Israel vs Hamas (4 Viewers)

[GrandAdmiral]

Looks like the fight is on with Israeli soldiers and civilians amongst the dead already. Question becomes, how long before we get dragged into this?

Netanyahu says Israel is ‘at war’ after Hamas launches surprise attack, takes hostages | CNN

Israel’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu declared that the country was “at war” on Saturday, after Palestinian militants in Gaza fired a deadly barrage of rockets and sent gunmen into Israeli territory in a major escalation of the long running conflict between the two sides.

www.cnn.com

 

[GrandAdmiral]

I think this goes a little too far. Banning government officials? That's fine. But there are plenty Israeli citizens who don't support what's going on in Gaza as well (as evidenced in the recent protests). Don't punish them.

Maldives to ban Israelis from entering country amid war in Gaza | CNN

The Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs has recommended Israelis to avoid traveling to the Indian Ocean tourism hotspot following news of the ban.

www.cnn.com

 

[GrandAdmiral]

Agreed, in Utah. Though I think we have some bright young Democratic senators coming up I’ll be voting for.

If I'm forced to vote for the Republican or Cleo Fields in this new district, I'm voting Republican.

 

[DaveXA]

If I'm forced to vote for the Republican or Cleo Fields in this new district, I'm voting Republican.

Yeah, ewww, that would suck.

 

[LA - L.A.]

Not sure if that helps?

It doesn't help at all. You wrote several paragraphs without giving a straightforward answer to a straightforward question. I don't tolerate or trust people who put a lot of effort and time into being ambiguous when asked straightforward questions.

I'll ask you another variation on this straightforward question again.

Do you think that the people of Gaza, and the people in and around Israel who are not Jewish, would suffer worse human rights violations with Trump as president than they are with Biden as president?

 

[Heathen]

It doesn't help at all. You wrote several paragraphs without giving a straightforward answer to a straightforward question. I don't tolerate or trust people who put a lot of effort and time into being ambiguous when asked straightforward questions.

Well, I could respond to an ad hominem like this in many different ways.

I think the route I will go here is to advise you not to be so assumptive. Ask the clarifying questions instead of directly attacking my character. I think you’ll find that I’m quite reasonable most of the time, and never had any thoughts behind being intentionally vague.

I'll ask you another variation on this straightforward question again.

Do you think that the people of Gaza, and the people in and around Israel who are not Jewish, would suffer worse human rights violations with Trump as president than they are with Biden as president?

I’d have appreciated if you had lead with this instead.

Anyway, I have answered this probably four or five times now: probably so, based on what I have seen.

Is this not an answer that is good enough for you? If not, why?

 

[Heathen]

Israel is now saying they will create another group to replace the group they created (Hamas).

What could possibly go wrong?

Gallant says Israel working on ‘a different government’ to replace Hamas in Gaza

* * *

www.timesofisrael.com

 

[SamAndreas]

Strong feelings on important matters that watch affect all of us negatively, in summation.

There are many posters I’ve seen that hold opinions that are very much antithetical to mine. I ignore them, mostly.

We are discussing topics that many of us care about that are political in nature. If critiquing candidates of one’s own party for bad policies that greatly affect American lives is discouraged on this site, maybe id missed that. I’d be happy to abide by site rules if you think I’m violating them.

Oh gosh no. Nothing like that.

You have an opinion and I have an opinion.

 

[SamAndreas]

If I'm forced to vote for the Republican or Cleo Fields in this new district, I'm voting Republican.

I never heard of him, I read the wikipedia entry both for him and for that district. From that he looked OK.

What's wrong with him that you would scorn him so?

 

[SamAndreas]

Israel is now saying they will create another group to replace the group they created (Hamas).

What could possibly go wrong?

Gallant says Israel working on ‘a different government’ to replace Hamas in Gaza

* * *

www.timesofisrael.com

I think it is kind of a conspiracy theory that Israel created Hamas. Palestinians clearly created Hamas, a one time majority of Palestinians voted them in.

It was kind of like the Nazi election in Germany, once voted in, voting stopped. I regard them as terrorists, about as warm and fuzzy as the Taliban or ISIS.

Their name Hamas basically means Islamic Resistance Movement. A hell of a name for a government, but a good name for terrorists, which they indeed are.

I realize the Israelis are being terrorists too.

My opinion of Yoav Gallant is about middle of the spectrum. He's a retired General. I'm not at all surprised by what he said due to his background.

I believe he genuinely does feel the way he has stated it. I don't think it's fair to say "Israel is now saying ... ". As you have stated it.

