Euthanasia; Yeah or Nay? (2 Viewers)

[Farb]

This is becoming a talking point or will be soon. I personally have no issue with medical assisted suicide in a hospice care environment. There is a push, and this is in Canada, to include the mentally ill, disabled, and even the homeless. That I cannot get behind. What does everyone else think about it?

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/con...-of-abuse-is-becoming-ever-more-apparent.html

How does the unthinkable become not only thinkable, but seemingly inevitable? How do we normalize things we recently considered not just abnormal, but horrifying?

The question arises because a major Canadian medical organization is pushing the idea of allowing doctors to do something that’s long been considered unthinkable and abnormal: killing infants who are born with conditions that make survival impossible.

The Quebec College of Physicians made the case for this before a parliamentary committee studying changes to Canada’s law on medical assistance in dying (MAID), a.k.a. assisted suicide.

To be clear, the college’s proposal involves only newborns with severe malformations whose chance for life is “basically nil.” It wouldn’t be a license to kill babies. But let’s also be clear about this: authorizing doctors to actively euthanize infants — rather than allowing nature to take its course — does cross a line once thought inviolable.

The college suggests blurring things in other ways, too. It supports extending MAID to “mature minors,” i.e. teenagers aged 14 to 17, and wants us to think about allowing euthanasia for old people who are just “tired of living.”

Now, Canada’s laws on MAID have long been stretched far beyond the original (and praiseworthy) concept of sparing terminally ill people from unnecessary agony at the end of their lives, allowing a so-called “death with dignity.” When the law was passed in 2016 it didn’t specify that a person must be terminally ill to qualify for a medically assisted death, and last year it was amended to remove the requirement that death be “reasonably foreseeable.”

https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/famil...ssion-wasn-t-fit-for-assisted-death-1.4609016

A British Columbia man who struggled with depression and showed no signs of facing an imminent demise was given a medically-assisted death despite desperate pleas from his loved ones, family members say.

Alan Nichols was admitted to Chilliwack General Hospital in June, at age 61, after he was found dehydrated and malnourished. One month later, he died by injection.

Days before his death, family members begged Nichols, a former school janitor who lived alone and struggled with depression, not to go through with the procedure. They still don’t know why doctors approved the life-ending procedure and insist that Nichols did not fit the government criteria of facing an “imminent death.”

https://www.foxnews.com/media/canad...law-include-mentally-ill-enable-mature-minors

 

[J-DONK]

Once again, conservatives show that they have no concept of empathy for other peoples’ situation, but somehow manage to rationalize the situation when it affects them directly.

The doctor literally euthanized your loved one. Making someone comfortable and speeding along the process is literally euthanasia.

Farb giving off "The only moral abortion is my own" vibes.

 

[LA - L.A.]

You said Fascists don't like any form of suicide...

That is accurately what I said. What I did not say is "all people who don't like any form of suicide are fascists."

I do not think that all people who don't like any form of suicide are fascists and I did not say that either.

I don't like any forms of suicide. I think they are evil, inhumane and incredibly sad. That makes me a facist in your book,

No, it doesn't.

You are committing this logical fallacy:

• I say, "snakes don't like the smell of clove oil."
• You think, "I don't like the smell of clove oil either, so that makes me a snake in your book."

Fascists are not the only people who don't like any form of suicide.

You jumped to the false conclusion that I was saying all people who dislike suicide are fascists. I wasn't even talking to you or thinking of you when I made my post.

Not everything everyone says is about you, @Farb, so why don't you dial down your vanity a few notches? Right now you have it turned up to 11.

 

[LA - L.A.]

I don't know off hand, but maybe you do, what demographic in the US is committing more suicide?

First, let's not get deflected from the important thing you're trying to deflect from.

The Netherlands healthcare system, which you imply is inferior to the US healthcare system in preventing suicide, actually does a significantly better job at preventing suicides than the US healthcare system does. That's an objective, verified fact. It's not an opinion.

So if one's desire is truly to do a better job of preventing suicides, then the US healthcare system would do better if it did what the Netherlands healthcare system is doing.

Now, I'll answer your question.

I don't know off hand, but maybe you do, what demographic in the US is committing more suicide?

First, if it's important to you, why haven't you researched it to find out for yourself?

Second, I don't know and I'm not going to look it up, because it's not important to me.

