long before we get dragged into this?

Netanyahu says Israel is ‘at war’ after Hamas launches surprise attack, takes hostages | CNN

Israel’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu declared that the country was “at war” on Saturday, after Palestinian militants in Gaza fired a deadly barrage of rockets and sent gunmen into Israeli territory in a major escalation of the long running conflict between the two sides.

www.cnn.com

 

[Redgold]

Hamas has fired over 3000 rockets and infiltrated Israel border towns via gliders, trucks, on foot and just opening fire on civilians in cars, at home or walking street.

There will be mass carnage when all said and done. This was a massive, planned operation and Hamas has sealed its fate. Iran reportedly supported Hamas for this operation, which if true, looks like they have solidified another "axis of evil" since partnered up with Russia and NK.

Things are gonna get real hairy here soon.

very soon!

 

[Redgold]

ok then

 

[Heathen]

This is crazy

Not surprising one bit.

 

[SamAndreas]

This is crazy

I found it to be "an incredible article" as well. "Incredible" simply means it's not believable. look it up in the dictionary, that's what it means. As soon as I get an inkling that an article is "incredible" I stop reading from it.



I read quite a while from that, then I got to this point in the prose and threw in the towel. For crying out loud it's one of """those articles.""" no point in reading from one of """those articles""" any further.

According to the publication, Cohen’s trips, during which he sought Kabila’s advice “on an issue of interest to Israel”, and which were almost certainly approved by Netanyahu, were highly unusual and had astonished senior figures within the intelligence community.

Reporting on the DRC meetings in 2022, the Israeli broadcaster Kan 11 said Cohen’s trips related to an “extremely controversial plan” and cited official sources who described it as “one of Israel’s most sensitive secrets”.

Multiple sources have confirmed to the Guardian the trips were partly related to the ICC operation, and Kabila, who left office in January 2019, played an important supporting role in the Mossad’s plot against Bensouda. Kabila did not respond to a request for comment.

Translation: it's grand conspiracy BS in the morning for breakfast, BS at noon for lunch, BS in the evening,for supper, BS burps bubbling up all night long when one is lounging in bed trying to sleep.

 

[Heathen]

 

[SamAndreas]

Oh deer. Deer have this horrid habit of leaping upward high into the air to grab Oak limbs with their teeth, to pull them down so they can eat the leaves.

I saw that same horrid effect in this infographic which if one clicks the arrows on the sides, it displays the next info-slide of sauga.

I also saw in the first sentence of the title which is not a truthful statement at all. "Israel used US made bombs to burn Palestinians alive," is not true.

It's not a good sign when an article starts with a lie. In this case a lie which was obviously intended to mislead and distort, to fume and stress over.

It's simple, our bombs are made to disrupt living tissue with a very sudden blast wave. Instant death from blast and shrapnel, there's no gracious burning alive aspect to it. They plumb lied about what our bombs are made to do.

And then they exaggerated some more here and there for further effect throughout their slick graphic info slideshow. Poor Journalism.

There's a just palestinian cause and issue. Slick infographics with lies, distortion, exaggeration imagery of burning alive, isn't the way to promote it.

 

[Heathen]

I found it to be "an incredible article" as well. "Incredible" simply means it's not believable. look it up in the dictionary, that's what it means. As soon as I get an inkling that an article is "incredible" I stop reading from it.

Could you tell me what you know about Mossad?

Because from at least what I know about Mossad, this is most definitely “believable”.

 

[SamAndreas]

Could you tell me what you know about Mossad?

Because from at least what I know about Mossad, this is most definitely “believable”.

What I know about Mossad is very similar to what I know about the CIA. I don't actually know very much about them by their very design. They're pretty competent organizations, real good at playing a dofus for the press to confuse folks like they ought to do.

They appear to enjoy having common people both here, and foreign leaders afar into thinking they are totally incompetent for any purpose whatsoever. They wear the incompantant cloak to protect themselves, what they do is spooky.

I've been exposed to a lot of comments from people who think they know more about it than I do.

What I know about it is I know what I don't know. Those were the unfortunate in that they didn't know what they didn't know.

