General Election 2024 Harris vs Trump (2 Viewers)

[SamAndreas]

Today it begins, Kamala has reached the point that she's the Democratic Party nominee:

There's video from today. this link has video from her first public appearance since Biden endorsed her:

https://www.cnbc.com/2024/07/22/live-updates-harris-democrats-biden-drops-out-trump-campaign.html

She spent yesterday on the telephone for most of the day. I read that yesterday that she called the party leaders in all 50 states. That would take me three days.

She's renamed her YouTube channel, that's the where to go for video: https://www.youtube.com/@kamalaharris

This is her video on her channel from two hours ago:



To play it, start it, and then move it up to 5:47. This was one of those live videos which don't start at zero.

I've named this thread General Election 2024 Harris vs Trump

Trump needs an introduction post as well, a MAGA suporter ought to write it: @Farb, @SaintForLife , @Others, calling for someone to please introduce your GOP candidate for this 2024 general election thread.

 

[Infoman]

Trump is who he is and he's not capable of change.

Now, what are the "guardrails" that's gonna prevent him from acting out his Project 2025 Agenda 47 policies? Keep in mind, in order for him to accomplish his written plans, it requires several laws and regulations to be overturned. What is there to stop that from happening? The courts are already polluted with Federalist Society and Heritage Foundation zealots that are eager to allow his unitary executive authority. SCOTUS? HA!

What will stop him from impeaching the 3 remaining "evil" Justices on the court? Congress? Ha! This congress is littered with those that tacitly joined in the plot to overthrow the Biden Administration before it even took office.

What I'm saying is that your hypothetical question is based off a flawed idea that trump will not act on his own worst rhetoric from this campaign due to his own good will, adherence to current law and the US Constitution.

I know what I am asking... The question is - What if none of that happens.... The world keeps spinning... And we have another election in 2028 (He's been POTUS before - there is a precedent to expect that we just keep on keeping on)?

Do you still believe all this BS that keeps getting piped over the loud speaker to piss you off and farm your vote... or do you change that mindset? And I am being clear... I ask both sides this... because that's the real threat to Democracy... the inability to compromise with discourse on your neighbors' differences and find middle ground... If everything we don't agree on is Hitler or Castro... We are cooked.

 

[Lapaz]

I’ll sort of answer your question. I’m a longtime lurker - 41, female with two kids who voted Republican my entire life until 2020. I was and still am worried about Trump winning, but I think people need to calm down. He’s not Hitler. I find it ironic that people are so panicked about things he has said when the number one thing he does is lie. I think the majority of what he said was just whatever he thought he needed to say to win.

Also, people have the attention span of a gnat. People are loyal to him because they think he benefits them. Even uneducated voters. They will all turn on him on a dime when they don’t see the benefit anymore.

Rich people have their wealth tied up in stock - especially Musk. All of this talk about crashing the economy is just talk because the value of Tesla goes poof if no one can afford to buy Teslas anymore.

The BIG problem is one no one is talking about - our national debt. Financially speaking we are bankrupt. If I was sitting in a country wanting to take us down I’d be doing everything I could to get the reserve currency off of the USD. That would do more damage to us than a nuke would. No one has the guts to even say it, but taxes need to go up and government spending needs to go down. I actually hope the project 2025 stuff about government shrinkage is true. The problem is no one on the world stage cares, then all of a sudden one day they will and it’s going to be ugly. The cuts we are going to have to face will be so large that most of the government we know exists today will have no money left. We’ve lost the ability to problem solve. We can’t talk to anyone who disagrees with us and come to a solution on anything. The giant elephant in the room isn’t Trump - it’s the debt.

I agree with some of what you're saying, but you are ignoring his actions in his first term, which will almost certainly be worse this time. The National debt is a huge problem and it got much worse under Trump, as well as most other presidents, but the way to resolve it is via reducing the annual deficit and growth, both of which were improving steadily under Obama and Biden, and worsened every year under Trump. His plans to cut income taxes and raise consumer taxes via tariffs, and then mass deportation plans will increase the inflation rate, while simultaneously hurting our GDP, which sounds like the recipe for a depression.

