Israel vs Hamas (2 Viewers)

[GrandAdmiral]

Looks like the fight is on with Israeli soldiers and civilians amongst the dead already. Question becomes, how long before we get dragged into this?

Netanyahu says Israel is ‘at war’ after Hamas launches surprise attack, takes hostages | CNN

Israel’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu declared that the country was “at war” on Saturday, after Palestinian militants in Gaza fired a deadly barrage of rockets and sent gunmen into Israeli territory in a major escalation of the long running conflict between the two sides.

www.cnn.com

 

[Heathen]

I don't have any doubts that the war in Gaza is being used to manipulate American voters by the same entities who we know have engaged in information campaigns against our past elections. It's easy to say this is an issue that naturally happened to captivate college campuses but why not the ongoing attacks on women's rights? Why not the economic issues that you briefly mention later in this post? I have my theory; it's an issue that preys on emotion AND presents opportunities to create fractures in leftwing groups. I think we might underestimate the rapidity with which people with hidden agendas can set movements into motion. I've never felt like the campus protests were wholly organic. That isn't to say that a lot of the people participating aren't sincere and aren't able to think freely, but information overload can make it easy to corral groups of people in certain directions.

So I understand correctly, are you saying that situation in Gaza / Oct 7 event was used to hurt a political candidate (Biden?).

Not really sure what you mean about the hatred coming from them and who it is directed at, but if you think Biden has done a decent job, why would this be the issue that causes you to know want to vote for him?

Hatred coming from moderates directed at young more left wing Democrat voters and their views, including statements made on CNN, MSNBC, etc about their support of Gaza protests. It goes back a long time - Hillary disparaging Bernie voters, media analysts venting about them, the list goes on.

This isn’t the issue that doesn’t make me want to vote for him. I brought it up because at that time we were discussing name calling in politics and getting someone who doesn’t share one’s view on an issue to still come to the table.

Democrats voting for Trump? Because of any of this? That's something else entirely.

Sorry, I need to proofread. I meant against Trump.

It's foreign to me that somebody would hope for a particular outcome while advocating against the key figure in that hopeful outcome. Maybe that's the disconnect between us.

There’s a difference between being anti-Biden generally and being anti-Biden on a particular issue.

It would be like if Biden suddenly became hardcore anti-Muslim and wanted to boot them all out of the country (bear with me, just an example).

You’d probably be very anti-Biden on this issue, maybe vehemently so (because that would be f***ed up) but may ultimately support Biden with your vote because he’s still better than Trump overall.

I don’t hate Biden. I don’t particularly like some of his policies, and think some like choices in letting Israel play us like a fiddle in killing children in Gaza are likely criminal - but I also think he’s the best we have unfortunately and Trump would be worse.

Biden has some real progressive accomplishments to run on in an environment where he hasn't had strong congressional support to get things through. I've said before, I've never been a big Biden fan but I appreciate the job he's done. Progress moves too slowly in the U.S. but I think that's more to do with a weak appetite for progressive ideals by voters than it is both-sideism. Progressives have to fight for everything because our coalition is weak and tenuous. But also the contrast in this election is that Trump will absolutely decimate progress moving forward.

I agree with this. Even changing popular opinion like was the case with Medicare for All was a prime example of how even if you can’t change legislation - talking about an issue in public, in debates etc can move appetites for certain ideals that Americans traditionally aren’t used to forward.

The difference between Biden and Trump couldn't be much more stark.

I’m not saying they aren’t. I’m speaking to how people are and how they’ll vote, I think.

It’s the same way in for example making voting a national holiday. Democratic voting would probably surge because many people who are too poor to get to the polls or uninformed would be more likely to take that time to make a decision to get to the polls.

I don’t think it means there are shirte people who don’t understand Democracy is at stake if they can’t get there. I think life just gets in the way. Same way it does when people feel rundown or that their vote doesn’t matter.

Not sure if that was helpful or not, I was trying to think of a sensible example and get across what I’m saying.