So all my life they would talk at me about it like they knew all about it.

I would go uh-hu and nod. Smile.

I know that they didn't know about it. I at least know what it is that I don't know about it. Most of it.

 

[Heathen]

Oh deer. Deer have this horrid habit of leaping upward high into the air to grab Oak limbs with their teeth, to pull them down so they can eat the leaves.

I saw that same horrid effect in this infographic which if one clicks the arrows on the sides, it displays the next info-slide of sauga.

I also saw in the first sentence of the title which is not a truthful statement at all. "Israel used US made bombs to burn Palestinians alive," is not true.

It's not a good sign when an article starts with a lie. In this case a lie which was obviously intended to mislead and distort, to fume and stress over.

It's simple, our bombs are made to disrupt living tissue with a very sudden blast wave. Instant death from blast and shrapnel, there's no gracious burning alive aspect to it. They plumb lied about what our bombs are made to do.

And then they exaggerated some more here and there for further effect throughout their slick graphic info slideshow. Poor Journalism.

There's a just palestinian cause and issue. Slick infographics with lies, distortion, exaggeration imagery of burning alive, isn't the way to promote it.

We’re far past “this isn’t the right way to do things if you want people to see it your way”.

Did you actually read any articles surrounding this incident? A Sr US Army detonation expert weighed in on what they found and why. Are you disputing their claims?

It’s widely known what Israel has done to people of Gaza using US weapons up until this point. It isn’t arguable. Israel brags about it. The US admits it.

I’m not sure how reporting factual data about US bombs used by Israel in slaughtering Palestinian people is “sly journalism”.

It seems to be detracting from the point, which is that my tax money and your tax money are being used for genocide.

US-made munitions used in deadly strike on Rafah tent camp, CNN analysis shows | CNN

Munitions made in the United States were used in the deadly Israeli strike on a displacement camp in Rafah on Sunday, a CNN analysis of video from the scene and a review by explosive weapons experts has found.

www.cnn.com

 

[SamAndreas]

We’re far past “this isn’t the right way to do things if you want people to see it your way”.

Did you actually read any articles surrounding this incident? A Sr US Army detonation expert weighed in on what they found and why. Are you disputing their claims?

It’s widely known what Israel has done to people of Gaza using US weapons up until this point. It isn’t arguable. Israel brags about it. The US admits it.

I’m not sure how reporting factual data about US bombs used by Israel in slaughtering Palestinian people is “sly journalism”.

It seems to be detracting from the point, which is that my tax money and your tax money are being used for genocide.

US-made munitions used in deadly strike on Rafah tent camp, CNN analysis shows | CNN

Munitions made in the United States were used in the deadly Israeli strike on a displacement camp in Rafah on Sunday, a CNN analysis of video from the scene and a review by explosive weapons experts has found.

www.cnn.com

I don't think there is anyone around who doesn't know that the US supplies arms to Israel. Always have supplied them.

The Gaza war is one topic amoung many at the moment. At the moment.

That the US is the premier arms merchant in the world is another much larger domestic issue which transcends time. Twice as long, maybe three times as long as I've been alive.

 

[Heathen]

I don't think there is anyone around who doesn't know that the US supplies arms to Israel. Always have supplied them.

The Gaza war is one topic amoung many at the moment. At the moment.

That the US is the premier arms merchant in the world is another much larger domestic issue which transcends time. Twice as long, maybe three times as long as I've been alive.

It’s one thing to supply arms.

It’s an entirely other thing to supply arms that are actively contributing to a genocide of a people.

That’s what’s happening in Gaza. It will undoubtedly be a black stain both on our nation and on humanity for allowing it to happen.

There is no “thin red line” for the US. It’s all PR fluff. And people like John Kirby play resident clown, repeating the same sad tired nonsense even as western media like CNN, NYT, and MSNBC are aghast.

He got grilled today by reporters. As he should. Anyone who excuses the enablement of genocide deserves it.

 

[DaveXA]

We’re far past “this isn’t the right way to do things if you want people to see it your way”.