I don't give a rat's arse about any demographic breakdowns of people committing or contemplating suicide. There's only two relevant classifications of people committing or contemplating suicide for me. They are:

1. People who are facing any chronic loss of quality of life physically and/or emotionally. I care about all of those people equally regardless of their demographics. I think we should respect their choices and provide them the dignity of respecting their choices and allowing others to assist them with their choices. I believe we should have safeguards in place to prevent predatory and corrupt behavior by those who assist them.
2. People who are struggling with very difficult, but improvable circumstances. Again, couldn't care less what their demographics are, because I care about all of them equally. I think we should provide and pay for whatever assistance they need to help improve their circumstances and their outlook on life.

Why does the demographics of who's committing suicide matter to you, Farb?

 

[LA - L.A.]

My last surviving grandmother, who lived to be almost 95, was bedridden for 5 years. She could not get up, could not clean herself, or go to the bathroom on here own, could barely feed herself. Her memory was mostly gone, her ability to think was mostly gone. I remember thinking how I would never want to be in a situation like that, that I would definitely opt-out if I were in her position.

The thing I wonder about is, being in a situation like that, I would not be able to think about that option, or make a sound decision to opt-out. So who would make the decision? Because you would think the person suffering would need consent, but at that stage, one could not process things. Nobody would make that decision for the person.

How is one suppose to acknowledge/agree to something like that with 'sound mind' while not having a sound mind? It would have to be asked/requested by the individual, but by the time it got to a certain stage, that would not really be a thought and I think it would be difficult to convince the ones to administer it... that the person would actually be aware of what they are asking them to do. I think hospice is a middle ground to all this, because they are there to make the person as comfortable as possible.

The concerns above are addressed with an advanced medical directive also know as a living will. It should included in or be in conjunction with a healthcare power of attorney.

Both documents need to be witnessed and notarized in accordance with local and state law. The advanced medical directive/living will tells everyone what medical care you do and don't want in the event you are unable to do so yourself. The healthcare power of attorney tells everyone who you authorize to speak and make decisions on your behalf if you are unable to do so yourself.

Everyone over the age of 18 living in this country should do both. Not only does it cover what care you want, it can also cover things like organ donation and what is to be done with your body after death. It can be awkward to think about and talk about, but it assures your wishes will be followed and it takes a lot of pressure off of your loves possibly having to make decisions for you without knowing what you specifically would want.

 

[SamAndreas]

What I find most troubling is that it was the medical community that told her "we can no longer help you, nothing will get better' or something along those lines. If those are the mental 'professionals' that are funneling people to state sponsored euthanasia, then we are all in trouble.

Probably,

 

[Bigdaddysaints]

What I find most troubling is that it was the medical community that told her "we can no longer help you, nothing will get better' or something along those lines. If those are the mental 'professionals' that are funneling people to state sponsored euthanasia, then we are all in trouble.

I'm sure you researched and found out all the procedures and tests and medicines and therapy and all the other programs she has tried, right? I'm sure you are not assuming she had one Dr visit and this was decided.. on second thought, I have no doubt you think this was just a routine Dr Visit and this was decided.

 

[Farb]

First, let's not get deflected from the important thing you're trying to deflect from.

The Netherlands healthcare system, which you imply is inferior to the US healthcare system in preventing suicide, actually does a significantly better job at preventing suicides than the US healthcare system does. That's an objective, verified fact. It's not an opinion.

So if one's desire is truly to do a better job of preventing suicides, then the US healthcare system would do better if it did what the Netherlands healthcare system is doing.

Now, I'll answer your question.


First, if it's important to you, why haven't you researched it to find out for yourself?

Second, I don't know and I'm not going to look it up, because it's not important to me.

I don't give a rat's arse about any demographic breakdowns of people committing or contemplating suicide. There's only two relevant classifications of people committing or contemplating suicide for me. They are:

1. People who are facing any chronic loss of quality of life physically and/or emotionally. I care about all of those people equally regardless of their demographics. I think we should respect their choices and provide them the dignity of respecting their choices and allowing others to assist them with their choices. I believe we should have safeguards in place to prevent predatory and corrupt behavior by those who assist them.
2. People who are struggling with very difficult, but improvable circumstances. Again, couldn't care less what their demographics are, because I care about all of them equally. I think we should provide and pay for whatever assistance they need to help improve their circumstances and their outlook on life.

Why does the demographics of who's committing suicide matter to you, Farb?

Did I imply that? I don't think I did. Can you show me?

You support the state and medical community making it easy for those that have a mental illness to commit suicid. Ok.
Is there a limit? Do you think the homeless or poor should also be allowed that option if they want?