I doubt our views economically differ all that much. I'm middle class and very much understand the struggle. But not just that, I empathize with the struggles facing younger people coming behind me. They may not see middle class at the rate things are going. The way to fix that isn't to abandon the candidates in general elections who still most closely represent our interests, but to work hard in between elections to help advance the ideas and the candidates who more fully represent our interests.

Agree, some could argue the congressional races are much more important.

I voted for Sanders in the 2016 primary and Clinton in the 2016 election (as a democrat in a red state) because I think it's important to always be moving forward, even when it doesn't feel like nearly enough. Not only didn't we move forward, even just a little bit, we feel much further behind. The damage Trump has already done is far-reaching and has hurt a lot of people.

Same for me - down to the red state and the voting.

Not to open up another can of worms, but I think the Democratic Party not taking more bold stances on issues and refusing to deviate in past years from closer alignment with GOP policies is why there aren’t more people excited about voting blue.

Anyway another tangent for another day.

 

[Incumbent]

So I understand correctly, are you saying that situation in Gaza / Oct 7 event was used to hurt a political candidate (Biden?).

It's not the first time I've shared that in this thread. I think it's a possibility, based on what we know about foreign adversary campaigns against our country and our elections. Do you think it's a possibility that Hamas could have been prodded into an unprecedented attack on Israel, with no real outcome other than war? And/or that adversaries would use that conflict to sow discord among American voters? (We know it's happened in the past and shouldn't have any reason to think it wouldn't still be a tool used against us.)

Hatred coming from moderates directed at young more left wing Democrat voters and their views, including statements made on CNN, MSNBC, etc about their support of Gaza protests. It goes back a long time - Hillary disparaging Bernie voters, media analysts venting about them, the list goes on.

This isn’t the issue that doesn’t make me want to vote for him. I brought it up because at that time we were discussing name calling in politics and getting someone who doesn’t share one’s view on an issue to still come to the table.

Ok, I understand. I wasn't sure where you meant the hatred was being directed. I do think there is a real need for democratic leadership who better understand coalition building. That was central to Obama's appeal. And to put it bluntly, I think party leadership needs to get younger and more in tune with current problems and younger voters. That's part of why I can appreciate some of what Biden has accomplished vs what I expected. But until then, I accept the choices I have until it changes. I vote for progressive candidates. My congressman is part of the young progressive coalition in congress. I guess that's why I speak as freely on this as I do, because I'm not just trying to admonish others; I'm walking the walk.

There’s a difference between being anti-Biden generally and being anti-Biden on a particular issue.

It would be like if Biden suddenly became hardcore anti-Muslim and wanted to boot them all out of the country (bear with me, just an example).

You’d probably be very anti-Biden on this issue, maybe vehemently so (because that would be f***ed up) but may ultimately support Biden with your vote because he’s still better than Trump overall.

I don’t hate Biden. I don’t particularly like some of his policies, and think some like choices in letting Israel play us like a fiddle in killing children in Gaza are likely criminal - but I also think he’s the best we have unfortunately and Trump would be worse.

To be clear, the issue I understand drove you to not want to support Biden is the Hamas-Israel war. So to see you say you think he's done a good job walking the line (or however you phrased it) is why I'm asking if it's other issues, and if so, what those issues are.

I agree with this. Even changing popular opinion like was the case with Medicare for All was a prime example of how even if you can’t change legislation - talking about an issue in public, in debates etc can move appetites for certain ideals that Americans traditionally aren’t used to forward.

It's frustrating but it's reality. Whatever people can accuse the DNC of doing in 2016, Sanders was on the ballot in every state, on the debate stage, and wasn't lacking for campaign funds and recognition. Voters ultimately rejected him, unfortunately, because, I believe, the appetite for farther left progressivism is overestimated. But...I think we are slowly getting there.

It’s the same way in for example making voting a national holiday. Democratic voting would probably surge because many people who are too poor to get to the polls or uninformed would be more likely to take that time to make a decision to get to the polls.