Did you actually read any articles surrounding this incident? A Sr US Army detonation expert weighed in on what they found and why. Are you disputing their claims?

It’s widely known what Israel has done to people of Gaza using US weapons up until this point. It isn’t arguable. Israel brags about it. The US admits it.

I’m not sure how reporting factual data about US bombs used by Israel in slaughtering Palestinian people is “sly journalism”.

It seems to be detracting from the point, which is that my tax money and your tax money are being used for genocide.

US-made munitions used in deadly strike on Rafah tent camp, CNN analysis shows | CNN

Munitions made in the United States were used in the deadly Israeli strike on a displacement camp in Rafah on Sunday, a CNN analysis of video from the scene and a review by explosive weapons experts has found.

www.cnn.com

Couple of quick thoughts, first, what's been reported about the incident has been horrific to see. Bibi made it clear the attack was a mistake, not that I believe any of what he said was worth listening to. To me, them admitting that absolutely they forked up in a bad way.

Nothing excuses what happened, but I suspect what caused the most damage and killed a lot of people were the secondary explosions caused by the bomb impact.

As for US made weapons being used by Israel, I don't support them using them to attack civilians in Gaza, but if they're used to directly attack Hamas operatives then that's what they're for.

I don't think anyone should be surprised US weapons are being used though. I mean, we've been their allies for years.

 

[Heathen]

Couple of quick thoughts, first, what's been reported about the incident has been horrific to see. Bibi made it clear the attack was a mistake, not that I believe any of what he said was worth listening to. To me, them admitting that absolutely they forked up in a bad way.

Nothing excuses what happened, but I suspect what caused the most damage and killed a lot of people were the secondary explosions caused by the bomb impact.

Ok? And what is a “secondary explosion” and what does it matter in any of this when the people there were in fact the targets of the terrorist IOF strikes.

Truly not trying to argue, and you seem to be a genuinely good person - so I definitely don’t want any of this taken as any personal affront.., I just can’t fathom why there’s a “but” in all of this after talking about the terror attacks on Rafah’s children.

Israel is a terrorist state. They continue to carry out terrorist acts every day against civilians. Period. I really am scratching my head to understand how it’s any other way when the proverbial writing is indeed on the wall, and has been for 8 months.

You can’t treat people as subhuman and torture, arrest, imprison and impoverish them for 70 years then wipe out 40,000 of these people and expect not to be called what you are.

As for US made weapons being used by Israel, I don't support them using them to attack civilians in Gaza, but if they're used to directly attack Hamas operatives then that's what they're for.

And do you question this..at all?

The IOF are clearly using US weapons to target civilians in order to wipe Gaza clean of Palestinian people and occupy the land. That IS ethnic cleansing and genocide. The evidence is there.

Israel could insert “there were Hamas operatives there” and would that give them the excuse to kill 200 people to purportedly target 1 Hamas member?

That is morally wrong. Horrifically wrong. Yet we continue to excuse it.

Because that is indeed what they are doing. This has been their way to excuse genocide. Claim Hamas is in refugee camps where Israel told Palestinians to go, claim Hamas is in the hospitals full of dying people as an excuse to commit massacres, claim Hamas is around ambulances full of the bleeding out,. We cannot keep buying this lie.

We can go over case after case after case of Israel doing this. There are likely hundreds now. Should we?

How many cases are enough to firmly say that a terrorist does NOT have good intentions?

I don't think anyone should be surprised US weapons are being used though. I mean, we've been their allies for years.

The only thing I’m surprised of is that people are seeing a genocide before their eyes being carried out with our tax dollars while our government claims not to have the money to provide world class subsidized healthcare - and they are shrugging or looking the other way. American citizens, why this DIRECTLY effects in their day to day, are choosing to look the other way.

You can see how this would be unnerving as someone who cares about my country and what’s becoming of it. The for profit war machine is costing literal lives.

As I said, it’s going to be a dark, dark stain on humanity. And we’re throwing our hands up.

 

[SamAndreas]

It’s one thing to supply arms.

