Israel vs Hamas (2 Viewers)

[GrandAdmiral]

Looks like the fight is on with Israeli soldiers and civilians amongst the dead already. Question becomes, how long before we get dragged into this?

Netanyahu says Israel is ‘at war’ after Hamas launches surprise attack, takes hostages | CNN

Israel’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu declared that the country was “at war” on Saturday, after Palestinian militants in Gaza fired a deadly barrage of rockets and sent gunmen into Israeli territory in a major escalation of the long running conflict between the two sides.

www.cnn.com

 

[DaveXA]

EXCLUSIVE: ICC seeks arrest warrants against Sinwar and Netanyahu for war crimes over October 7 attack and Gaza war | CNN

The International Criminal Court is seeking the arrest warrants on charges of war crimes and crimes against humanity over the October 7 attacks on Israel and the subsequent war in Gaza.

www.cnn.com

I thought this happened already? I mean, the ICC had already made similar statements in the past? Or am I thinking of something else?

 

[Heathen]

I thought this happened already? I mean, the ICC had already made similar statements in the past? Or am I thinking of something else?

There had been murmurs about it possibly happening, which is why it was reported that Netanyahu was working with the US to try to pressure the ICC not to bring charges:

https://www.reuters.com/world/biden-says-icc-move-arrest-warrants-israeli-leaders-outrageous-2024-05-20/

Looks like the ICC decided to formally do that today anyway.

 

[DaveXA]

There had been murmurs about it possibly happening, which is why it was reported that Netanyahu was working with the US to try to pressure the ICC not to bring charges:

https://www.reuters.com/world/biden-says-icc-move-arrest-warrants-israeli-leaders-outrageous-2024-05-20/

Looks like the ICC decided to formally do that today anyway.

Well, at least they issued arrest warrants for both leaders, but practically speaking, don't see how they'll ever execute those warrants considering neither side would willingly submit to those orders.

 

[Heathen]

Well, at least they issued arrest warrants for both leaders,

I don’t think that they’d have a reason not to.

Now, numbers wise, Netanyahu is objectively much worse, having led the genocide of 40,000+ - but there is no doubt Sinwar belongs in prison with him.

Note that the ICC also seeking warrants for Israel’s defense minister as well as two other Hamas leaders.

but practically speaking, don't see how they'll ever execute those warrants considering neither side would willingly submit to those orders.

They probably won’t, but that isn’t necessarily the entire point. I think the ICC was set up with that in mind.

Again, I don’t think that the purpose of the warrants are necessarily to actively pursue
these individuals knowing countries wouldn’t comply or rather, I don’t think the expectation is that that would happen.

Legally, if one of these leaders travels to a country that abide by the ICC regulation then yes, that country would have the ability to arrest them.

I think the point of the ICC, if that is what you are getting at, is more so to set a precedent for worldwide agreement war crimes as a “last resort” when certain countries like Israel or Russia won’t do it themselves, and has had a discernible effect on these cases in different capacities.

More information on that here:
20 years on, the International Criminal Court is doing more good than its critics claim

Read more under the section about Putin here:

The Role of the International Criminal Court

The ICC was created to bring justice to the world’s worst war criminals, but debate over the court still rages.

www.cfr.org

 

[DaveXA]

I don’t think that they’d have a reason not to.

Now, numbers wise, Netanyahu is objectively much worse, having led the genocide of 40,000+ - but there is no doubt Sinwar belongs in prison with him.

Note that the ICC also seeking warrants for Israel’s defense minister as well as two other Hamas leaders.



They probably won’t, but that isn’t necessarily the entire point. I think the ICC was set up with that in mind.

Again, I don’t think that the purpose of the warrants are necessarily to actively pursue
these individuals knowing countries wouldn’t comply or rather, I don’t think the expectation is that that would happen.

Legally, if one of these leaders travels to a country that abide by the ICC regulation then yes, that country would have the ability to arrest them.

I think the point of the ICC, if that is what you are getting at, is more so to set a precedent for worldwide agreement war crimes as a “last resort” when certain countries like Israel or Russia won’t do it themselves, and has had a discernible effect on these cases in different capacities.

More information on that here:
20 years on, the International Criminal Court is doing more good than its critics claim

Read more under the section about Putin here:

The Role of the International Criminal Court

The ICC was created to bring justice to the world’s worst war criminals, but debate over the court still rages.

www.cfr.org

Yeah, that all makes sense. Not saying they aren't doing much good. Just saying that in this case, there's not much we can expect from this beyond lip service. Their scope is somewhat limited to the countries accountable to the group.

 

[Heathen]

 

[samiam5211]

You could show this video to the President, and he'd talk about a video he saw where Hamas attacked a truck driver trying to deliver aid to starving babies.

