Israel vs Hamas (2 Viewers)

[GrandAdmiral]

Looks like the fight is on with Israeli soldiers and civilians amongst the dead already. Question becomes, how long before we get dragged into this?

Netanyahu says Israel is ‘at war’ after Hamas launches surprise attack, takes hostages | CNN

Israel’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu declared that the country was “at war” on Saturday, after Palestinian militants in Gaza fired a deadly barrage of rockets and sent gunmen into Israeli territory in a major escalation of the long running conflict between the two sides.

www.cnn.com

 

[LA - L.A.]

What terrorist group were the Nazis fighting?

So as long as one is fighting a terrorist group or claims to be fighting one, purposefully executing tens of thousands of civilians is okay or permissible within the confines of war?

Maybe you should follow your own advice below.

I think the route I will go here is to advise you not to be so assumptive.

 

[Heathen]

I wouldn't have to be assumptive if you weren't so ambiguous and seemingly evasive in answering straight forward questions in a straight forward manner.

Well again, my intention has never been such.

I did lead with that questions the first time around and you didn't give a clear and direct answer. You still haven't given a clear and direct answer to the question. Instead you're getting bent out of shape over me pointing out that you haven't given a clear, straight forward answer to a clear, straight forward question.

Maybe we’re just missing each other in translation - so let’s do it this way: What would be an example of an answer to your question that you would expect?

There used to be a time when asking questions was a good way to get information in a discussion. Those days seem to be gone. So I'll stop asking questions and just make a statement.

I’d just suggest we get on the same page per my comment above. An olive branch if you will.

1,000 people suffering and dying is worse than 100 people suffering and dying, and 10,000 people suffering and dying is worse than 1,000 people suffering and dying.

One person suffering and dying is bad, but the greater the number of people the worst the human suffering is. I want to see zero human suffering across the entire planet, so that includes Gaza, the other occupied territories and Israel.

Great - we agree on this.

One of only three people will win the presidency, that's just a fact. They are Biden, Trump and the long shot JFK Jr. So those are our realistic choices to minimize human suffering and death across the planet. Voting for anyone else will not do a damn thing to have any impact on the amount of human suffering and death on the planet.

Now let's breakdown our choices:

Trump as president drastically increases the number of people who will suffer and die across the entire planet, Gaza, the other occupied territories and Israel.

JFK Jr's leanings raise the credible threat that he will allow as much human suffering and death across the planet.

Biden is the clear candidate that will lead to a significantly less amount of suffering and death on the planet than Trump and probably JFK Jr. Even though Biden has not done as much as I want, he has done things that have restrained the hard line fascists ruling Israel. If Biden had truly done "nothing at all" things would be much worse in Gaza and the other occupied territories. Things can always get worse and they would have been much worse if not for actions and words from Biden.

So for the sake of humanity, the best choice is to vote for Biden.

Someone can disagree with me on what the best humanitarian approach is, but they can't not accuse me of not carrying about every single person that walks and will walk this planet in the future.

I don’t disagree with this assessment. I guess I don’t emphatically agree because I hold contempt for Biden (and others) for very clearly allowing Israel to continue in Gaza as they have and to have done what they’ve done, but I’m not out here telling people to vote for anyone else.

I will repeat that it seems the sentiment is that accusing Biden of legitimate actions I don’t agree with as a Democratic voter is synonymous with trying to actively attack his electability. I don’t see it that way - I think people have always heavily criticized their elected leaders and that it is one of the things I appreciate about a democratic society.

Everyone can make their own choices in November. I personally don’t think it’s helpful for anyone - progressive, liberal, conservative etc to criticize personal choice when it comes to voting (not saying that you have, but I know things will get dicey this year).

 

[efil4]

I agree completely with the above.


I think you are overlooking that even in war, there are international laws/rules and crimes governing warfare. Israel has advocated for those very laws and rules governing war. A country waging war may not be defined as terrorism, but even in war nations, armies and soldiers can in fact commit war crimes while waging a justified war.