It’s an entirely other thing to supply arms that are actively contributing to a genocide of a people.

That’s what’s happening in Gaza. It will undoubtedly be a black stain both on our nation and on humanity for allowing it to happen.

There is no “thin red line” for the US. It’s all PR fluff. And people like John Kirby play resident clown, repeating the same sad tired nonsense even as western media like CNN, NYT, and MSNBC are aghast.

He got grilled today by reporters. As he should. Anyone who excuses the enablement of genocide deserves it.

Why is it one thing to supply arms, and an entirely other thing to supply arms that are contributing to a "genocide" of a people, when contributing to a "genocide" of a people is the usual thing done with arms when wars break out???

If someone wants to they can look at almost any past war and find a genocide. Sometimes even a double both sides genocide going on like in Israel. Sometimes one can even find a genocide without there being a war.

Genocide is a relatively new word. Raphael Lemkin in 1944 coined it. He was a Polish activist who coined a new word to be used with his activism crusade.

We have other words with similar meaning. They were the words we used before. Like Kill. Or the phrase "rubbed out," that was how American Indians might phrase it. There are a vartable host of common euphemisms for it.

A common causal old west thing it was, rubbing whole native peoples out. Now it's called genocide, a new name for an old hat.

It's what war always has been like. I don't like war. I dread it. I've protested a lot of wars over the years, all of the ones which didn't meet reason.

Israel and Palestine going at it right now is a small war which is getting in the way of a much more important much larger war, a major inconvenience about that as far as I'm concerned.

The Russian/Ukrainian war is the big important war, one that meets reason, the reason is that we must fight and win it.

The only must fight and win war during my lifetime. WWII was the last one of those.

 

[Neworleansfan]

At this point, one needs to stop calling this as a war against Hamas but crimes against the Palestinian people.

 

[Heathen]

Why is it one thing to supply arms, and an entirely other thing to supply arms that are contributing to a "genocide" of a people, when contributing to a "genocide" of a people is the usual thing done with arms when wars break out???

Yeah, right. You tell me what “war” is happening right now and has happened since this conflict started.

It’s always been Israel vs the people of Palestine. Hamas is just a scapegoat, one that Israel created and has admitted to doing so. Israeli military officials have said so themselves, with spoken intentions of occupying more land than they’ve already stolen. I don’t have to prove it; it’s what is occurring in Gaza and the West Bank as we discuss this.

The writing is on the wall.

If someone wants to they can look at almost any past war and find a genocide. Sometimes even a double both sides genocide going on like in Israel. Sometimes one can even find a genocide without there being a war.

Genocides do occur, and they are a terrible part of humanity that we must commit to stopping. That doesn’t make this one that Israel is committing any less egregious.

Genocide is a relatively new word. Raphael Lemkin in 1944 coined it. He was a Polish activist who coined a new word to be used with his activism crusade.

We have other words with similar meaning. They were the words we used before. Like Kill. Or the phrase "rubbed out," that was how American Indians might phrase it. There are a vartable host of common euphemisms for it.

Activism crusade?

Maybe you didn’t mean that in a negative way, but that isn’t how I’d put it. Lemkin was escaping the horrors of the holocaust when he coined the phrase post WWII and pushed for the condemnation and definition of these actions including those against the Ottoman Armenians.

This is a good video if you haven’t seen it already explaining me around the term and its history:

A common causal old west thing it was, rubbing whole native peoples out. Now it's called genocide, a new name for an old hat.

It's what war always has been like. I don't like war. I dread it. I've protested a lot of wars over the years, all of the ones which didn't meet reason.

It isn’t war. It’s a deliberate extermination of a group of unarmed people based on who they are. A deliberate killing of those who are young, old, disabled, poor, pregnant, very ill, injured, or simply innocent of any military involvement.

So that isn’t “war”. This is precisely why the term was coined - so we couldn’t brush these crimes under the rug of war.

If you are just going to say that it all falls within “war” then you basically fail to ever condemn purposeful massacres of a specific group of people like the Jews during the Holocaust because hey…war happens.