 

[SaintForLife]

When we do it vs when they do it:

Blinken calls ICC warrants 'wrongheaded,' says they complicate efforts for Israel-Hamas cease-fire deal

Blinken said the ICC prosecutor's actions make a "shameful equivalence" between Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar.

abcnews-go-com.cdn.ampproject.org

Blinken calls on European governments to detain Vladimir Putin if he visits, turn him over to ICC | Fox News

www-foxnews-com.cdn.ampproject.org

Biden Orders U.S. to Share Evidence of Russian War Crimes With Hague Court

The step signals a major shift in American policy and ends months of resistance by Pentagon officials who feared setting a precedent that could pave the way for the court to prosecute U.S. troops.

www.nytimes.com

Biden Slams ICC Arrest Warrant Request For Netanyahu As ‘Outrageous’

President Joe Biden said in a statement Monday morning that there is “no equivalence” between Hamas and Israel, despite the joint arrest warrant request.

www.forbes.com

 

[SaintForLife]

 

[SamAndreas]

You could show this video to the President, and he'd talk about a video he saw where Hamas attacked a truck driver trying to deliver aid to starving babies.

That's so sad. It reminded me of the Rodney King beating in LA.

The current Israeli President is Isaac "Bougie" Herzog, he's OK. He's of the opposition to that Evil Knievel Netanyahu, he's a decent liberal in Israel. He wouldn't do as you are saying he would do.

That would be hard being him, kind of like the hard of being a lonely Democrat Rep, stranded in red hot Idaho USA with the KKK surrounding him in their hoods and ceremonial robes.

So it would probably be gratifying to show him this video because he'd be with you insofar as his feelings, or at least somewhat closer than it would be if you disliked them all. He's as good as you are going to find over there.

He's not quite a Joe Biden liberal though, who's even closer to your point of view about the innocent Palestinian people.

 

[SaintForLife]

More in the thread

 

[SamAndreas]

When we do it vs when they do it:

Blinken calls ICC warrants 'wrongheaded,' says they complicate efforts for Israel-Hamas cease-fire deal

Blinken said the ICC prosecutor's actions make a "shameful equivalence" between Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar.

abcnews-go-com.cdn.ampproject.org

Blinken calls on European governments to detain Vladimir Putin if he visits, turn him over to ICC | Fox News

www-foxnews-com.cdn.ampproject.org

Biden Orders U.S. to Share Evidence of Russian War Crimes With Hague Court

The step signals a major shift in American policy and ends months of resistance by Pentagon officials who feared setting a precedent that could pave the way for the court to prosecute U.S. troops.

www.nytimes.com

Biden Slams ICC Arrest Warrant Request For Netanyahu As ‘Outrageous’

President Joe Biden said in a statement Monday morning that there is “no equivalence” between Hamas and Israel, despite the joint arrest warrant request.

www.forbes.com

Do you not know why the USA doesn't ice skate with the ICC?

It's because it would violate our Constitution to allow the ICC jurisdiction over our lands and citizens is why. A serious breach which would require the US, us, to pass an amendment to The, (our), Constitution to allow the ICC jurisdiction over US citizens.

Which will probably be enacted on the coldest day on record in the unholiest corner of Hell. NOT going to happen during our lifetimes.

So why don't you quit shooting yourself in the foot over this foolishness?

It's a silly position for you to take. It's a thing both Democrats and Republicans have always been able for both to support.

Supporting The, (our,) Constitution I mean.

 

[DaveXA]

Do you not know why the USA doesn't ice skate with the ICC?

It's because it would violate our Constitution to allow the ICC jurisdiction over our lands and citizens is why. A serious breach which would require the US, us, to pass an amendment to The, (our), Constitution to allow the ICC jurisdiction over US citizens.

Which will probably be enacted on the coldest day on record in the unholiest corner of Hell. NOT going to happen during our lifetimes.

So why don't you quit shooting yourself in the foot over this foolishness?

It's a silly position for you to take. It's a thing both Democrats and Republicans have always been able for both to support.

Supporting The, (our,) Constitution I mean.

Those dummies don't have a clue what's in the Constitution, much less know what it means.

 

[Heathen]

Do you not know why the USA doesn't ice skate with the ICC?

It's because it would violate our Constitution to allow the ICC jurisdiction over our lands and citizens is why. A serious breach which would require the US, us, to pass an amendment to The, (our), Constitution to allow the ICC jurisdiction over US citizens.

Which will probably be enacted on the coldest day on record in the unholiest corner of Hell. NOT going to happen during our lifetimes.

So why don't you quit shooting yourself in the foot over this foolishness?

It's a silly position for you to take. It's a thing both Democrats and Republicans have always been able for both to support.

Supporting The, (our,) Constitution I mean.

IMHO I do think you’re missing the point of what the ICC is.

No one ever claimed that it was an entity that held jurisdiction over any citizen or country or had that intention - at least in the sense that the ICC could ever force a nation through judicial process or any other measure (besides maybe peer pressure) to comply. That’s silly. It was never designed to be that way in the first place.

It seemed to me like the comment was more about the double standard..but, moving on..

The existence of the ICC has always been propped up by those nations who support a shared agreement on certain crimes against humanity. The ICC is meant to be a deterrent, not an authority over any sovereign nation. In establishing a growing consensus, the ICC can set a precedent that pressures rogue nations into changing what they are doing.

If the US agrees with the ICC and many of the international community’s shared definition of war crimes - that’s when the US as a member nation would agree to send an accused citizen to trial.