 

[Farb]

I'm sure you researched and found out all the procedures and tests and medicines and therapy and all the other programs she has tried, right? I'm sure you are not assuming she had one Dr visit and this was decided.. on second thought, I have no doubt you think this was just a routine Dr Visit and this was decided.

No idea, but do you think a mental health doctor should tell a paitent with depression that the only option is to kill yourself?

Do you think the poor and homeless should also have that option available to them? Where do you think the limit should be?

 

[Farb]

Farb giving off "The only moral abortion is my own" vibes.

Good read. Did I not say that I have no problem with the terminally ill having that option? I did but thanks for jumping in and showing your reading comprehension skill. We are all proud of you.

 

[Farb]

I'm sure this was an oversight, Farb, but it's a great question. I would like to hear your answer, given your firmly held positions.

How often does that happen? Especially now in todays world with cameras, DNA, ect...? But, to satisfy your itch, if it were to happen then that is a mistake but to that is not a reason to stop capital punishment in my opinion. Just as I can agree to allow the abortion of a rape or incest child.
Now, since you support abortion, articulate your stance why you are against capital punishment but not abortion?

 

[Bigdaddysaints]

No idea, but do you think a mental health doctor should tell a paitent with depression that the only option is to kill yourself?

Do you think the poor and homeless should also have that option available to them? Where do you think the limit should be?

Just like with abortion, i woud never recomend it for anyone, and i would advise anyone to find an alternative and use due diligence in making a decision like that and take into account loved ones that it would also affect.
But i don't know enough about Dutch law when it comes to this. But i'm thinking its not as simple as walking into the Drs office and saying, "i'm done, give me the needle. " like i'm pretty sure thats how you think it works.
I am pretty sure there has to be a process.

The law allows medical review board to suspend prosecution of doctors who performed euthanasia when each of the following conditions are fulfilled:

• the patient's suffering is unbearable with no prospect of improvement
• the patient's request for euthanasia must be voluntary and persist over time (the request cannot be granted when under the influence of others, psychological illness or drugs)
• the patient must be fully aware of his/her condition, prospects, and options
• there must be consultation with at least one other independent doctor who needs to confirm the conditions mentioned above
• the death must be carried out in a medically appropriate fashion by the doctor or patient, and the doctor must be present
• the patient is at least 12 years old (patients between 12 and 16 years of age require the consent of their parents)

The doctor must also report the cause of death to the municipal coroner in accordance with the relevant provisions of the Burial and Cremation Act. A regional review committee assesses whether a case of termination of life on request or assisted suicide complies with the due care criteria. Depending on its findings, the case will either be closed or, if the conditions are not met, brought to the attention of the Public Prosecutor. Finally, the legislation offers an explicit recognition of the validity of a written declaration of will of the patient regarding euthanasia (a "euthanasia directive"). Such declarations can be used when a patient is in a coma or otherwise unable to state if they wish to be euthanised.

Euthanasia remains a criminal offense in cases not meeting the law's specific conditions, with the exception of several situations that are not subject to the restrictions of the law at all, because they are not considered euthanasia but normal medical practice:

• stopping or not starting a medically useless (futile) treatment
• stopping or not starting a treatment at the patient's request
• speeding up death as a side-effect of treatment necessary for alleviating serious suffering

Euthanasia of children under the age of 12 remains technically illegal; however, Dr. Eduard Verhagen has documented several cases and, together with colleagues and prosecutors, has developed a protocol to be followed in those cases. Prosecutors will refrain from pressing charges if this Groningen Protocol is followed.

Seems after it has been carried out, a review board has to look over the facts to see if it met the critera and if the doctor didn't he can be criminally charged.

 

[LA - L.A.]

The Netherlands healthcare system, which you imply is inferior to the US healthcare system in preventing suicide, actually does a significantly better job at preventing suicides than the US healthcare system does. That's an objective, verified fact. It's not an opinion.

Did I imply that?

Yes. Farb clearly implied that the Netherlands healthcare system is inferior at preventing suicides to the US healthcare system. Here's the post that he did it in. The first part of the post was the quoting of this article:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/ot...nized-due-to-crippling-depression/ar-BB1kY1d0

She said she decided to be euthanized after her doctors told her, “There’s nothing more we can do for you. It’s never gonna get any better,” according to The Free Press.

“I was always very clear that if it doesn’t get better, I can’t do this anymore,” ter Beek said.

She is just one of the growing number of people in the West who have decided to die rather than continue living in pain that, unlike a terminal illness, could be treated\

The article above, that Farb previously posted, talks about a patient and doctors in the Netherlands. Farb then makes the following comment regarding that article.

