Israel vs Hamas (1 Viewer)

[GrandAdmiral]

Looks like the fight is on with Israeli soldiers and civilians amongst the dead already. Question becomes, how long before we get dragged into this?

Netanyahu says Israel is ‘at war’ after Hamas launches surprise attack, takes hostages | CNN

Israel’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu declared that the country was “at war” on Saturday, after Palestinian militants in Gaza fired a deadly barrage of rockets and sent gunmen into Israeli territory in a major escalation of the long running conflict between the two sides.

www.cnn.com

 

[LA - L.A.]

I think I can see and understand both perspectives here. I can see how the comment could make someone defensive, especially when taken in the context of the broader conversation where he's feeling a bit cornered by the criticism, even if it's justified.

But I also can understand the sentiment where the criticism of Biden could give people the idea that a given person should not vote for him in November. That isn't the intent, but that could leave a mark.

I do think there's room for both views here.

I understand @Heathen's position and it's understandable. I'm just genuinely concerned about how just a few people here and there can ripple out and gain momentum. I don't ask or expect @Heathen or anyone else to not speak their truth.

If Trump wins, I'm sincerely convinced that the only way we don't lose our democracy is the pro-democracy group beats Trump's anti-democracy group in a violent conflict. If Trump wins we will have to literally fight to keep our Democracy.

The violent conflict won't end at the US borders. It will erupt all over the planet and with so many nations having nukes, it would be a real dicey situation.

 

[zztop]

Apparently IDF rescued 4 hostages. According to what I read, there were more hostages, but some died in, or around, the area at the time of the operation. Also apparently 274 people were killed and 698 wounded, of those were 64 children, 57 women and 37 elderly people.

'Ultimate surprise': How an Israeli raid freed 4 hostages and killed scores of Palestinians in Gaza

They arrived in the middle of the day, when the squat concrete buildings of the Nuseirat refugee camp are stifling and the narrow streets outside are filled with people.

apnews.com

 

[GrandAdmiral]

Apparently IDF rescued 4 hostages. According to what I read, there were more hostages, but some died in, or around, the area at the time of the operation. Also apparently 274 people were killed and 698 wounded, of those were 64 children, 57 women and 37 elderly people.

'Ultimate surprise': How an Israeli raid freed 4 hostages and killed scores of Palestinians in Gaza

They arrived in the middle of the day, when the squat concrete buildings of the Nuseirat refugee camp are stifling and the narrow streets outside are filled with people.

apnews.com

To save 4 people. Is that justifiable?

 

[DaveXA]

To save 4 people. Is that justifiable?

I think it would depend on what they knew prior to the raid. First blush, it definitely doesn't seem justifiable.

 

[SaintForLife]

Jake Sullivan: "The Palestinian people are going through sheer hell in this conflict because Hamas is operating in a way that puts them in the crossfire, that holds hostages right in the heart of crowded civilian areas, that puts military emplacements right in the heart of crowded civilian areas"

 

[SaintForLife]

This is crazy, but unfortunately not surprising.

 

[SamAndreas]

To save 4 people. Is that justifiable?

You should look into our past and see what our government has at times been willing to spend to get our people back.

Why we'd spend that much and even more, even spending it knowing, or at least suspecting ahead of time that they were no longer living people.

We have paid off with our living to buy back dead decaying bodies of our people quite a few times during our 250 years.

We justify it by saying it's "necessary." Our Air Force convinced me that it is not only necessary, it is expedient.

We'll justify it in the long run if we do it this way despite it not making a lick of sense from a rational standpoint. It is wise to be a nation state who is known worldwide for being most ruthless about getting their own people, dead or alive, back.

Always get them back if it's possible to do so.

 

[SamAndreas]

This is crazy, but unfortunately not surprising.

It's not surprising that you would take such a ridiculous conspiracy theory at face value. I've grown accustomed to that.

However "crazy" is not a proper synonym for "ignorant," which is the way you clearly used it.

 

[DaveXA]

This is crazy, but unfortunately not surprising.

That's a bald faced lie. Lol.

