Israel vs Hamas (8 Viewers)

[GrandAdmiral]

Looks like the fight is on with Israeli soldiers and civilians amongst the dead already. Question becomes, how long before we get dragged into this?

Netanyahu says Israel is ‘at war’ after Hamas launches surprise attack, takes hostages | CNN

Israel’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu declared that the country was “at war” on Saturday, after Palestinian militants in Gaza fired a deadly barrage of rockets and sent gunmen into Israeli territory in a major escalation of the long running conflict between the two sides.

www.cnn.com

 

[efil4]

This is definitely a good topic for debate

So are you saying by having a military and declaring war and declaring “careful intent”, one cannot by definition commit terrorist acts?

no they cant- War, by definition, trumps "terrorism" in any way, shape or form. War, when fought as such, is unbridled aggression and designed to inflict massive losses until the opposition is either combat ineffective or wiped out.

Legally war is different from terrorism.

Why do you believe them?

AGain, I dont need Israel to tell me what Hamas does within Palestine. Its all out there to be found if you look.

What if my aim is to kill 5 of the worst people on Earth in a town of 10,000 people? Is killing 80% of that town to kill the 5 acceptable because “war is hard” and “bad things happen”?

Is that not terrorism?

Are you at war with the town of 10,000? if so, then no its not.

However, if you wake one morning, without provocation, and enter that town to kill, wound and kidnap as many as you can and then return as soon as possible to your home base, with no real intent to capture or kill those 5 people, thats terrorism. ( and could be viewed as an "Act of war" )

I don’t know what you mean by 1940’s style.

WWII warfare is what i meant.

 

[Incumbent]

Do you not think that Israel’s larger goal is to destroy and occupy Gaza and the West Bank? There is evidence a mile long that basically aligns with Israel being propped up as a nation that speaks to a consistent theme of religious extremism.

I mean we could literally look at a shrinking map of Palestinian territory since the 40’s.

Certainly. I’ve acknowledged that Israel has been a bad actor for a long time. I have said repeatedly that I blame both sides. Hamas states they want Israel eradicated and Israel’s ongoing actions indicate the same, if unspoken, goal.

If we can move away from the war for a moment, and try and imagine some form of a peaceful coexistence, should it matter that Israel is the lone Jewish state in a region that is otherwise home to numerous Islamic countries? Do you think a Jewish state should be allowed to exist in the Middle East? If so, how would you describe a way that could work?

 

[GrandAdmiral]

Im sure many view it the same way.


Israels stated goal is to eliminate Hamas.

Hamas members moved into that same location.

The strike was not intended to kill as many civilians as possible to sow fear and chaos- it was intended to kill Hamas members.

So you're of the opinion that killing those 45 people, including women and children, was justified simply because it killed two Hamas members?

 

[Heathen]

What reason do you have to believe anything Hamas reports?

I don’t.

I don’t think either side can be trusted so unless there are independent, unbiased observers in the combat zone, we are left to trust what either side is willing to admit, or sort out who is telling the truth in their accusations.

Right. Though I do think the numbers coming out of Gaza are somewhat accurate. In fact, it could be much more. Looking at a satellite view of the devastation and knowing how many people were there before attacks started, it’s easy to see how those numbers would be so high.

As it is, I definitely think Israel is being reckless and not doing enough to spare innocent lives. I think it’s possible to believe that and also understand that a war being waged in a densely populated arena is going to result in a lot of casualties, regrettably.

This is two awful leaderships going at each other at a deadly cost.

I understand and respect your thoughts on this, I just think that Israel is doing it on purpose and it’s not really a war - more of a blitzkrieg.

Real wars don’t involve soldiers in supposed combat zones playing with kids’ toys and clothes that they killed and posting on Instagram, blowing up homes while smoking cigars and watching the sunset getting drunk, having bonfires and dance parties, etc

 

[Heathen]

Hamas as repeatedly shown the world how they have no hesitation to operate within the safe zones using Palestinians as a human shield.

I dont need Israel to tell me how they operate. They operate in this manner, openly and without reservation for civilian lives.

I didn’t ask you about Hamas, I asked about Israel.

The question was “What reason do you have to believe anything Israel says?”

 

[efil4]

So you're of the opinion that killing those 45 people, including women and children, was justified simply because it killed two Hamas members?

Im not justifying anything.


im of the opinion that when you declare war, you mean war.

This is a direct result of war.

Its why so many people, including myself, are appalled at what war brings. Nothing but innocent death and destruction.

Again, we have been somewhat deprogrammed to what real war is. Laser guided bombs, "precision munitions" via GPS etc - while certainly an advance on dropping 10 "dumb bombs" to achieve what 1 guided bomb can do, its not fool-proof. And it certainly cannot discriminate foe from friendly/innocent.

 

[Incumbent]

Real wars don’t involve soldiers in supposed combat zones playing with kids’ toys and clothes that they killed and posting on Instagram, blowing up homes while smoking cigars and watching the sunset getting drunk, having bonfires and dance parties, etc

I’ve accepted the sad truth, and I bet you have, too, that regardless of beliefs, nationality, religion, race, ethnicity - there are truly awful people in this world. Many of them put on uniforms and kill people. Ours, there’s, everybody’s.