Agreed. I think voting should be easily accessible to everybody. But even now, in Texas, there are always many days to early vote, and voters can vote at any precinct in their registered county. The GOP is absolutely trying to suppress turnout, but some of that is still on people simply not showing up. We had a strong slate of democratic candidates in our last state elections and turnout was disappointing. Perfect candidates don't exist. Perfect timing doesn't exist. We can't keep complaining about the Trumps, Abbotts, and Landrys if people won't mobilize to support state parties, democratic candidates, and turn out to vote.

 

[GrandAdmiral]

But I also think there's a distinction between voting how we want vs joining in the waves of information that do have some affect on election outcomes, as we've been witness to. It's wild to me to see people say they hope Biden wins, they know Trump is awful, but then take to online platforms to articulate against support for Biden.

Why can't both exist? I despise Trump as much as you do. However, I also hate Biden's approach to the situation in Gaza. Both can occur. Again, if I lived in a state that mattered, I would still criticize Biden. But come November, I would gladly vote for him.

But there is nothing wrong with hating Trump while despising Biden's policy on Israel.

 

[LA - L.A.]

I guess I don’t emphatically agree because I hold contempt for Biden (and others) for very clearly allowing Israel to continue in Gaza...

Biden can't stop Israel from doing anything without engaging in battle with Israeli troops.

That would be a disaster for everyone on the planet and make things much worse for the people in Gaza. What's happening to the people in Gaza is a terrible tragedy, but it would be much worse if the US engaged against Israeli troops.

Just from what little is publicly known, Biden has done significant things to get Israel to act with some restraint. Biden is not quietly letting Israel do whatever Israel wants. Israel would very much like to be doing a lot worse things than the terrible things they are currently doing. The US and other nations are the only reason Israel is not doing those worse things they'd like to be doing to the people of Gaza.

If you disagree that Biden can't stop Israel, please explain what you think Biden can do to stop Israel.

I will repeat that it seems the sentiment is that accusing Biden of legitimate actions I don’t agree with as a Democratic voter is synonymous with trying to actively attack his electability. I don’t see it that way - I think people have always heavily criticized their elected leaders and that it is one of the things I appreciate about a democratic society.

Everyone can make their own choices in November. I personally don’t think it’s helpful for anyone - progressive, liberal, conservative etc to criticize personal choice when it comes to voting (not saying that you have, but I know things will get dicey this year).

Your criticism of Biden is not helpful to the people of Gaza in any way either, but you have a right to voice your criticism even though it's not helpful.

I absolutely, unabashedly have been and will be critical of what people say about candidates and their personal voting choices, that's another great thing about Democracy that I appreciate.

Just like we can appropriately criticize elected officials, we can also appropriately criticize the people who say things and vote in ways that helps or could help those officials to be elected.

You are saying things that could help Trump get elected again, even if that's not your intention. It's your right to say those things that could help Trump get elected again. It's also might right to criticize you for saying those things that could help Trump get elected again.

 

[Heathen]

Biden can't stop Israel from doing anything without engaging in battle with Israeli troops.

Maybe not stop anything full scale, but limit? Certainly.

Sanctions, arms embargo, support UN resolution condemning Israel’s actions, suspend diplomatic relations..I think there are certainly options there.

That would be a disaster for everyone on the planet and make things much worse for the people in Gaza. What's happening to the people in Gaza is a terrible tragedy, but it would be much worse if the US engaged against Israeli troops.

That never crossed my mind.

Just from what little is publicly known, Biden has done significant things to get Israel to act with some restraint. Biden is not quietly letting Israel do whatever Israel wants. Israel would very much like to be doing a lot worse things than the terrible things they are currently doing. The US and other nations are the only reason Israel is not doing those worse things they'd like to be doing to the people of Gaza.

So the US is the only reason Israel is not being treated worse? I’m not sure how one makes that argument with a straight face.

They literally supply most of Israel’s arms.

So they’re actually a primary reason the people of Gaza are being treated so badly, if you just want to talk simple numbers.