A genocide is different. It isn’t a war. It’s not when one side is engaging against another. It’s when one side is purposefully targeting one group to get rid of based on their ethnic origin, race or nationality.

That literally fits the definition of what is occurring in Gaza.

Israel and Palestine going at it right now is a small war which is getting in the way of a much more important much larger war, a major inconvenience about that as far as I'm concerned.

The Russian/Ukrainian war is the big important war, one that meets reason, the reason is that we must fight and win it.

The only must fight and win war during my lifetime. WWII was the last one of those.

I’m worried about the war in which we’re spending billions and helping our ally massacre tens of thousands of children.

That’s my position and personally what I’m worried about. It doesn’t make any conflict less important, but it does bring to the forefront our country’s two faced approach to how we portray ourselves.

We care only about geopolitical interests. We may fight genocides, we may aid them.

A far cry for how the US and Holocaust survivors were portrayed at that time.

 

[SamAndreas]

Yeah, right. You tell me what “war” is happening right now and has happened since this conflict started.

It’s always been Israel vs the people of Palestine. Hamas is just a scapegoat, one that Israel created and has admitted to doing so. Israeli military officials have said so themselves, with spoken intentions of occupying more land than they’ve already stolen. I don’t have to prove it; it’s what is occurring in Gaza and the West Bank as we discuss this.

The writing is on the wall.



Genocides do occur, and they are a terrible part of humanity that we must commit to stopping. That doesn’t make this one that Israel is committing any less egregious.



Activism crusade?

Maybe you didn’t mean that in a negative way, but that isn’t how I’d put it. Lemkin was escaping the horrors of the holocaust when he coined the phrase post WWII and pushed for the condemnation and definition of these actions including those against the Ottoman Armenians.

This is a good video if you haven’t seen it already explaining me around the term and its history:





It isn’t war. It’s a deliberate extermination of a group of unarmed people based on who they are. A deliberate killing of those who are young, old, disabled, poor, pregnant, very ill, injured, or simply innocent of any military involvement.

So that isn’t “war”. This is precisely why the term was coined - so we couldn’t brush these crimes under the rug of war.

If you are just going to say that it all falls within “war” then you basically fail to ever condemn purposeful massacres of a specific group of people like the Jews during the Holocaust because hey…war happens.

A genocide is different. It isn’t a war. It’s not when one side is engaging against another. It’s when one side is purposefully targeting one group to get rid of based on their ethnic origin, race or nationality.

That literally fits the definition of what is occurring in Gaza.




I’m worried about the war in which we’re spending billions and helping our ally massacre tens of thousands of children.

That’s my position and personally what I’m worried about. It doesn’t make any conflict less important, but it does bring to the forefront our country’s two faced approach to how we portray ourselves.

We care only about geopolitical interests. We may fight genocides, we may aid them.

A far cry for how the US and Holocaust survivors were portrayed at that time.

Here's something to see. It's from a movie, and as I recall after this scene is over the boys grandmother and father when viewing the destruction the boy had done to the grandmothers home, the boy asked them about punishment, to which both the grandmother and father replied, "what good would that do?"

They were mystified, "what good would that do." They tried to comfort and console the boy. His mother had just died from a long painful illness. They understood the ununderstandable and understood it within moments of being shocked by what the boy had done. That's as good as it gets.



I'm responding to an ununderstandable where the outcome is beyond my power in the only way I can, with a great deal of disconnect.

 

[DaveXA]

Ok? And what is a “secondary explosion” and what does it matter in any of this when the people there were in fact the targets of the terrorist IOF strikes.

I don't think it's as simple as you're making it out to be. It's clear that you're supporting the Palestinians, which is fine. But as with a lot of things, there's more to the story, and it's a long complex history that culminated into what's happening currently. That said, I'm simply saying that when a bomb is dropped and intended to kill Hamas operatives, there inevitably collateral damage. Every war has it. Some more than others, even in the same war.

Allegedly the bomb hit fuel storage of some sort and that ignited a large fire that destroyed a large area and killing dozens of people. It's terrible, and like I said, there's no excuse for it.