Whether he cares about the stock market depends on whether he thinks he needs the billionaires or any of his supporters anymore. The theocrats and haters may still go along. Also, the Project 2025 stuff about government shrinkage is mostly awful. Some reductions are acceptable, but the closures of some important departments like Education, will be terrible. As bad as social media and partisan news has changed our world view, imagine having 50 education departments with disparate facts. Also, Project 2025 wants to eliminate professionals throughout the government, and simultaneously call for increasing the defense department. The free market will fill some of the roles, but some roles aren't profitable, but still important.

He may not be Hitler, but he has certainly followed the pattern that Hitler took, to include demonizing types of people. Trump will make money on his crypto company, even if the USD is weakened. His social media company will also be a tool to make him money via advertising bribes. The rhetoric coupled with the conflicting motivations, to include never leaving office, since he is still under indictment by Georgia, is extraordinarily dangerous. He may not be as awful as his rhetoric suggests, but that is a huge gamble that we never should've taken.

 

[Lapaz]

These are the things that have literally been said the entire election cycle... I am not making them up or over stating them...

I have Dem friends and family that think it's the end of Democracy... because they have been told it is... I have Rep friends and family that think had he not been elected it was the end of Democracy because they have been told so...

Then I have myself and my few moderate IND friends and family that sit around and ask what the hell is wrong with everyone... It's unstainable insanity to keep our politics this way in a 2 party system where the extremes on both sides have the loudest voices and each point to the other side as the End of Days.....

I mean... I ask my people on the Left... Do you think 74M US citizens are really Nazi, Racist, Sexist, Dictator supporters? I ask my people on the Right... Do you think 70M US citizens are Marxist, Communist, Elitist, Deep State Autocrat supporters? No one answers that...

Because if you do.... We have nothing to discuss in good faith anymore... and it's time to 1775 this thing now.

This has to stop.

The problem with your assertion is that there is evidence to support the Dem's fears, whereas there is none to support the Rep's fears. Dems haven't ever threatened democracy. Lawfare was and is nonsense. He committed many crimes, and was only indicted for a few of them. No one else has gotten away with as much as this spoiled brat has gotten away with. The 70M may not all be nazi's, racists, misogynists, and dictator supporters, but there a substantial number are, and I'm guessing a lot more that are sympathetic to it. Large swaths of Republicans love strongmen/dictators, because they think most voters are stupid, and ironically they may be right.

 

[Lapaz]

I know what I am asking... The question is - What if none of that happens.... The world keeps spinning... And we have another election in 2028 (He's been POTUS before - there is a precedent to expect that we just keep on keeping on)?

Do you still believe all this BS that keeps getting piped over the loud speaker to piss you off and farm your vote... or do you change that mindset? And I am being clear... I ask both sides this... because that's the real threat to Democracy... the inability to compromise with discourse on your neighbors' differences and find middle ground... If everything we don't agree on is Hitler or Castro... We are cooked.

This both sides is nonsense. Harris was a stable person that promised to govern normally. Trump promises the opposite, and more people want it. He now thinks he has a mandate to do the things he promised. Which side has been offering to compromise? Which side offered a conservative immigration plan? Which side passed a conservative health plan? What progressive compromise do you think Republicans will offer? Do you think Trump will not try to do implement the things he promised? Is your calm based on the idea that the constitution and institutions will hold? What are the odds that they won't? It feels like we're playing Russian Roulette. It won't kill you every time, but it would make me very nervous to play. On the other hand, the Democrat would've been at worst like playing Monopoly for a while, but knowing you would live to play the game again in a few years.

 

[Infoman]

The problem with your assertion is that there is evidence to support the Dem's fears, whereas there is none to support the Rep's fears. Dems haven't never threatened democracy. Lawfare was and is nonsense. He committed many crimes, and was only indicted for a few of them. No one else has gotten away with as much as this spoiled brat has gotten away with. The 70M may not all nazi's, racists, misogynists, dictator supporters, but there a substantial number are, and I'm guessing a lot more that are sympathetic to it. Large swaths of Republicans love strongmen/dictators, because they think most voters are stupid, and ironically they may be right.