Who are Israel’s main weapons suppliers and who has halted exports?

In 2016 the U.S. and Israel signed a third 10-year Memorandum of Understanding covering the 2018-2028 period providing for $38 billion in military aid, $33 billion in grants to buy military equipment and $5 billion for missile defense systems. Israel received 69% of its military aid from the U.S. in the 2019-2023 period, according to a March fact sheet issued by the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI).

If you disagree that Biden can't stop Israel, please explain what you think Biden can do to stop Israel.

I gave suggestions above.

Your criticism of Biden is not helpful to the people of Gaza in any way either, but you have a right to voice your criticism even though it's not helpful.

Do you think that any of Biden’s policy decisions with regard to Israel have come as a result of domestic blowback from letting Israel carpet bomb children?

You are saying things that could help Trump get elected again, even if that's not your intention. It's your right to say those things that could help Trump get elected again. It's also might right to criticize you for saying those things that could help Trump get elected again.

So..Now a Democratic voter being critical of a Biden policy a message board is going to get Trump elected by stuff I say?

I’ve truly heard it all now.

 

[GrandAdmiral]

Your criticism of Biden is not helpful to the people of Gaza in any way either, but you have a right to voice your criticism even though it's not helpful.

I'm pretty sure the people of Gaza appreciate any support they get, no matter where it comes from.

I absolutely, unabashedly have been and will be critical of what people say about candidates and their personal voting choices, that's another great thing about Democracy that I appreciate.

As long as the same is reciprocated. But you're right. It's the one thing about our country that should be appreciated, even though we're not a true democracy.

Just like we can appropriately criticize elected officials, we can also appropriately criticize the people who say things and vote in ways that helps or could help those officials to be elected. You are saying things that could help Trump get elected again, even if that's not your intention. It's your right to say those things that could help Trump get elected again. It's also might right to criticize you for saying those things that could help Trump get elected again.

Help him get elected with who? The people here on MAP? I'm pretty certain everyone on this board have their minds made up about who they're voting for in November. The people of Utah? Like Louisiana, Heathen could vote for Biden 1,000 times and Trump still wins that state by double digits in all certainty. He's not saying anything that will help get Trump elected. You're reaching.

As I mentioned before, you can hate Trump and despise Biden's policy towards Israel at the same time. They are not mutually dependent of one another, especially in electoral politics.

 

[LA - L.A.]

As long as the same is reciprocated. But you're right. It's the one thing about our country that should be appreciated, even though we're not a true democracy.

‘America Is a Republic, Not a Democracy’ Is a Dangerous—And Wrong—Argument

Enabling sustained minority rule at the national level is not a feature of our constitutional design, but a perversion of it.

www.theatlantic.com

 

[LA - L.A.]

So..Now a Democratic voter being critical of a Biden policy a message board is going to get Trump elected by stuff I say?

This kind of hyperbolic twisting of what I actually wrote is one of many reasons that I suspect you are either being disingenuous or not capable of being reasonable on this issue.

You know I didn't say that "you are going to get Trump elected."

You know that I said that the things you say here could help to get Trump elected.

I think you're too bright and educated to not understand the difference between those two statements.

 

[GrandAdmiral]

‘America Is a Republic, Not a Democracy’ Is a Dangerous—And Wrong—Argument

Enabling sustained minority rule at the national level is not a feature of our constitutional design, but a perversion of it.

www.theatlantic.com

An opinion piece? Got it.

 

[Incumbent]

Why can't both exist? I despise Trump as much as you do. However, I also hate Biden's approach to the situation in Gaza. Both can occur. Again, if I lived in a state that mattered, I would still criticize Biden. But come November, I would gladly vote for him.

But there is nothing wrong with hating Trump while despising Biden's policy on Israel.

I think we’re talking past each other.

Again, I’m not telling anybody what to do. And I’m not talking about expressing criticism.

I realize what we say here is reaching a very small audience. Part of my thinking on this is the collective efforts put into suppressing support for a candidate, like we saw with Clinton. Yeah, it’s especially crazy to me to see that from people who otherwise hope that candidate wins.

