General Election 2024 Biden vs Trump (4 Viewers)

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  • SteveSBrickNJ

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    As we head toward the summer and the National Party Conventions, it might be handy to have a thread focused on the upcoming matchup of current President Biden vs Former President Trump.
    As of April 28,2024 , CNN's poll shows Trump leading. Yet polls are not always accurate and they are constantly changing.
    Feel free to use this thread for all things relating to Biden vs Trump.
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    Elon Musk and the entrepreneur and investor David Sacks reportedly held a secret dinner party of billionaires and millionaires in Hollywood last month. Its purpose: to defeat Joe Biden and re-install Donald Trump in the White House.

    The guest list included Peter Thiel, Rupert Murdoch, Michael Milken, Travis Kalanick, and Steven Mnuchin, Trump’s treasury secretary.

    Meanwhile, Musk is turning up the volume and frequency of his anti-Biden harangues on Twitter/X, the platform he owns.


    According to an analysis by the New York Times, Musk has posted about the president at least seven times a month, on average, this year. He has criticized Biden on issues ranging from Biden’s age to his policies on health and immigration, calling Biden “a tragic front for a far left political machine”.

    The Times analysis showed that over the same period of time, Musk has posted more than 20 times in favor of Trump, claiming that the criminal cases the former president now faces are the result of media and prosecutorial bias.

    This is no small matter. Musk has 184 million followers on X, and because he owns the platform he’s able to manipulate the algorithm to maximize the number of people who see his posts.

    No other leader of a social media firm has gone as far as Musk in supporting authoritarian leadersaround the world. In addition to Trump, Musk has used his platform in support of India’s Narendra Modi, Argentina’s Javier Milei and Brazil’s Jair Bolsonaro.

    Some of this aligns with Musk’s business interests. In India, he secured lower import tariffs for Tesla vehicles. In Brazil, he opened a major new market for Starlink, SpaceX’s satellite internet service. In Argentina, he solidified access to lithium, the mineral most crucial to Tesla’s batteries.

    But something deeper is going on. Musk, Thiel, Murdoch and their cronies are leading a movement against democracy.


    Peter Thiel, the billionaire tech financier, once wrote: “I no longer believe that freedom and democracy are compatible.”

    If freedom is not compatible with democracy, what is it compatible with?…..

    I think it's the tech industry equivalent of the German chemical industry conglomerate of IG Farben. Fascist movements have always been propped up and funded by those seeking financial gain. Here's a little background on who propped up the most famous fascists of them all, the Nazi's, and why they did it.




    If you do a deep dive into the history of the rise of the Nazi party, you will learn that the Nazi's learned their tricks and took their cues from American robber barons and the governments of the Jim Crow south. And then after the war we brought guys like this over here.


    We have always had a Nazi problem in this country,. because Nazi is just a different DBA for the same thing that the KKK, White Nationalists and now MAGA are. They're just different subsidiaries of the same damn corporate parent.

    Each uses different qualifiers (skin color, religion, nationality, etc.) to determine who are the upper/elite caste and who are the lower/subhuman class, but they all create caste systems designed to create cheap-to-slave labor for the elite class to exploit so that they can live lives of excessive privilege. It may look like an issue of skin color, religion, nationality, etc., but it's always really and only just about class and caste, the working class/caste serving the leisure class/caste.

    It's not an ongoing conspiracy by a singular, eternal cabal like the Illuminati, the Free Masons, or any other group of conspiracy fantasy. It's just an effective tactic sociopaths and psychopaths throughout history have used to manipulate and subjugate the masses.
     
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    I believe everyone has a right to follow whatever cult or religion they choose to. And the only thing I judge either on is how they treat people. I don't care what anyone chooses to belief, as long as they don't infringe on others are hurt them in any way.

    I think the only real difference between a cult and a religion is that a religions is what I/We belong to and a cult is what they/them belong too.

    Looking at it objectively, every religion has very supernatural, unverifiable mythical beliefs and every religion teaches their followers "we" are right in our beliefs and everyone else is wrong in theirs.

    Religions and cults also grow their congregations using mostly the same tactics.

    Also, every major world religion has been used to justify countless crimes against humanity throughout the ages.
    A religion is just a cult that has grown enough to achieve social acceptance.
     
    I'm hoping that bump in votes for Trump in 2020 had more to do with COVID angst and anger, especially in regards to masking mandates and remote learning. I think and hope that a lot of Trump's votes in 2020 were more just protests votes against Democrats, because it was mostly in Democratic ruled areas that there were masking mandates and remote learning.