I think it's clear that Israel has committed many war crimes and I think war crimes are as inexcusable and unacceptable as terrorism.

i have said as much.

The point of all of my posts is that WAR is ugly, brutal and full of pent up aggression that will ultimately manifest itself in what we are seeing now. Thats exactly what waging war is.

Have both sides committed war crimes? I think so. And that will be for the ICC to sort out. I have zero problem if the ICC issues a warrant for Netanyahu.

But i dont think its a surprise that a nation like Israel, with a leader like Netanyahu, went full 100 on Hamas. He has been itching for this for DECADES. Shoot, i posted a Frontline episode ( months ago ) that basically lays out that HE was the one who scuttled the 2 State solution that was brokered by Clinton in the late 1990s. He NEVER recognized Palestine as a sovereign state. Netanyahu is no different than an old Soviet "hardliner" type that thinks bashing your opponents head into pulp is the ONLY way to gain respect ( and by respect i mean "dont #@$#$ w/ us )

This cauldron has been simmering for a long time. Diplomacy was never going to work with Netanyahu. He didnt want it. This is what he wanted.

 

[efil4]

Maybe so.

did i write this yesterday? i dont recall this statement in our discussions yesterday.

 

[Heathen]

did i write this yesterday? i dont recall this statement in our discussions yesterday.

Sorry, I accidentally quoted you and was trying to respond to LA. Trying to keep up with this thread on a phone is real work.

 

[Incumbent]

Everyone can make their own choices in November. I personally don’t think it’s helpful for anyone - progressive, liberal, conservative etc to criticize personal choice when it comes to voting (not saying that you have).

Your very first post in this thread was to announce that Biden had lost you as a voter. I’ll be blunt, if a war between Hamas and Israel became your redline for Biden in less than three weeks, then it’s hard to believe you were ever voting for him, or that you are the least bit concerned with considering the big picture of what is at stake and the future. If you really are a progressive, you are ignoring what is most helpful to many of the ideals I believe you would hold dear.

These are the same conversations people were having in 2016 and everybody who predicted that Trump would remake the judiciary, and be a disaster for democracy and progress were absolutely right. If Trump wins again, it might very well be the deathknell. At best, the damage will take many years to unravel.

You have asked how anybody can look into a Palestinian person’s eyes and justify voting for Biden. I’ll ask the same of you about the many people who are suffering here, who will suffer, because of terrible, hateful MAGA policies. That because of purity politics, you don’t care enough about them to make a rational decision for their best interests. For your best interests. For the world’s best interests. You’ve decided to greatly embellish Biden’s culpability for the actions of Middle East terrorists and warmongers to, I think, justify a decision you already made.

If this was just about you, I might agree to peacefully dismiss your opinion, but it’s bigger than you. It’s part of the same stubborn, self-sabotaging opposition to the democratic candidate from people who should be smart enough to see the harm their myopic resistance is causing.

There isn’t a progressive utopia waiting on the other side if we keep conceding ground to Christofascists. Eventually they will land the fatal blow and that will be that.

Hopefully women and reasonable swing voters can save us.

 

[Incumbent]

A reasoned take from leftists would be:

I disagree with Biden’s handling of (whatever issues) but I understand what is at stake in this election and the threat posed by right wing extremists. I don’t have to like Biden or agree with everything he does to vote for him and I encourage you to join me. I will hold the line now and then work hard to advance the candidates and causes that I believe move us in the right direction.

 

[Heathen]

Your very first post in this thread was to announce that Biden had lost you as a voter. I’ll be blunt, if a war between Hamas and Israel became your redline for Biden in less than three weeks, then it’s hard to believe you were ever voting for him, or that you are the least bit concerned with considering the big picture of what is at stake and the future.

I’m curious - why do you care about this, and how is it affecting you?