 

[efil4]

I didn’t ask you about Hamas, I asked about Israel.

The question was “What reason do you have to believe anything Israel says?”

I didnt come here to discuss the words or actions of Hamas or Israel in this conflict.

I came to remind you all that Israel declared war. With all they could bring to bear ( because when you declare war, thats what you do ) and this is what we are now witness to.

As brutal, barbaric and devastating as it could be.

 

[Heathen]

Certainly. I’ve acknowledged that Israel has been a bad actor for a long time. I have said repeatedly that I blame both sides. Hamas states they want Israel eradicated and Israel’s ongoing actions indicate the same, if unspoken, goal.

If we can move away from the war for a moment, and try and imagine some form of a peaceful coexistence, should it matter that Israel is the lone Jewish state in a region that is otherwise home to numerous Islamic countries? Do you think a Jewish state should be allowed to exist in the Middle East? If so, how would you describe a way that could work?

And again to clarify, I’m not saying both sides don’t deserve blame. Certainly they do. I’m saying that Israel is deserving of a label of committing genocide and terrorism for what’s happened in the last 8 months. Hamas is also a terrorist entity and they are guilty for the terrorism they have acted out. I do not want the US supporting any religious extremist nation, but of course it doesn’t work that way and coexistence in a peaceful world takes a backseat to power and geopolitics.

Anyway - Should they be allowed to exist and live in peace as Jews in the Middle East? Absolutely. And we should defend their right to do so not just because are allies, but because they are people who are targets for religious extremism in the form of violence and mistreatment.

 

[efil4]

, I just think that Israel is doing it on purpose and it’s not really a war - more of a blitzkrieg.

Real wars don’t involve soldiers in supposed combat zones playing with kids’ toys and clothes that they killed and posting on Instagram, blowing up homes while smoking cigars and watching the sunset getting drunk, having bonfires and dance parties, etc

its a blitzkrieg because their opponent is completely outmatched.

As for soldiers doing those things, its been happening since wars started. Only now its televised due to social media. ( and the fact that they are relatively unopposed by an opponent with a like-for-like military capability )

 

[Heathen]

Im not justifying anything.

im of the opinion that when you declare war, you mean war.

This is a direct result of war.

So do you think Israel has never intentionally killed civilians or tries not to do that?

War is never a free pass to kill as many civilians as you want. This is the reason entities like the ICC exist, though their power is very limited.

 

[Heathen]

As for soldiers doing those things, its been happening since wars started. Only now its televised due to social media. ( and the fact that they are relatively unopposed by an opponent with a like-for-like military capability )

You seem to be of the opinion of “it’s happened before and these things are hard, so you shouldn’t be surprised it’s happening now”.

Seems like it could be a slippery slope.

Do you think that the term “war crime” is pointless, because all crimes committed in war are permissible or “it’s been happening for a long time”?

 

[efil4]

So do you think Israel has never intentionally killed civilians or tries not to do that?

War is never a free pass to kill as many civilians as you want. This is the reason entities like the ICC exist, though their power is very limited.

I would hope they do. But thats not my call ultimately and why war is just a @##$@$@# ugly and devastating undertaking

i didnt say it was a free pass. I said specifically war is "unbridled aggression" So if you understand just what war entails, you understand that there is certainly a possibility that civilians die.

At the end of the day, the world is watching and while the ICC may not have any teeth, Israels standing/reputation will be questioned.

 

[efil4]

You seem to be of the opinion of “it’s happened before and these things are hard, so you shouldn’t be surprised it’s happening now”.

Seems like it could be a slippery slope.

Do you think that the term “war crime” is pointless, because all crimes committed in war are permissible or “it’s been happening for a long time”?

you shouldnt.

So many have watched the recent wars and been duped into thinking that war is some precision guided conflict. Look no further than the African conflicts in the last 20 years to see just how barbaric war really is.

May be a slippery slope for you, but its not for me. War crimes are not pointless. Just as the Geneva Conventions arent pointless...however both sides have to play by the same rules. If Israel is found to have targeted civilians for no other reason than they were just "there", thats a war crime imo. Do they pay for these crimes? that remains to be seen. But they should. Just as much Hamas should. ( But Hamas is an organizaion, not a state/nation so are they even governed by ICC ?)

 

[GrandAdmiral]

Im not justifying anything.


im of the opinion that when you declare war, you mean war.

This is a direct result of war.

Its why so many people, including myself, are appalled at what war brings. Nothing but innocent death and destruction.

Again, we have been somewhat deprogrammed to what real war is. Laser guided bombs, "precision munitions" via GPS etc - while certainly an advance on dropping 10 "dumb bombs" to achieve what 1 guided bomb can do, its not fool-proof. And it certainly cannot discriminate foe from friendly/innocent.