Voav Gallant said it.


I see his point. There might be a way for Palestinians to have a government of their own, absent the Islamic Resistance Movement pretending to be the Palestinian people's government.


Israel has to change how they treat innocent Palestinian People, i.e. quit being terrorists.

However I can see why Gallant thinks Israel has rub out that terrorist organization which is pretending to be Gaza's government at this point in time. Probably most of the military officer corp in Israel feels that way.



I hope Biden's plan works. His plan is less military minded. But I do think Biden also realizes that Hamas has to in effect surrender their goal of pushing Israel into the sea.

Israel's government may not continue to be terrorists, nor may Hamas to continue to be a terrorist organization pretending to be a government who represents the entire Palestinian people.

It won't be the end of the world if Hamas has to surrender and be disbanded as a terrorist organization. That's as essential as Israel no longer continuing to be an apartheid state who uses terror to oppress the Palestinian people while they battle with Hamas.

 

[DaveXA]

I never heard of him, I read the wikipedia entry both for him and for that district. From that he looked OK.

What's wrong with him that you would scorn him so?

He's a crook and a con man. At least he was a lot of years ago. Got caught red handed by the FBI on video taking bribes from then governor Edwin Edwards. Iirc, he was never charged, but should have been. Edwards was the primary target and ended up getting sent to prison while Fields was embarrassed by the whole thing.

I wouldn't trust him in any position of authority.

And I haven't looked into it in a while, but he's had other issues as well.

 

[Incumbent]

I think it is kind of a conspiracy theory that Israel created Hamas. Palestinians clearly created Hamas, a one time majority of Palestinians voted them in.

It was kind of like the Nazi election in Germany, once voted in, voting stopped. I regard them as terrorists, about as warm and fuzzy as the Taliban or ISIS.

Their name Hamas basically means Islamic Resistance Movement. A hell of a name for a government, but a good name for terrorists, which they indeed are.

I realize the Israelis are being terrorists too.

My opinion of Yoav Gallant is about middle of the spectrum. He's a retired General. I'm not at all surprised by what he said due to his background.

I believe he genuinely does feel the way he has stated it. I don't think it's fair to say "Israel is now saying ... ". As you have stated it.

Voav Gallant said it.


I see his point. There might be a way for Palestinians to have a government of their own, absent the Islamic Resistance Movement pretending to be the Palestinian people's government.


Israel has to change how they treat innocent Palestinian People, i.e. quit being terrorists.

However I can see why Gallant thinks Israel has rub out that terrorist organization which is pretending to be Gaza's government at this point in time. Probably most of the military officer corp in Israel feels that way.



I hope Biden's plan works. His plan is less military minded. But I do think Biden also realizes that Hamas has to in effect surrender their goal of pushing Israel into the sea.

Israel's government may not continue to be terrorists, nor may Hamas to continue to be a terrorist organization pretending to be a government who represents the entire Palestinian people.

It won't be the end of the world if Hamas has to surrender and be disbanded as a terrorist organization. That's as essential as Israel no longer continuing to be an apartheid state who uses terror to oppress the Palestinian people while they battle with Hamas.

People who acknowledge the blame that falls on both sides, and recognize the complexity of perpetual Middle East conflict, are the only ones attempting to see this clearly.

A fault that exists in segments of progressivism is how dismissive of radical Islam some people can be. There are notable conflicts of interest between what the progressive movement purports to champion and much of the ruling structure of Islamic nations. Even in a relatively peaceful place like the UAE, homosexuality is illegal, punishable by prison, for example.

Israeli leadership is certainly guilty of decades of wrongdoing, but so, too, are the extremist groups and governments at odds with them.

Hamas also aren’t the good guys and they don’t care about the welfare of the Palestinian people, either. They should surrender immediately in a war they cannot win.

 

[Incumbent]

And I’ll add, American presence and involvement is likely the primary reason this hasn’t expanded into a far bloodier regional or global conflict already. As awful as Netanyahu is, abandoning Israel would very likely create a power vacuum and be viewed as an opportunity by radical regimes.

 

[Heathen]

People who acknowledge the blame that falls on both sides, and recognize the complexity of perpetual Middle East conflict, are the only ones attempting to see this clearly.

So to be clear, the title of this thread and scope is what has happened since October 7th. Sure, no one is denying that there is a long and complex history between these two groups.

But if you are saying that the events since October 7th have not been one sided, then I’ll quite emphatically disagree.

Maybe you misinterpreted something I or others have said. In any case, I’m quite happy to clear that up.