If you really are a progressive, you are ignoring what is most helpful to many of the ideals I believe you would hold dear.

I’m not really interested in conversing using absolute terms / no true Scotsman.

“If you really are what you claim you are- then you would see things my way / vote my way”

I think that isn’t a healthy way to discuss things. I’ve mentioned that I won’t be voting for Biden, but it’s specific to my circumstance which I have repeated several times. I don’t need to justify myself to anyone. Neither should you or anyone else.

You have asked how anybody can look into a Palestinian person’s eyes and justify voting for Biden. I’ll ask the same of you about the many people who are suffering here, who will suffer, because of terrible, hateful MAGA policies. That because of purity politics, you don’t care enough about them to make a rational decision for their best interests. For your best interests. For the world’s best interests. You’ve decided to greatly embellish Biden’s culpability for the actions of Middle East terrorists and warmongers to, I think, justify a decision you already made.

To be honest, friend, I’m a bit done with the name calling. There is clear angst over the election and I get that, but to get to the point that we are calling people unintelligent and careless to the plight of others because of how we vote isn’t acceptable nor is it a healthy way to engage in civil debate.

You mention that I “Greatly embellish”? That is a surprising comment to me.

I’d like you to tell me how I’ve greatly embellished Biden’s culpability, please.

If this was just about you, I might agree to peacefully dismiss your opinion, but it’s bigger than you. It’s part of the same stubborn, self-sabotaging opposition to the democratic candidate from people who should be smart enough to see the harm their myopic resistance is causing.

See above. A lot of passive aggressive language here.

There isn’t a progressive utopia waiting on the other side if we keep conceding ground to Christofascists. Eventually they will land the fatal blow and that will be that.

Hopefully women and reasonable swing voters can save us.

I would think that if you want to have progressive voters who are strongly against Biden’s decisions in supporting Israel’s actions against the Gazan people ultimately supporting him because he is still the best option - you’d want to have conversations, not malign and disparage.

It does not matter that someone “isn’t getting your point” or seems “stubborn” to you, or that you are getting fed up repeating something that you think someone should get - the minute you start making it personal, you’re losing the battle and working quite literally against what you want.

Unfortunately, that seems to be the strategy you are going with here.

 

[Heathen]

A reasoned take from leftists would be:

I disagree with Biden’s handling of (whatever issues) but I understand what is at stake in this election and the threat posed by right wing extremists. I don’t have to like Biden or agree with everything he does to vote for him and I encourage you to join me. I will hold the line now and then work hard to advance the candidates and causes that I believe move us in the right direction.

My goodness, man..

You can’t speak for other people and unilaterally declare what a reasonable representative of that person’s group would look like any more than I can tell you the same.

 

[Heathen]

https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/4701966-biden-netanyahu-prolonging-war-political-reasons/

 

[Incumbent]

My goodness, man..

You can’t speak for other people and unilaterally declare what a reasonable representative of that person’s group would look like any more than I can tell you the same.

Oh, I can.

I think (if you are sincere) we have a lot in common politically. I absolutely can weigh in with my opinions about that. About any group. You get to express yourself and I get to express myself.

Diplomacy didn’t seem to work well in trying to convince people in 2016 who were dug in. I don’t think it will now. I’m not sure any approach will work.

What do you think we gain if Biden looses? What are you hoping for in November and why? I think it’s fair to ask and gets to the center of this. I think I’ve been very clear about what I think will happen and why I think it’s important.

And you make a fair amount of assumptions and accusations - that you’ve been called out on - so get off the high horse.

I’d love to have a conversation and part of that, for me, is hoping to understand what really motivates you and what you want to see for the future. I think we all feel bad about women and children dying, but also see that there is a lot more to consider than never ending conflict in the Middle East.

 

[GrandAdmiral]

A reasoned take from leftists would be:

I disagree with Biden’s handling of (whatever issues) but I understand what is at stake in this election and the threat posed by right wing extremists. I don’t have to like Biden or agree with everything he does to vote for him and I encourage you to join me. I will hold the line now and then work hard to advance the candidates and causes that I believe move us in the right direction.