    I dunno, maybe I am just poor at predicting people's actions lol. I remember in 2016 thinking "people will see his horrible character, he surely has no chance. Surely nobody would vote for someone like him" ....to then "maybe this country deserves someone like him, to show people how awful it can be" then to... "surely after 4 years of seeing his garbage and dragging his anus all over democracy, SURELY people learned from THAT and won't vote for him again" (only for more to vote for him)
     
    I dunno, maybe I am just poor at predicting people's actions lol. I remember in 2016 thinking "people will see his horrible character, he surely has no chance. Surely nobody would vote for someone like him" ....to then "maybe this country deserves someone like him, to show people how awful it can be" then to... "surely after 4 years of seeing his garbage and dragging his anus all over democracy, SURELY people learned from THAT and won't vote for him again" (only for more to vote for him)
    that's a lot of"hold my beer" moments
     
    The Republican National Committee is launching a campaign to encourage Republicans to vote by mail — something former president Donald Trump has spent years telling his voters can’t be trusted.


    The RNC — which Trump effectively controls — is starting an effort called “Swamp the Vote” to promote absentee, mail and early voting, Trump’s campaign said Tuesday.


    “Many Republicans like to vote on Election Day, and we must swamp the radical Democrats with massive turnout on Tuesday, November 5th,” Trump said in a video promoting the effort.

    “The way you win is to swamp them. If we swamp them, they can’t cheat. It just doesn’t work out. But if you can’t make it, you need to make a plan, register and vote any way possible.”

    Sen. Steve Daines (R-Mont.), the National Republican Senatorial Committee chairman and a Trump ally, said he was “very pleased to see the leadership President Trump was demonstrating that we’ve got to start banking votes and getting our voters out much earlier.”
Daines said he and others have talked about it “extensively” with Trump.

    “President Trump wants to win,” he said. “And this is a winning strategy.”


    Mixed messages


    Trump has castigated voting by mail since 2020, when many states made it easier amid the pandemic.

    Without providing any evidence to back up his claim, he said during his first debate with Joe Biden that mail-in ballots might be dumped in creeks or wastepaper baskets.


    Trump kept up those attacks after he lost the election, even as some Republicans sounded alarms that they would cost the party votes.

    He continued them even after he recorded a video last year for another RNC campaign to encourage mail and early voting.


    Trump disparaged mail-in voting as recently as last month…….

     
    The Republican National Committee is launching a campaign to encourage Republicans to vote by mail — something former president Donald Trump has spent years telling his voters can’t be trusted.


    The RNC — which Trump effectively controls — is starting an effort called “Swamp the Vote” to promote absentee, mail and early voting, Trump’s campaign said Tuesday.


    “Many Republicans like to vote on Election Day, and we must swamp the radical Democrats with massive turnout on Tuesday, November 5th,” Trump said in a video promoting the effort.

    “The way you win is to swamp them. If we swamp them, they can’t cheat. It just doesn’t work out. But if you can’t make it, you need to make a plan, register and vote any way possible.”

    Sen. Steve Daines (R-Mont.), the National Republican Senatorial Committee chairman and a Trump ally, said he was “very pleased to see the leadership President Trump was demonstrating that we’ve got to start banking votes and getting our voters out much earlier.”
Daines said he and others have talked about it “extensively” with Trump.

    “President Trump wants to win,” he said. “And this is a winning strategy.”


    Mixed messages


    Trump has castigated voting by mail since 2020, when many states made it easier amid the pandemic.

    Without providing any evidence to back up his claim, he said during his first debate with Joe Biden that mail-in ballots might be dumped in creeks or wastepaper baskets.


    Trump kept up those attacks after he lost the election, even as some Republicans sounded alarms that they would cost the party votes.

    He continued them even after he recorded a video last year for another RNC campaign to encourage mail and early voting.


    Trump disparaged mail-in voting as recently as last month…….

    All this proves is he has zero principles that he lives by. He’s like a goldfish - no thought for tomorrow, just what do I need to say today to stay out of jail? Against TikTok, but a donor wants me to change my mind? No problem. Pro-choice in the past, but to get the evangelical and Catholic vote I have to say I will punish women who get abortions? No problem. I need to overturn an election so I will lie and say mail in voting is fraudulent? No problem. Now I need mail-in votes? No problem.

    He’s a con. In both senses of the word. A confidence man - someone who manipulated folks to get whatever he wanted, and now an actual convicted felon. Karma took way to long in his case.
     