Everyone knows the ICC couldn’t and won’t enforce things against member states that don’t comply. How could they and why would they waste their time?

Second, I think it’s quite a fair objection to say that we have a very clear double standard when it comes to both our relationship with the ICC and leaders of nations who willingly commit terror.

Biden is still going out of his way to say that the genocide claims are bogus and that the ICC is out of line even as the number slaughtered by Israel approaches 50K. Do you think he’d come to the same defense of Hamas leaders, who have not killed anywhere in the same ballpark?

You get my drift.

It’s hard at this point to not see hypocrisy from the US govt across the board as a citizen. I know that varies, sure, but it’s becoming unavoidable. What is your opinion on the way the US has handled Putin vs Netanyahu?

In the very, and I mean VERY least, the US is disingenuous in their framing of this conflict after encouraging the ICC’s decision on Putin.

Yuck.

 

[SamAndreas]

IMHO I do think you’re missing the point of what the ICC is.

No one ever claimed that it was an entity that held jurisdiction over any citizen or country or had that intention - at least in the sense that the ICC could ever force a nation through judicial process or any other measure (besides maybe peer pressure) to comply. That’s silly. It was never designed to be that way in the first place.

It seemed to me like the comment was more about the double standard..but, moving on..

The existence of the ICC has always been propped up by those nations who support a shared agreement on certain crimes against humanity. The ICC is meant to be a deterrent, not an authority over any sovereign nation. In establishing a growing consensus, the ICC can set a precedent that pressures rogue nations into changing what they are doing.

If the US agrees with the ICC and many of the international community’s shared definition of war crimes - that’s when the US as a member nation would agree to send an accused citizen to trial.

Everyone knows the ICC couldn’t and won’t enforce things against member states that don’t comply. How could they and why would they waste their time?

Second, I think it’s quite a fair objection to say that we have a very clear double standard when it comes to both our relationship with the ICC and leaders of nations who willingly commit terror.

Biden is still going out of his way to say that the genocide claims are bogus and that the ICC is out of line even as the number slaughtered by Israel approaches 50K. Do you think he’d come to the same defense of Hamas leaders, who have not killed anywhere in the same ballpark?

You get my drift.

It’s hard at this point to not see hypocrisy from the US govt across the board as a citizen. I know that varies, sure, but it’s becoming unavoidable. What is your opinion on the way the US has handled Putin vs Netanyahu?

In the very, and I mean VERY least, the US is disingenuous in their framing of this conflict after encouraging the ICC’s decision on Putin.

Yuck.

Well, I told you how it is.

Then you told me how it ought to be.

Now we're discussing that blasted is - ought problem again.

No one has ever solved that problem.

Is–ought problem - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Nor has anyone ever solved this problem:

It's kind of the same problem. Ms. Is and Mr. Ought simply cannot work it out. See how messy it is.

 

[GrandAdmiral]

Do you not know why the USA doesn't ice skate with the ICC?

It's because it would violate our Constitution to allow the ICC jurisdiction over our lands and citizens is why. A serious breach which would require the US, us, to pass an amendment to The, (our), Constitution to allow the ICC jurisdiction over US citizens.

Which will probably be enacted on the coldest day on record in the unholiest corner of Hell. NOT going to happen during our lifetimes.

So why don't you quit shooting yourself in the foot over this foolishness?

It's a silly position for you to take. It's a thing both Democrats and Republicans have always been able for both to support.

Supporting The, (our,) Constitution I mean.

I don't disagree with any of this because it's absolutely true. We can never join the ICC without amending the Constitution, and we shouldn't. However, the point in those links show the administration's hypocrisy when it comes to the ICC. It's ok when the ICC goes after an enemy such as Putin (rightfully so). But an US ally that our own report stated likely violated international law...?

***hiss, hiss...*** ***grrrr...*** SANCTIONS NOW!!! Do we sanction France for agreeing with them too?

That's the definition of hypocrisy.
(There I go agreeing with SFL again...)

 

[samiam5211]

That's so sad. It reminded me of the Rodney King beating in LA.

The current Israeli President is Isaac "Bougie" Herzog, he's OK. He's of the opposition to that Evil Knievel Netanyahu, he's a decent liberal in Israel. He wouldn't do as you are saying he would do.

That would be hard being him, kind of like the hard of being a lonely Democrat Rep, stranded in red hot Idaho USA with the KKK surrounding him in their hoods and ceremonial robes.

So it would probably be gratifying to show him this video because he'd be with you insofar as his feelings, or at least somewhat closer than it would be if you disliked them all. He's as good as you are going to find over there.

He's not quite a Joe Biden liberal though, who's even closer to your point of view about the innocent Palestinian people.

I was talking about Grandpa Joe the Zionist when i said "President"

 

[GrandAdmiral]

The latest nugget...

Spain, Norway and Ireland will recognize a Palestinian state | CNN

Spain, Norway and Ireland have announced plans to formally recognize a Palestinian state, in a move that is likely to bolster the global Palestinian cause but strain relations with Israel.

www.cnn.com