This leftist totally disagrees simply due to our political make up.

 

[Incumbent]

This leftist totally disagrees simply due to our political make up.

Would you be willing to explain what you mean by that?

Our? Whose political make-up and what does that mean?

 

[Incumbent]

I’m curious - why do you care about this, and how is it affecting you?

I've shared my thoughts in this thread about that. Why was the first sentence of your first post in this thread - "Anyone else done with Biden?" - if you didn't want to have conversations about that? You asked the question. It was the first thing you wanted to put on the record in this discussion.

I’m not really interested in conversing using absolute terms / no true Scotsman.

“If you really are what you claim you are- then you would see things my way / vote my way”

I think that isn’t a healthy way to discuss things. I’ve mentioned that I won’t be voting for Biden, but it’s specific to my circumstance which I have repeated several times. I don’t need to justify myself to anyone. Neither should you or anyone else.

I phrased it that way because I genuinely don't know how you view yourself politically/philosophically. I'd like to know. I see the avatar and I can make assumptions but I've also learned that it's not always clear what motivates people and what they believe. I've asked. I also know sometimes people push back at labels or want to be viewed in another way.

To be honest, friend, I’m a bit done with the name calling. There is clear angst over the election and I get that, but to get to the point that we are calling people unintelligent and careless to the plight of others because of how we vote isn’t acceptable nor is it a healthy way to engage in civil debate.

This is a reminder that what is intended and the way it's interpreted sometimes aren't the same. I'm not at all aware of what you took as name-calling directed at you, though.

You mention that I “Greatly embellish”? That is a surprising comment to me.

I’d like you to tell me how I’ve greatly embellished Biden’s culpability, please.

I've explained in several posts my views about the Hamas-Israeli war and the challenges I believe that has presented for the Biden administration. I wish he would do more to hold Netanyahu in check, but I also believe that early U.S. involvement is the only thing that kept this from quickly becoming a regional war, or worse. Had the U.S. stayed out and told Israel to go it alone, I strongly believe other countries would have become more involved, overtly or covertly. I also think Biden is the only one who is interested in a peaceful resolution. Hamas isn't. Netanyahu isn't.

I would think that if you want to have progressive voters who are strongly against Biden’s decisions in supporting Israel’s actions against the Gazan people ultimately supporting him because he is still the best option - you’d want to have conversations, not malign and disparage.

I'm a progressive voter and I'm hoping enough other progressive voters will see the dire consequences of another Trump victory. I am passionate about that. I live in a state where my still child-bearing capable wife has largely lost her reproductive rights. But I've asked what you're hoping to see, not just in this election but for the future.

It does not matter that someone “isn’t getting your point” or seems “stubborn” to you, or that you are getting fed up repeating something that you think someone should get - the minute you start making it personal, you’re losing the battle and working quite literally against what you want.

Unfortunately, that seems to be the strategy you are going with here.

I'll have to go back and see where you are quoting me about "isn't getting your point". It's not in the comment you were replying to.

Stubborn? Yes. Stubborn as in unyielding. Stubborn as in I think it's harmful to the greater cause of progress and the greater good.

 

[Heathen]

Diplomacy didn’t seem to work well in trying to convince people in 2016 who were dug in. I don’t think it will now. I’m not sure any approach will work.

Why wouldn’t one try, though?

The majority of those who disagree strongly with Biden’s foreign policy in the Israel-Gaza situation are younger.

I think Biden has done a decent job of walking the line as best he can with this issue. More so I notice a lot of the hatred coming from annoyed moderate voters and establishment elites like Pelosi, Bill Maher etc etc

A lot of these voters are used to being called (paraphrasing) “utopian, juvenile, snowflake, single issue, petulant children, stupid, naive, uncaring..” etc by their own party.