    Donald Trump’s search for a running mate is intensifying, as the former president awaits sentencing on felony charges and prepares for next month’s Republican National Convention.

    Vice presidential contenders recently received vetting materials, five sources familiar with the process told NBC News.

    Trump’s search, according to one source, is heavily concentrated on four top prospects: North Dakota Gov. Doug Burgum and Sens. Marco Rubio of Florida, Tim Scott of South Carolina and JD Vance of Ohio. Another source described a three-way competition involving Burgum, Rubio and Vance.…..

     
    Donald Trump’s search for a running mate is intensifying, as the former president awaits sentencing on felony charges and prepares for next month’s Republican National Convention.

    Vice presidential contenders recently received vetting materials, five sources familiar with the process told NBC News.

    Trump’s search, according to one source, is heavily concentrated on four top prospects: North Dakota Gov. Doug Burgum and Sens. Marco Rubio of Florida, Tim Scott of South Carolina and JD Vance of Ohio. Another source described a three-way competition involving Burgum, Rubio and Vance.…..

    No MTG? Fake news... :hihi:
     
    All this proves is he has zero principles that he lives by. He’s like a goldfish - no thought for tomorrow, just what do I need to say today to stay out of jail? Against TikTok, but a donor wants me to change my mind? No problem. Pro-choice in the past, but to get the evangelical and Catholic vote I have to say I will punish women who get abortions? No problem. I need to overturn an election so I will lie and say mail in voting is fraudulent? No problem. Now I need mail-in votes? No problem.

    He’s a con. In both senses of the word. A confidence man - someone who manipulated folks to get whatever he wanted, and now an actual convicted felon. Karma took way to long in his case.
     
    This could have gone in a few threads
    ==================

    Donald Trump’s position on presidents and crimes is reliably inconsistent:

    • He pushed for prosecutions of many foes — including Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama and Joe Biden — before his own legal problems led him to conclude that presidential candidates and presidents should be spared charges.

    • He said in 2016 that Clinton’s being convicted would lead to a “constitutional crisis” if she were president; now he is pressing forward with his campaign despite his own felony convictions.

    • He has suggested that Clinton, Obama, Ted Cruz and Vice President Harris should be disqualified from running for various reasons. But when critics tried to disqualify him under the 14th Amendment, Trump decided it was unthinkable to deprive voters of their choices.


    For a brief moment this weekend, Trump seemed to acknowledge his convenient evolutions.

    Asked about urging the jailing of Clinton in 2016, he told Fox News, “And then this happened to me, and so I may feel differently about ...” before trailing off.

    And Trump is not the only one to engage in a series of about-faces. So have large swaths of his party.

    It has responded to his legal jeopardy and now his conviction by disowning its previously professed principles in a remarkable fashion.


    A new YouGov poll this week is perhaps the most striking example.


    In April, it showed 58 percent of Republicans said that a convicted felon should not be allowed to become president. But after Trump’s conviction in Manhattan last week, that number plummeted to just 23 percent.


    Republicans in April said by a 41-point margin that a conviction would be disqualifying; they now say by a 35-point margin that it’s not disqualifying.

    The same poll in April showed 37 percent of Republicans said they would not be willing to vote for a convicted felon “under any circumstances.” That number has now dropped to 14 percent.


    It’s also striking that Republicans have flip-flopped (and then flipped again) on the crime Trump was just convicted of.


    YouGov has asked repeatedly since 2018 whether people believe it’s a crime “for a candidate for elected office to pay someone to remain silent about an issue that may affect the outcome of an election.”…….

     
    More people need to actually listen to Trump speaking. He’s nearly incoherent and entirely slimy. He lies with every breath. What he doesn’t know would fill the Grand Canyon, but it doesn’t stop him from acting like he knows. Would be comical if he wasn’t running for President.



     
    A conservative makes the case that this election is too important to “just choose not to choose” between 2 candidates you don’t like:

    “The question isn’t “Biden or Trump?” so much as it’s “Should we continue with the constitutional order as we’ve known it or try something radically different?”

    I’ll guarantee here and now that if Trump becomes president again and remains in good health he’ll try to extend his term in office past 2029. I won’t guarantee that he’ll succeed, but the attempt will be made as surely as you’re reading this. Trump is less a person than a personality type and his type is compelled to pursue its own interests remorselessly above all things. I think he’d honestly find it hard to comprehend why someone in his position shouldn’t try to extend their time in power.

    Biden won’t do that if reelected. (And not just because he might be catatonic by 2029.) He won’t defy court orders. He won’t stock the leadership of the Justice Department with fanatics who have sworn an oath of allegiance to him personally. He won’t call the military out into the streets to confront people protesting him.”