A fault that runs through segments of progressivism is how dismissive of radical Islam some people can be. There are notable conflicts of interest between what the progressive movement purports to champion and much of the ruling structure of Islamic nations. Even in a relatively peaceful place like the UAE, homosexuality is illegal, punishable by prison, for example.

I’m not sure who you’re talking about specifically. That certainly wouldn’t apply to me.

Israeli leadership is certainly guilty of decades of wrongdoing, but so, too, are the extremist groups and governments at odds with them.

Hamas also aren’t the good guys and they don’t care about the welfare of the Palestinian people, either. They should surrender immediately in a war they cannot win.

But the point is that they though they are both guilty, they aren’t equal in terms of the level of crimes they have committed. The terrorist Israeli regime have committed much more atrocities, numbers wise, than Hamas. Unless you believe that does not matter?

 

[Incumbent]

So to be clear, the title of this thread and scope is what has happened since October 7th. Sure, no one is denying that there is a long and complex history between these two groups.

But if you are saying that the events since October 7th have not been one sided, then I’ll quite emphatically disagree.

Maybe you misinterpreted something I or others have said. In any case, I’m quite happy to clear that up.




I’m not sure who you’re talking about specifically. That certainly wouldn’t apply to me.



But the point is that they though they are both guilty, they aren’t equal in terms of the level of crimes they have committed. The terrorist Israeli regime have committed much more atrocities, numbers wise, than Hamas. Unless you believe that does not matter?

I don’t agree that the title should limit what we consider and how we approach the topic. That’s a restriction you want to impose.

Israel has been heavier-handed in its response to a group that wants Israel’s destruction. That’s the context.

You’ve made it seemingly clear that you don’t want to understand any of this beyond Israel’s guilt. Do you recognize that Hamas is a terrorist group that wants to eliminate the Israeli people? Seeing the shared blame and contempt is the only way to begin to understand this.

 

[GrandAdmiral]

He's a crook and a con man. At least he was a lot of years ago. Got caught red handed by the FBI on video taking bribes from then governor Edwin Edwards. Iirc, he was never charged, but should have been. Edwards was the primary target and ended up getting sent to prison while Fields was embarrassed by the whole thing.

I wouldn't trust him in any position of authority.

And I haven't looked into it in a while, but he's had other issues as well.

I'm convinced he flipped on Edwards and that's why he didn't get arrested when you clearly see those two passing envelopes of money back and forth. IIRC, he was an unindicted conspirator.

And he definitely has a history to should have left him in jail. Our CFO worked at the state capital early in her career and she too shared stories that would make one wonder why this fool isn't behind bars.

 

[GrandAdmiral]

Do you recognize that Hamas is a terrorist group that wants to eliminate the Israeli people?

No one has ever claimed that they were not in this thread. But Hamas being a terrorist group doesn't excuse Israel for what they've done since. They've been reckless beyond reproach, but apparently that's ok.

 

[Incumbent]

No one has ever claimed that they were not in this thread. But Hamas being a terrorist group doesn't excuse Israel for what they've done since. They've been reckless beyond reproach, but apparently that's ok.

It’s not “ok” and I’m not taking that position. I don’t think anybody else here is doing that, either.

What I’m saying is this is all far more complicated than just repeating over and over that Israel is a terrorist state committing genocide. Narrowing it in such a restrictive way ignores a very relevant and complex history, and also diminishes the atrocities carried out by Hamas against Palestinians and Israelis, and supported by other radical Islamic regimes. It also ignores the intentions of Hamas, which are plainly genocidal. They want Israel eradicated, and should the US outright abandon Israel, that would almost certainly invite an eventual regional war to accomplish that stated goal. Hamas, for as long as it exists, is a threat to Israel and a threat to the Palestinian people.

I don’t think a strong defense can be made for either side, and I understand the very difficult position this has put the Biden administration in. I also realize that of Hamas, the Israeli government, and Biden administration, the only one that seems genuinely committed to finding a peaceful resolution is the Biden administration. A peaceful resolution that has evaded leaders here and there for generations.

 

[DaveXA]

I'm convinced he flipped on Edwards and that's why he didn't get arrested when you clearly see those two passing envelopes of money back and forth. IIRC, he was an unindicted conspirator.

And he definitely has a history to should have left him in jail. Our CFO worked at the state capital early in her career and she too shared stories that would make one wonder why this fool isn't behind bars.

Oh, no doubt he flipped. I can't imagine any other way he'd avoided being charged there. He's definitely got some skeletons.