I’ve seen it on this board and I’ve seen it in real life. Sometimes it’s warranted. A lot of times it’s not. I just think that from an outsiders perspective for a moment that Democrats could channel valid anger into voting for Trump specific to this issue (Gaza).

I don’t know the limitations of what Biden can do. Many would argue the American president is just a figurehead. I don’t hold the notion that Biden has done everything he can, he’s likely trying to walk the line and appease pro-Israel moderate Dems (and many non Trump Repubs) and taking that bet over doing more for the cause of genocide in Gaza, which more young people support.

That’s my theory, anyway.

What do you think we gain if Biden looses? What are you hoping for in November and why? I think it’s fair to ask and gets to the center of this. I think I’ve been very clear about what I think will happen and why I think it’s important.

I didn’t say we gain anything.

I’m hoping Biden wins, but he and his administration need to understand that “same ol, same ol” from the liberals in Washington (capitalist sense, where Repubs and Dems are mostly indistinguishable in terms of money in politics, endless money for war, working more to cut taxes for the ultra rich corporates) isn’t going to fly much longer. And as I’ve said before, people can both chide Biden relentlessly for the Israel thing, and I think he deserves it, and still vote for the guy. I have said I won’t, but if I was in a swing state I probably would.

Regarding progressive voters, whether you agree with their views or not, one can’t expect people to put their heads down and rinse repeat when you’re actively, consistently going against their interests just because of the lesser of two evils situation. It may work now, but it’s increasingly a losing game.

At some point, its just human nature that not distinguishing yourself enough from someone is going to effect their likelihood to want to vote for you.

And that’s one big question mark in the elections.

I’d love to have a conversation and part of that, for me, is hoping to understand what really motivates you and what you want to see for the future. I think we all feel bad about women and children dying, but also see that there is a lot more to consider than never ending conflict in the Middle East.

There certainly is.

I’d say my views are more leftist than (American politics sense) liberal but we likely agree on all social issues, if I were to guess. Economically is where I’d say I want to see the majority of changes occur. It’s beyond a sad joke that in the richest country in history the middle class of America struggles as they do.

 

[GrandAdmiral]

Would you be willing to explain what you mean by that?

Saying what the party response should be is as demanding as the MAGAs telling to get behind Trump or else. I get it. Trump is the devil. But as I already mentioned, my vote in electoral politics means absolutely nothing in the state of Louisiana. So I will use it as I want to. I'll either vote for Biden or use it as a protest vote. Either way it won't matter. But I will use my vote as I wish since I can.

 

[Incumbent]

Why wouldn’t one try, though?

I think a lot of people have tried, do try, going back to when things really started falling apart from outside influences in the 2016 election.

The majority of those who disagree strongly with Biden’s foreign policy in the Israel-Gaza situation are younger.

I don't have any doubts that the war in Gaza is being used to manipulate American voters by the same entities who we know have engaged in information campaigns against our past elections. It's easy to say this is an issue that naturally happened to captivate college campuses but why not the ongoing attacks on women's rights? Why not the economic issues that you briefly mention later in this post? I have my theory; it's an issue that preys on emotion AND presents opportunities to create fractures in leftwing groups. I think we might underestimate the rapidity with which people with hidden agendas can set movements into motion. I've never felt like the campus protests were wholly organic. That isn't to say that a lot of the people participating aren't sincere and aren't able to think freely, but information overload can make it easy to corral groups of people in certain directions.

I think Biden has done a decent job of walking the line as best he can with this issue. More so I notice a lot of the hatred coming from annoyed moderate voters and establishment elites like Pelosi, Bill Maher etc etc

Not really sure what you mean about the hatred coming from them and who it is directed at, but if you think Biden has done a decent job, why would this be the issue that causes you to know want to vote for him?

A lot of these voters are used to being called (paraphrasing) “utopian, juvenile, snowflake, single issue, petulant children, stupid, naive, uncaring..” etc by their own party.