I've said for months that Israel needs to slow their roll, but they haven't. We as a country can and should try to do more to mitigate the damage, but politically, (morally is a different thing) we'd be in a difficult situation if Israel were abandoned. A lot of people support Israel in the US and there's no way around that.

I'd like to see Israel support a change of leadership, but who knows if they paik another like or worse than Bibi. I hope not, but there are always risks associated with regime change.

Truly not trying to argue, and you seem to be a genuinely good person - so I definitely don’t want any of this taken as any personal affront.., I just can’t fathom why there’s a “but” in all of this after talking about the terror attacks on Rafah’s children.

I understand what you're saying and acknowledge that a lot of what we're seeing is awful. War is hell, and I do tale issue with you not characterizing it as such. Yes there are a lot of unarmed citizens, but there's no denying that there is resistance and fighting going on and Hamas has armed fighters shooting RPGs and leaving behind IEDs and booby traps in abandoned buildings. It's mostly a lopsided fight, but that has often been the case in previous conflicts.

Israel is a terrorist state.

I can't agree with this. They may be taking unjustified actions, but I'm not labeling them a terrorist state. I dont call Palestinians terrorists because of Hamas, of whom are mostly Palestinian individuals. I might agree that Bibi is a terrorist, but not the state of Issrael.

They continue to carry out terrorist acts every day against civilians. Period. I really am scratching my head to understand how it’s any other way when the proverbial writing is indeed on the wall, and has been for 8 months.

You can’t treat people as subhuman and torture, arrest, imprison and impoverish them for 70 years then wipe out 40,000 of these people and expect not to be called what you are.

Again, there's more to this than what you're laying out. It's a decidedly one-sided view. And that's fine as a defense of Palestinians, but there's a reason they got here. Is it mostly Israel? Ad I see it, yes, but Palestinians have to own their part in the conflict too.

And do you question this..at all?

Of course I do.

The IOF are clearly using US weapons to target civilians in order to wipe Gaza clean of Palestinian people and occupy the land. That IS ethnic cleansing and genocide. The evidence is there.

I'm not entirely convinced Israel will redevelop and inhabit Gaza. I think eventually they will allow Gazans to return. If that doesn't happen, I'll agree.

Israel could insert “there were Hamas operatives there” and would that give them the excuse to kill 200 people to purportedly target 1 Hamas member?

i dont know, I don't make those decisions and wouldn't want to. Collateral damage is a subjective topic among military decision malers. It would depend on the value of the target most likely and whether the attack would lead to significant collateral damage.

That is morally wrong. Horrifically wrong. Yet we continue to excuse it.

I'm not going to excuse it. What Bibi is doing is wrong.

Because that is indeed what they are doing. This has been their way to excuse genocide.

I see you use this word a lot and we've discussed this before, but i dont agree that its genocide.

Claim Hamas is in refugee camps where Israel told Palestinians to go, claim Hamas is in the hospitals full of dying people as an excuse to commit massacres, claim Hamas is around ambulances full of the bleeding out,. We cannot keep buying this lie.

We can go over case after case after case of Israel doing this. There are likely hundreds now. Should we?

No, we don't need to. We just won't agree here.

How many cases are enough to firmly say that a terrorist does NOT have good intentions?

I don't know. Who gets to decide that?

The only thing I’m surprised of is that people are seeing a genocide before their eyes being carried out with our tax dollars while our government claims not to have the money to provide world class subsidized healthcare - and they are shrugging or looking the other way. American citizens, why this DIRECTLY effects in their day to day, are choosing to look the other way.

The simple reason is because people don't believe what is happening is genocide. You can keep repeating and making the argument, but people are gonna buy it because you say it.

You can see how this would be unnerving as someone who cares about my country and what’s becoming of it. The for profit war$ machine is costing literal lives.

Sure, i can see it, and its certainly understandable. I can see why you'd feel that way.

As I said, it’s going to be a dark, dark stain on humanity. And we’re throwing our hands up.

It may end up that way. Only time will tell. Hopefully people pressure Bibi to stop the war and find a better way forward.