But, certainly, GrandAdmiral, I expect you and everybody else to vote in the way that feels right to you. These conversations are about exchanging ideas, sharing our perspectives, and making our cases. Right?

Do you never have opinions about what people say and do? (That’s rhetorical, of course you do.)

 

[LA - L.A.]

An opinion piece? Got it.

An opinion piece in opposition to you your opinion. So what exactly is your point in pointing out it's an opinion piece?

By the way, it's a fact that our Constitution is rooted in the idea of people having a say in our government by way of voting. The Bill of Rights is grounded solely in democratic principles.

If we what to split definitional hairs, the US is a hybrid of pure democratic rule and a limited republic. The federal level is more limited republic than pure democratic. The state level is more pure democratic than limited republican in the majority of states.

To say generically and categorically that we are not really a democracy implies that we are not really a government of the people by the people, which we absolutely are. That's a fact not an opinion. We are not perfect or without corruption in that, but we are constitutionally a government by the people and for the people.

Even the Electoral College was more equally representative until Congress passed a law freezing the number of seats in the House. That was never suppose to happen. It's one of the mistakes we made that we need to correct.

 

[Incumbent]

An opinion piece? Got it.

We’re a representative democracy, which is certainly a form of democracy.

When you say we aren’t a “true” democracy, what do you mean?

 

[Incumbent]

We aren’t a direct democracy, but there are few examples of that. There are other forms, with representative being one of them.

The U.S. is a democracy, but it’s mostly been a right wing talking point to refute that, especially in recent decades, which now looks like a run-up to the next step of seeking to overturn our democracy.

 

[GrandAdmiral]

We’re a representative democracy

That, we are...

 

[zztop]

Not just (R) voted for this

https://www.axios.com/2024/06/04/icc-sanctions-vote-house-passes

 

[Heathen]

This kind of hyperbolic twisting of what I actually wrote is one of many reasons that I suspect you are either being disingenuous or not capable of being reasonable on this issue.

I didn’t have to twist your hyperbole for you. I’ll read it back - not paraphrasing:

You: “It’s your right to say things that can help get Trump elected”
Me: “So what I say can get Trump elected?”
You: “You’re either disingenuous or incapable of reason.”

What is the logical end state of helping Trump get elected? By the very reason you use, the end state is “get Trump elected”. Yet when I repeat what logically follows from what you said back to you, I’m dishonest or incapable of reason?

Cmon, man. You really gonna dig your heels in here? Let’s just skip the personal stuff and move on.

 

[LA - L.A.]

I didn’t have to twist your hyperbole for you. I’ll read it back - not paraphrasing:

Let me point out how the conversation actually went.


I originally said:

You are saying things that could help Trump get elected again​

You read and quoted what I said and originally responded with:

So..Now a Democratic voter being critical of a Biden policy a message board is going to get Trump elected by stuff I say?​

So I responded by pointing out:

You know I didn't say that "you are going to get Trump elected."​

​

You know that I said that the things you say here could help to get Trump elected.​

Then you read and quoted what I said above and changed what you actually originally said when you did your so called "read it back - not paraphrasing":

You: “It’s your right to say things that can help get Trump elected”​

Me: “So what I say can get Trump elected?” (You orginally claimed I said is going to get Trump elected)​

You: “You’re either disingenuous or incapable of reason.”​

In your alleged not paraphrasing read back, you actually contextually changed what you said which contextually changed the what I said and the flow of the conversation.

I can't know if you did it intentionally or not, but you did it. I see you repeatedly do the same thing to other posters in this thread who disagree with you. You ask them questions about what they've said in a way that blatantly changes the context of what they clearly said.

 

[GrandAdmiral]

Not just (R) voted for this

https://www.axios.com/2024/06/04/icc-sanctions-vote-house-passes

Dumb. What purpose does it serve? Does absolutely nothing while the rest of the world looks at the hypocrites we are.