But you are. You're basically saying that because Israel is it war, they're justified in the actions. Doesn't matter you're not using the word. And, unless you're Russia, Iran, Hamas, AND Israel, there are rules to war, particularly when it come to sacrificing innocents to get your desired results. When those rules are violated, they call that war crimes. The United States had no problem crying that in Yemen and Ukraine. But it's basically crickets here. Hamas and Israel are both guilty of war crimes.

 

[Incumbent]

I think geography and population density contribute to significant and specialized challenges. There are a lot of people crammed into a very small area. Also, Hamas isn’t going to have the same kinds of strategic military and infrastructure targets in place, as in other combat theaters. That makes precision difficult to the point of practically impossible in many instances, and it requires a heavy reliance on intel that is subject to serious flaws. It also means Hamas fighters will easily be embedded with citizens.

I think the questions are whether Israel had a right to retaliate and seek to remove Hamas, and whether there was a better way to go about that?

I don’t think efil is trying to justify atrocities, but rather speaking to the realities of warfare in this kind of urban setting against a nonconventional enemy.

There’s an argument that could be made that because of the risks, Israel should have first started with noncombat efforts, but I think that almost certainly would have only emboldened Hamas and their backers to keep engaging. The scale and horror of their attack on Israel was intentionally meant to provoke a war.

 

[LA - L.A.]

Well, I could respond to an ad hominem like this in many different ways.

It wasn't an ad hominem. I didn't accuse you of anything. I simply explained how I feel about ambiguity and that you had not, and still have not, given a straight forward answer to a straight forward question.

I think the route I will go here is to advise you not to be so assumptive.

I wouldn't have to be assumptive if you weren't so ambiguous and seemingly evasive in answering straight forward questions in a straight forward manner.

Ask the clarifying questions instead of directly attacking my character.

I didn't attack your character. I'm simply telling you what I'm seeing from you. It doesn't make you a "bad" character person. It just is what it is.

I think you’ll find that I’m quite reasonable most of the time, and never had any thoughts behind being intentionally vague.

I haven't found that at all, because you have yet to demonstrate that. Show me you being clear and straightforward and I'll start to see that.

I’d have appreciated if you had lead with this instead.

I did lead with that questions the first time around and you didn't give a clear and direct answer. You still haven't given a clear and direct answer to the question. Instead you're getting bent out of shape over me pointing out that you haven't given a clear, straight forward answer to a clear, straight forward question.

Anyway, I have answered this probably four or five times now: probably so, based on what I have seen.

No, you have not. You keep saying you have, but you have not answered the question.

Is this not an answer that is good enough for you? If not, why?

You didn't give an answer at all, so there's nothing there to be good enough or not good enough. There is no there, there.


There used to be a time when asking questions was a good way to get information in a discussion. Those days seem to be gone. So I'll stop asking questions and just make a statement.

1,000 people suffering and dying is worse than 100 people suffering and dying, and 10,000 people suffering and dying is worse than 1,000 people suffering and dying.

One person suffering and dying is bad, but the greater the number of people the worst the human suffering is. I want to see zero human suffering across the entire planet, so that includes Gaza, the other occupied territories and Israel.

One of only three people will win the presidency, that's just a fact. They are Biden, Trump and the long shot JFK Jr. So those are our realistic choices to minimize human suffering and death across the planet. Voting for anyone else will not do a damn thing to have any impact on the amount of human suffering and death on the planet.

Now let's breakdown our choices:

Trump as president drastically increases the number of people who will suffer and die across the entire planet, Gaza, the other occupied territories and Israel.

JFK Jr's leanings raise the credible threat that he will allow as much human suffering and death across the planet.

Biden is the clear candidate that will lead to a significantly less amount of suffering and death on the planet than Trump and probably JFK Jr. Even though Biden has not done as much as I want, he has done things that have restrained the hard line fascists ruling Israel. If Biden had truly done "nothing at all" things would be much worse in Gaza and the other occupied territories. Things can always get worse and they would have been much worse if not for actions and words from Biden.

So for the sake of humanity, the best choice is to vote for Biden.

Someone can disagree with me on what the best humanitarian approach is, but they can't not accuse me of not carrying about every single person that walks and will walk this planet in the future.

 

[LA - L.A.]

here is where i think things get blurred....Israel publicly and quite emphatically declared War on Hamas. Not a special military operation. Not a precision strike(s) campaign.
( and if i remember correct- the US actually asked Israel to conduct a "surgical strikes"( US loves this term ) type conflict to avoid collateral damage to which they said no )

Israel didnt cross into Palestine, kill, kidnap and maim as many as they could before retreating back into the safety of their land.

Thats terrorism. Thats not war.

I agree completely with the above.

What Israel is doing now is waging an all out war on Hamas. They declared as much.

Now, you can certainly debate the consequences of waging war, because of its brutality. But waging war, with a military that dwarfs your opposition isnt terrorism. Its waging war with the upper hand.

I think you are overlooking that even in war, there are international laws/rules and crimes governing warfare. Israel has advocated for those very laws and rules governing war. A country waging war may not be defined as terrorism, but even in war nations, armies and soldiers can in fact commit war crimes while waging a justified war.

I think it's clear that Israel has committed many war crimes and I think war crimes are as inexcusable and unacceptable as terrorism.