Again, none of that is fact... It's is a POV.... One almost specifically derived from what News / Propaganda / Company you ingest or keep...

And calling ~70M people - (or a substantial number of them) - On either side... Stupid for having to make a binary pre-selected choice between one or the other after being bombarded with divisionary poisonous rhetoric - Is not only not going to fix the situation... It's going to push them further in the other direction. It has to stop.

 

[DJ1BigTymer]

I know what I am asking... The question is - What if none of that happens.... The world keeps spinning... And we have another election in 2028 (He's been POTUS before - there is a precedent to expect that we just keep on keeping on)?

Do you still believe all this BS that keeps getting piped over the loud speaker to piss you off and farm your vote... or do you change that mindset? And I am being clear... I ask both sides this... because that's the real threat to Democracy... the inability to compromise with discourse on your neighbors' differences and find middle ground... If everything we don't agree on is Hitler or Castro... We are cooked.

And I'm saying what is there to stop it from happening?

Trump's agenda is clear and it sets us on he the path where government employees has to pledge loyalty to the Party over the Constitution.

Is that not true?

Look, I'm a retired Vet that served +20 years in service to this country and I took an oath to the Constitution, not an individual. His ideals and Agenda seek to circumvent the Constitution and he is surrounded by individuals that are eager to for him to do so.

If we are still a Democracy in 2028, we won't be the same democracy that we are today, much less than the one we were 30+ years ago. Every chip away from our constitution matters and there are some powerful forces behind him that see the US Constitution as a road block and not a road map.

Any attempt to follow through with P2025 or Agenda 47 continues the erosion of Americans' rights.

No. I will not stop fighting for what I believe the US stands for...Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

 

[jdn9201]

Again, none of that is fact... It's is a POV.... One almost specifically derived from what News / Propaganda / Company you ingest or keep...

And calling ~70M people - (or a substantial number of them) - On either side... Stupid for having to make a binary pre-selected choice between one or the other after being bombarded with divisionary poisonous rhetoric - Is not only not going to fix the situation... It's going to push them further in the other direction. It has to stop.

I think there is evidence that both sides have been a threat to Democracy. Trump for J6 and literally bullying the state of Ga to make up votes. Democrats for screwing Bernie out of the nomination in 2016 and then installing Harris as Bidens replacement for this election. I think there are many people who look at the Dems not having a proper primary as more damaging than J6 tbh. At best, it renders a lot of the fear mongering by the left about J6 a moot point. If the Dem elite is just going to “fix” the nomination process then why even have a primary?

 

[J-DONK]

I think there is evidence that both sides have been a threat to Democracy. Trump for J6 and literally bullying the state of Ga to make up votes. Democrats for screwing Bernie out of the nomination in 2016 and then installing Harris as Bidens replacement for this election. I think there are many people who look at the Dems not having a proper primary as more damaging than J6 tbh. At best, it renders a lot of the fear mongering by the left about J6 a moot point. If the Dem elite is just going to “fix” the nomination process then why even have a primary?

Who actually compares a coup to a horrible nomination process?

The first president to win under the current primary system is still alive.(Carter) Was every election before that just as undemocratic as an attempted coup?

Why do people come on political board, pretend to moderates, and then try both sides horrible behavior to run cover for one party?

I completely agree that Democrats need to have open, and competitive primaries going forward. I think it's thier number 1 issue. Only a pure conserative ideologue would try to say that's worse then upending American democracy all together.

 

[jdn9201]

Who actually compares a coup to a horrible nomination process?

The first president to win under the current primary system is still alive.(Carter) Was every election before that just as undemocratic as an attempted coup?

Why do people come on political board, pretend to moderates, and then try both sides horrible behavior to run cover for one party?

I completely agree that Democrats need to have open, and competitive primaries going forward. I think it's thier number 1 issue. Only a pure conserative ideologue would try to say that's worse then upending American democracy all together.