I actually personally know 2 Congressmen and 1 Congresswoman and this isn't true for any of them.

 

[efil4]

This is crazy, but unfortunately not surprising.

Your X links have gone from a lady who had a cooking channel to an ex MMA fighter who is self described as a right wing extremist.

 

[DaveXA]

Your X links have gone from a lady who had a cooking channel to an ex MMA fighter who is self described as a right wing extremist.

I mean, he thinks it's an improvement. Lol.

 

[GrandAdmiral]

You should look into our past and see what our government has at times been willing to spend to get our people back.

No need to. I've studied it academically and personally. Doesn't make it any more right.

 

[SamAndreas]

No need to. I've studied it academically and personally. Doesn't make it any more right.

It's not a right or wrong situation. It's a morale amoung the military troops thing. It's necessity as a military morale issue outweighs the moral issue as to the trade off in the numbers of human beings lost.

The thing about accounting for military costs, the general principle for weighing those costs is don't weigh those costs. Ignore that kind of bank book accounting, it doesn't apply.

Sometimes It's OK to use a million dollar weapon to bring down a $1,000 drone. Sometimes it's OK to lose 50 to save one. Don't do that kind of accounting, it's isn't a moral issue, it is primarily a morale issue, both among our troops, and most of our population.

It's a case that moral factors comes in second place to morale. Moral factors never will be more important than morale.

Moral factors are niceties. Morale factors are necessities. They do not compare, that one little tiny "e" at the end of one of the two words makes all the difference between them.

One word is a nice word, however the exact same word with the extra "e" added at the end becomes the driving necessity.

 

[SaintForLife]

That's a bald faced lie. Lol.

I actually personally know 2 Congressmen and 1 Congresswoman and this isn't true for any of them.

Like Massie said, Congressman don't want people to know that's the case so if that is true I seriously doubt those people you know personally would tell you that.

It wouldn't be surprising considering how much influence Israel has on out government. Like Massie said, they held 14 votes on Israel in one month. Massie said they hadn't held 14 votes on America that month.

 

[SaintForLife]

Your X links have gone from a lady who had a cooking channel to an ex MMA fighter who is self described as a right wing extremist.

Says the guy who constantly posts from the Neocon propaganda think tank The Institute for the Study of War while thinking they were actually credible. How were you not familiar with the Kagans and their history?

 

[GrandAdmiral]

It's not a right or wrong situation. It's a morale amoung the military troops thing. It's necessity as a military morale issue outweighs the moral issue as to the trade off in the numbers of human beings lost.

The thing about accounting for military costs, the general principle for weighing those costs is don't weigh those costs. Ignore that kind of bank book accounting, it doesn't apply.

Sometimes It's OK to use a million dollar weapon to bring down a $1,000 drone. Sometimes it's OK to lose 50 to save one. Don't do that kind of accounting, it's isn't a moral issue, it is primarily a morale issue, both among our troops, and most of our population.

It's a case that moral factors comes in second place to morale. Moral factors never will be more important than morale.

Moral factors are niceties. Morale factors are necessities. They do not compare, that one little tiny "e" at the end of one of the two words makes all the difference between them.

One word is a nice word, however the exact same word with the extra "e" added at the end becomes the driving necessity.

Spoken like a true military man.

 

[DaveXA]

Like Massie said, Congressman don't want people to know that's the case so if that is true I seriously doubt those people you know personally would tell you that.

It wouldn't be surprising considering how much influence Israel has on out government. Like Massie said, they held 14 votes on Israel in one month. Massie said they hadn't held 14 votes on America that month.

Again, it's a bald faced lie, and that you lap it up is forking shameful.

 

[zztop]

To save 4 people. Is that justifiable?

Personally, no. It makes me very uncomfortable how 'value' or 'worth' is applied disproportionately to humans in certain situations. Whether intentional, or as a circumstance due to crowding of civilians with no safe place to shelter, 100 (or however many) civilian lives is not an acceptable trade for 4. Since I am expressing personal views, I would not be surprised if Netanyahu thought he needed a political 'win', saw this rescue operation as an opportunity/solution, and didn't care how many civilians died in the process