    “There’s another reason not to “choose not to choose” this year. A vote to defeat Trump is a signal to the American right that they mustget off the ideological track they’re on if they want to win national elections.

    That’s the only incentive left that could conceivably steer them away from authoritarianism. Appealing to them morally has failed. Charging Trump criminally has failed. We face the choice that we do in November only because Republican voters insisted on renominating a coup-plotting twice-impeached civic derelict. There’s no reason to think they’ll stop nominating derelicts until they’re convinced that they can’t win by doing so.

    In that context, remaining neutral between Trump and Biden amounts to reassuring Republicans that no matter how low they sink, they’ll never lose your support completely. However flagrantly authoritarian and illiberal they become, you’ll never be so offended by it as to cross the aisle and vote for an establishment Democrat.”

    Great piece. Everyone should read it.

     
    People on the left and the right need to read what Tom says here. If you treat voting as a personal endorsement - well, that’s how we ended up with Trump in 2016. It’s not a personal endorsement, it’s a strategy. It’s a choice between two candidates - that’s the system we have.



     
    I'm hoping that bump in votes for Trump in 2020 had more to do with COVID angst and anger, especially in regards to masking mandates and remote learning. I think and hope that a lot of Trump's votes in 2020 were more just protests votes against Democrats, because it was mostly in Democratic ruled areas that there were masking mandates and remote learning.

    I think voting participation overall is going to be down significantly from 2020. Even with the constraints of COVID, 2020 was ironically the most access voters have ever had to the polls due to expanded ways to vote. All of it carried out without any fraud. But because Trump lost, Republicans have worked overtime since then to limit voting opportunities in service to their orange god and it will have a noticeable effect. I don't think it will help Republicans as much as they seem to have thought when they started their crusade against voting. It will impact their voters as much as it will Democrat voters and I think they know it. That's why they've recently changed their tune on mail-in-voting and are now trying to encourage their voters "to bank" their votes before election day.

    Of course, after the election they will use the lower voter numbers to justify their "2020 was rigged" narrative. Because they have to keep fighting that fight until they can convince the rest of us to change history.
     
    “The question isn’t “Biden or Trump?” so much as it’s “Should we continue with the constitutional order as we’ve known it or try something radically different?”
     
    A conservative makes the case that this election is too important to “just choose not to choose” between 2 candidates you don’t like:

    “The question isn’t “Biden or Trump?” so much as it’s “Should we continue with the constitutional order as we’ve known it or try something radically different?”

    I’ll guarantee here and now that if Trump becomes president again and remains in good health he’ll try to extend his term in office past 2029. I won’t guarantee that he’ll succeed, but the attempt will be made as surely as you’re reading this. Trump is less a person than a personality type and his type is compelled to pursue its own interests remorselessly above all things. I think he’d honestly find it hard to comprehend why someone in his position shouldn’t try to extend their time in power.

    Biden won’t do that if reelected. (And not just because he might be catatonic by 2029.) He won’t defy court orders. He won’t stock the leadership of the Justice Department with fanatics who have sworn an oath of allegiance to him personally. He won’t call the military out into the streets to confront people protesting him.”

    “There’s another reason not to “choose not to choose” this year. A vote to defeat Trump is a signal to the American right that they mustget off the ideological track they’re on if they want to win national elections.

    That’s the only incentive left that could conceivably steer them away from authoritarianism. Appealing to them morally has failed. Charging Trump criminally has failed. We face the choice that we do in November only because Republican voters insisted on renominating a coup-plotting twice-impeached civic derelict. There’s no reason to think they’ll stop nominating derelicts until they’re convinced that they can’t win by doing so.

    In that context, remaining neutral between Trump and Biden amounts to reassuring Republicans that no matter how low they sink, they’ll never lose your support completely. However flagrantly authoritarian and illiberal they become, you’ll never be so offended by it as to cross the aisle and vote for an establishment Democrat.”

    Great piece. Everyone should read it.


    We’ve had a spirited discussion about this in the Hamas-Israel thread. The dangers present in the outcome of this election can’t be overstated.
     
    We’ve had a spirited discussion about this in the Hamas-Israel thread. The dangers present in the outcome of this election can’t be overstated.
    I also like the way Tom Nichols frames it. Preserving some illusion of moral superiority by disdaining both options is the ultimate selfish act. It is saying that you value the ability to think of yourself in a certain way over the actual well-being of your fellow citizens.
     

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