Maybe others are but I’m not trying to run cover for the right - I’m thinking objectively. Listen, I think J6 is on the top 5 list of worst things to happen to our country (id say 9/11, civil war, Kennedy getting shot, and Pearl Harbor in no certain order ahead of it). I do not think that the Dems screwing their primary is even on the same page with J6.

But others do. I know based on people I know it does. Just because you or I don’t agree, we have to stop invalidating things as reasons just because we don’t agree. It’s the same mistake as calling everyone who voted for trump a racist and a nazi.

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

These are the things that have literally been said the entire election cycle... I am not making them up or over stating them...

I have Dem friends and family that think it's the end of Democracy... because they have been told it is... I have Rep friends and family that think had he not been elected it was the end of Democracy because they have been told so...

Then I have myself and my few moderate IND friends and family that sit around and ask what the hell is wrong with everyone... It's unstainable insanity to keep our politics this way in a 2 party system where the extremes on both sides have the loudest voices and each point to the other side as the End of Days.....

I mean... I ask my people on the Left... Do you think 74M US citizens are really Nazi, Racist, Sexist, Dictator supporters? I ask my people on the Right... Do you think 70M US citizens are Marxist, Communist, Elitist, Deep State Autocrat supporters? No one answers that...

Because if you do.... We have nothing to discuss in good faith anymore... and it's time to 1775 this thing now.

This has to stop.

Look I get that no one wants to hear about fascism 24/7 and it is natural to recoil from that language. But I don't think it's wrong to say there should be a set of common norms and beliefs that should be reinforced all the time by everyone.

What do you think a proper response should be to someone who says that sometimes rights in the Constitution should be suspended?

What do you think a proper response should be to someone who requests that the military shoot protestors in the legs?

What do you think a proper response should be to someone who praises dictators? And speaking with admiration and not repulsion to ruling their countries with an iron fist?

What is the proper response when you hear that people align with him politically say that he is a fascist and does not respect the Constitution?

What is the proper response when you hear that one of his advisors wants to de-naturalize immigrants of their US citizenship?

I can go on... not minding if the press gets shot, it should be illegal to publish bad polls against him, news agencies should be stripped over their rights for doing a story he doesn't like... etc.

So, sure, I get the impulse to believe things are an exaggeration and so on -- but when someone says something so repugnant - even if you believe it's an exaggeration. Isn't the proper response complete and unanimous condemnation at least until the person issues a retraction? Is it not natural to be concerned when such a unanimous condemnation does not occur?

 

[DJ1BigTymer]

Again, none of that is fact... It's is a POV.... One almost specifically derived from what News / Propaganda / Company you ingest or keep...

Fact: Trump cut taxes for billionaires and the middleclass paid for it.

How the 2017 Tax Act Has Affected CBO’s GDP and Budget Projections Since January 2017

CBO Director Keith Hall discusses changes to CBO’s economic forecast since January 2017 and provides an estimate of the portion of those changes that can be attributed to the enactment of the 2017 tax act.

www.cbo.gov

https://www.cbpp.org/research/federal-tax/fundamentally-flawed-2017-tax-law-largely-leaves-low-and-moderate-income

The middle class needs a tax cut: Trump didn't give it to them

Isabel Sawhill and Christopher Pulliam look at how President Trump's recent tax cuts will hurt the American middle class in the long run.

www.brookings.edu

Fact: Trump acted against Civil Liberties.

America the Trumped: 10 ways the administration attacked civil rights in year one

When Donald Trump stood on a stage in Cleveland to accept the Republican nomination for the presidency in July 2016, he declared he would be the voice of the American people, the sole champion for the vulnerable and forgotten.

www.splcenter.org

Trump threatens military force against protesters nationwide

WASHINGTON (AP) — Wielding extraordinary federal authority, President Donald Trump threatened the nation’s governors on Monday that he would deploy the military to states if they did not stamp out violent protests over police brutality that have roiled the nation over the past week.

apnews.com

Fact: Trump aligns himself with ant-government militias such as The Oathkeepers an Proud Boys.

Fact: He was impeached TWICE for his unconstitutional actions, only to be saved by his accomplices in the Senate.

Shall I continue?