Seems this new fad has indeed fallen down the proverbial slippery slope. Wont be long before the push for this is here in the US...

Farb is clearly implying that the Netherlands has fallen down the slippery slope of encouraging people to commit suicide and that soon it will happen in the US.

The fact of the matter remains that the Netherlands has a significantly lower suicide rate than the US which is empirical evidence that the Netherlands is doing a significantly better job of preventing suicides than the US is doing.

The Netherlands has not fallen down any "slippery slope" toward encouraging people to commit suicide as Farb falsely implies that they are.

You support the state and medical community making it easy for those that have a mental illness to commit suicid.

This is a lame and intentionally false strawman style person attack. Farb cannot quote a single time I ever said anything close to me supporting what Farb implies, because I've never said anything of such.

The most common tactic of the illogical and corrupt person is to hurl false personal accusations at the people who speak a truth that they can not refute. That's what Farb is doing here. He has to falsely accuse me of something to try to keep people from hearing the truth that I stated.

A secondary goal is to provoke an emotional response from the person they accuse in the desperate hope that person will lose focus as a result of emotional response. Fortunately, I see exactly what Farb is trying to do which makes it easy to dismiss it for what it is and state focused on the facts.

The facts and the truth are not in Farb's favor, so he's going to keep trying to play these dirty tricks instead of having an honest discussion.

No one should let that frustrate them. Everyone just keep speaking the truth to the lies being told. That's the most important and effective thing we can do. Let them earn whatever stupid prizes they get from playing these stupid games. As long as everyone else sees and knows the truth, them and their prizes don't matter.

 

[J-DONK]

Good read. Did I not say that I have no problem with the terminally ill having that option? I did but thanks for jumping in and showing your reading comprehension skill. We are all proud of you.

The fact you don't comprehend empathy to such an extreme amount, the point zoomed right over your head. Then you talk down, because you can't get it.

OF COURSE you are ok with any situation that effected you personally.

Do you still not get it? I can explain it to you like I would a 5 year old if you need that.

How close are we to being told to go read some 12 year old post on the PDB?

 

[SamAndreas]

I was just thinking it through and during my life I've personally known 14 persons who have killed themselves.

I understood what brought on most of them. A collage friend was kind of weird, he stabbed himself in his stomach on Christmas about 40 years ago. Another jumped off of the Golden Gate Bridge 30 years ago. Lithium was involved with both of them.



Only one was a woman. She drown herself in the Pacific Ocean, made it look like a scuba diving accident so her kids could collect insurance.

The last one, last year, who did it was arrested by federal law enforcement for having killed himself on federal land. They held his body and his pickup truck for a week or two over that. I guess after a while they decided they couldn't get a conviction because he was dead.

 

[LA - L.A.]

...you think a mental health doctor should tell a paitent with depression that the only option is to kill yourself...

That didn't happen according to Farb's own source. Farb's asking a falsely framed and completely unfounded question based on the few facts that were truthfully presented in the article Farb quoted and the source article quoted by the article he quoted. This is the original article that was used as the source for the article Farb quoted.

‘I’m 28. And I’m Scheduled to Die in May.’

Some right-to-die activists want everyone to have access to euthanasia—even young people with mental illness. Are they also making suicide contagious?

www.thefp.com

Nowhere in either article does is say that any mental health doctor said "the only option is to kill yourself." Nowhere in either article does it say anything close to that in regards to Zoraya ter Beek.

In fact, all articles say the opposite. They all accurately say that it Ter Beek's choice after her psychiatrist told her that they had tried everything they could to help ease her suffering from depression and autism. She then made the decision for herself.

No one steered, pressured, fooled, forced or rushed her into her decision.

Now for more truth about Ter Beek's situation:

Physically-healthy 28-year-old Dutch woman will die through euthanasia in May

The 28-year-old Zoraya ter Beek will die next month by voluntary assisted suicide.

dutchreview.com

Ter Beek spent two-and-a-half years waiting for conditional approval for her assisted suicide.

Nothing rushed about the process.

Ter Beek’s decision has made world news since an article from The Free Press was released earlier this month.

That, The Free Press, article is the same article that Farb's article quoted and many other far right publications have quoted it as well. This was Ter Beek's reponse to that The Free Press article that Farb's article quoted.

Ter Beek, who was interviewed extensively in the article, blasted the author on X (formerly Twitter) after publication, claiming the journalist misrepresented the truth and omitted parts of her interview.