I’ve seen it on this board and I’ve seen it in real life. Sometimes it’s warranted. A lot of times it’s not. I just think that from an outsiders perspective for a moment that Democrats could channel valid anger into voting for Trump specific to this issue (Gaza).

Democrats voting for Trump? Because of any of this? That's something else entirely.

I don’t know the limitations of what Biden can do. Many would argue the American president is just a figurehead. I don’t hold the notion that Biden has done everything he can, he’s likely trying to walk the line and appease pro-Israel moderate Dems (and many non Trump Repubs) and taking that bet over doing more for the cause of genocide in Gaza, which more young people support.

That’s my theory, anyway.

I agree and think that's fair.

I didn’t say we gain anything.

I’m hoping Biden wins, but he and his administration need to understand that “same ol, same ol” from the liberals in Washington (capitalist sense, where Repubs and Dems are mostly indistinguishable in terms of money in politics, endless money for war, working more to cut taxes for the ultra rich corporates) isn’t going to fly much longer. And as I’ve said before, people can both chide Biden relentlessly for the Israel thing, and I think he deserves it, and still vote for the guy. I have said I won’t, but if I was in a swing state I probably would.

It's foreign to me that somebody would hope for a particular outcome while advocating against the key figure in that hopeful outcome. Maybe that's the disconnect between us.

Regarding progressive voters, whether you agree with their views or not [...]

I am a progressive voter.

[...] one can’t expect people to put their heads down and rinse repeat when you’re actively, consistently going against their interests just because of the lesser of two evils situation. It may work now, but it’s increasingly a losing game.

Biden has some real progressive accomplishments to run on in an environment where he hasn't had strong congressional support to get things through. I've said before, I've never been a big Biden fan but I appreciate the job he's done. Progress moves too slowly in the U.S. but I think that's more to do with a weak appetite for progressive ideals by voters than it is both-sideism. Progressives have to fight for everything because our coalition is weak and tenuous. But also the contrast in this election is that Trump will absolutely decimate progress moving forward.

At some point, its just human nature that not distinguishing yourself enough from someone is going to effect their likelihood to want to vote for you.

The difference between Biden and Trump couldn't be much more stark.

’d say my views are more leftist than (American politics sense) liberal but we likely agree on all social issues, if I were to guess. Economically is where I’d say I want to see the majority of changes occur. It’s beyond a sad joke that in the richest country in history the middle class of America struggles as they do.

I doubt our views economically differ all that much. I'm middle class and very much understand the struggle. But not just that, I empathize with the struggles facing younger people coming behind me. They may not see middle class at the rate things are going. The way to fix that isn't to abandon the candidates in general elections who still most closely represent our interests, but to work hard in between elections to help advance the ideas and the candidates who more fully represent our interests. I voted for Sanders in the 2016 primary and Clinton in the 2016 election (as a democrat in a red state) because I think it's important to always be moving forward, even when it doesn't feel like nearly enough. Not only didn't we move forward, even just a little bit, we feel much further behind. The damage Trump has already done is far-reaching and has hurt a lot of people.

 

[Incumbent]

Saying what the party response should be is as demanding as the MAGAs telling to get behind Trump or else. I get it. Trump is the devil. But as I already mentioned, my vote in electoral politics means absolutely nothing in the state of Louisiana. So I will use it as I want to. I'll either vote for Biden or use it as a protest vote. Either way it won't matter. But I will use my vote as I wish since I can.

I wasn't saying what I think the party response should be, I was expressing how I wish more people would approach these kinds of decisions.

If you think I'm telling you or anybody else how to vote, I don't know how you got there. Obviously I know I don't have any control over how people vote.

But I also think there's a distinction between voting how we want vs joining in the waves of information that do have some affect on election outcomes, as we've been witness to. It's wild to me to see people say they hope Biden wins, they know Trump is awful, but then take to online platforms to articulate against support for Biden.