You chose to ignore these FACTS and dismiss them a hyperbole, I will confront those facts. You like to go on about this being both sides BS when it's clearly not. This past election was a bipartisan effort against trump and yet, millions of Americans ignored that and chose to continue down this path.

How should we address that fact?

 

[Lapaz]

Again, none of that is fact... It's is a POV.... One almost specifically derived from what News / Propaganda / Company you ingest or keep...

And calling ~70M people - (or a substantial number of them) - On either side... Stupid for having to make a binary pre-selected choice between one or the other after being bombarded with divisionary poisonous rhetoric - Is not only not going to fix the situation... It's going to push them further in the other direction. It has to stop.

What valid reason is there to vote for Trump? If the reason a person uses to vote for Trump is invalid, then that person is either ignorant, stupid, or immoral.

 

[Lapaz]

Maybe others are but I’m not trying to run cover for the right - I’m thinking objectively. Listen, I think J6 is on the top 5 list of worst things to happen to our country (id say 9/11, civil war, Kennedy getting shot, and Pearl Harbor in no certain order ahead of it). I do not think that the Dems screwing their primary is even on the same page with J6.

But others do. I know based on people I know it does. Just because you or I don’t agree, we have to stop invalidating things as reasons just because we don’t agree. It’s the same mistake as calling everyone who voted for trump a racist and a nazi.

So you agree the Democrats are NOT a threat to democracy. At best, Democrats are a threat to their own party, not the nation. Republicans literally tried to steal the election in 2020, and Trump's plans are likely to undermine democracy.

 

[Infoman]

What valid reason is there to vote for Trump? If the reason a person uses to vote for Trump is invalid, then that person is either ignorant, stupid, or immoral.

I have no idea... have an objective and introspective conversation with one, and see what comes of it... I have.... They say the same thing about you. I still laugh at them and remind them that they said Obama would end Democracy... They stare blankly and give a similar answer that you have... I have a strong felling this will be the same thing I end up discussing here in a year or 2... Keep doing what you're doing I guess.

Keep pointing to partisan smoke and mirrors as fact... Keep calling your fellow American's Stupid Sexists Racists Nazi's because they disagree... Only listen to the voices you agree with... Discount everything you don't like... It's a bold move... Let's see how it works out.

 

[Lapaz]

I have no idea... have an objective and introspective conversation with one, and see what comes of it... I have.... They say the same thing about you. I still laugh at them and remind them that they said Obama would end Democracy... I have a strong felling this will be the same thing I end up doing here in a year or 2... Keep doing what you're doing I guess.

Did they give you a valid reason? If not, then they are stupid, ignorant, or immoral. Me and dozens of others have given valid reasons to vote for Kamala. I'm still waiting for the valid reason that justifies a vote for Trump.

 

[DJ1BigTymer]

I have no idea... have an objective and introspective conversation with one, and see what comes of it... I have.... They say the same thing about you. I still laugh at them and remind them that they said Obama would end Democracy... I have a strong felling this will be the same thing I end up doing here in a year or 2... Keep doing what you're doing I guess.

OK,

Given the evidence of both Obama's and Trump's Presidencies, which side fears are rational?

 

[jdn9201]

So you agree the Democrats are NOT a threat to democracy. At best, Democrats are a threat to their own party, not the nation. Republicans literally tried to steal the election in 2020, and Trump's plans are likely to undermine democracy.

Correct. But do I also agree that OTHERS could believe Dems rigging primaries is a threat and a valid reason? Also correct.

 

[jdn9201]

Did they give you a valid reason? If not, then they are stupid, ignorant, or immoral. Me and dozens of others have given valid reasons to vote for Kamala. I'm still waiting for the valid reason that justifies a vote for Trump.

I’ll give you one - because men and minorities are tired of being ignored by the left. Go read up on Barron Trump’s idea to push his dad to go on podcasts that had massive social media following. Harris made a HUGE mistake by not doing a Rogan interview. How little of a voting block can one think when the only reason the left gave for men to vote for Harris is “Trump is bad! Think of the women in your life who may need an abortion”. Nope. Not good enough