“He rushed my story, took my words out of context, I don’t even have borderline personality disorder,”

Only the writer of The Free Press has falsely claimed that Ter Beek's condition is treatable. Ter Beek and the Netherlands healthcare system say otherwise.

Every article I could find that falsely says Ter Beek's condition was treatable relies on that false claim made in The Free Press article, the very same article that Ter Beek says misrepresented the truth, in other words the author lied in that article.

This is the criteria in the Netherlands for euthanasia:

Criteria for Euthanasia in the Netherlands​

The statutory due care criteria say that the physician must:

• be satisfied that the patient’s request is voluntary and well-considered;
• be satisfied that the patient’s suffering is unbearable, with no prospect of improvement;
• have informed the patient about their situation and prognosis;
• have come to the conclusion, together with the patient, that there is no reasonable alternative in the patient’s situation;
• have consulted at least one other, independent physician, who must see the patient and give a written opinion on whether the due care criteria set out above have been fulfilled;
• have exercised due medical care and attention in terminating the patient’s life or assisting in the patient’s suicide.

Source: Regional Euthanasia Review Committees

There is no fast track slippery slope of just one doctor saying "the only option is to kill yourself" occurring in the Netherlands and they are doing a significantly better job of preventing suicides than the US states is.


Like I keep saying and will keep proving, they always have to intentionally misrepresent the truth when making their arguments, because the actual truth does not support the arguments they make. The truth does not support the things they want people to believe and agree to.

Do you think the poor and homeless should also have that option available to them?

Another dishonestly framed and unfounded question. Be aware that when anyone asks an all or nothing, black and white question about a very nuanced topic, they are trying to set a rhetorical trap. They are not genuinely asking a question to find out what others think.

Euthanasia regulations and procedures do not allow anyone to be assisted in taking their lives just because they are poor or homeless. If a poor or homeless person is dealing with something, other than just being poor or homeless, then they should have the same options as those who are not poor or homeless have.

The people arguing against euthanasia are far more likely to treat the poor and homeless with less regard and less humanity than the people who support euthanasia. The questioner framed the question the way they did to try to get an answer that they could use to falsely accuse the answerer of not caring about the poor and homeless.

Every accusation from any person not operating in good faith is a confession. Never ever forget that, not even for one second.

 

[cuddlemonkey]

How often does that happen? Especially now in todays world with cameras, DNA, ect...? But, to satisfy your itch, if it were to happen then that is a mistake but to that is not a reason to stop capital punishment in my opinion. Just as I can agree to allow the abortion of a rape or incest child.
Now, since you support abortion, articulate your stance why you are against capital punishment but not abortion?

My stance is predicated on fetuses and people being vastly different. I can make an anti-capital punishment argument without discussing the sanctity of life or protecting the innocent.

 

[Huntn]

I am for capital punishment in theory but not in practice due to the fact that we know innocent people have been executed by the state.

And I can't really think of a much worse crime than for the state to take the life of an innocent person.. at least if they're in prison for life there's still an opportunity to correct it.

This is primarily why I turned against Capitol punishment, a flawed Justice system. I can believe that some truly heinous people deserve death, but the bar would have to above “reasonable doubt” to certainty.

As far as euthanasia, I support voluntary suicide after a high bar as been met, but for involuntary euthanasia, I tend to resist the idea, maybe on a case by case basis, with an extremely high bar. I know of a person who has been in a coma for almost 4 decades, in a vegative state, categorized as brain dead, they pulled the plug, but the person kept breathing. Arguably this person has zero quality of life. Would’nt it be better to “help them” move on? And I don’t like to inject money into the discussion, but who is paying? Not the parents. If you have a limited pool of funds to work with, wouldn’t it be better to devote these funds to better cases where there is a semblance of quality of life?

 

[DaveXA]

Man I'm for all this on paper, but it wouldn't take much for it to go off the rails, and become dystopian society running man levels of bad real quick.

Just starting to read this thread, but this is precisely why I would oppose it. Unless it's in a hospice care setting and a service was offered in limited circumstances, I would be opposed to this. Just too many things can go wrong and people make mistakes in judgement all too often and end up regretting the choices they made, not only for themselves, but their families as well. We've seen what happens when tyrannical leaders use disabilities and mental illness as a justification for killing them.

And yeah, being deaf, I'm "disabled" and I'm just not comfortable with the idea of allowing the state to get into the business of killing people. And allowing it? It's going to happen where the courts will have to hash out stuff like this in private sector settings, and it will inevitably become a state problem anyway.