Critical race theory (6 Viewers)

[DaveXA]

Frankly, I'm completely ignorant when it comes to the Critical Race Theory curriculum. What is it, where does it come from, and is it legitimate? Has anyone here read it and maybe give a quick summary?

If this has been covered in another thread, then I missed it.

 

[samiam5211]

It does sound insane but yes, that is exactly what I believe. Although I don't think 'rapey' and 'violent' was the goal, just a by product of removing fathers from the home and leaving young men to be raised by culture.

So what was the problem before the welfare state?

When have black people had true equality of opportunity in the US when compared to white people?

 

[coldseat]

It does sound insane but yes, that is exactly what I believe. Although I don't think 'rapey' and 'violent' was the goal, just a by product of removing fathers from the home and leaving young men to be raised by culture.

So let me get this straight, you believe that "the government" had all these nefarious plans to destroy minority families by removing fathers from the home through welfare programs, thus making people more dependent on the state. But at the same time you don't believe in racism, systemic racism or white supremacy are a thing or even exist to the point where it cause problems for minorities?

Pray tell, why do you think "the government" did all of that to minorities (specifically black minorities)? Just so "Democrats" could get more votes and have a committed voter base? Have Republicans not been around the last 80 years to stop any of that?

You really have to have a very selective and winding view of history to arrive at what you believe. You have to ignore a lot of inconvenient facts, but I guess that's how conspiracy theories work. The grain of truth in your conspiracy theory is that there were indeed nefarious plans all throughout different levels of government to hurt minorities. It just isn't the programs you claim or for the reasons that you think.

 

[Farb]

So what was the problem before the welfare state?

When have black people had true equality of opportunity in the US when compared to white people?

Are you saying they currently don't because that is just false. Obviously, jim crow didn't help the black family but to put a binary glass to it is not really accurate either. Segregation and jim crow was not a good thing. Neither is the current movement to go back to those, just as a different skin colors.

Can you show me what area of life improved after the creation of the welfare state? I don't just mean black people, you can use any subset you would like.

I am not just railing against all welfare policies. Obviously there is a time and a place for them. Some people actually need a helping a hand to get back on their feet (still not sure the state is the best to offer that hand). When you begin rewarding people for bad decisions and lack of self accountability then you create a welfare state.

 

[coldseat]

Are you saying they currently don't because that is just false. Obviously, jim crow didn't help the black family but to put a binary glass to it is not really accurate either. Segregation and jim crow was not a good thing. Neither is the current movement to go back to those, just as a different skin colors.

Can you show me what area of life improved after the creation of the welfare state? I don't just mean black people, you can use any subset you would like.

I am not just railing against all welfare policies. Obviously there is a time and a place for them. Some people actually need a helping a hand to get back on their feet (still not sure the state is the best to offer that hand). When you begin rewarding people for bad decisions and lack of self accountability then you create a welfare state.

Poverty Rates Reached Record Low in 2018​

Measured with the SPM, the poverty rates both for all ages and for children reached record lows in 2018. Long term these improvements were largely due to the growing effectiveness of economic security programs. The poverty-reducing importance of government programs has grown, while other forces — including the increasingly unequal private economy — have on balance done little to reduce poverty. Before taking government benefits and tax policies into account, poverty has improved only modestly over the past five decades, falling from 27.0 percent to 25.4 percent between 1967 and 2017. But after accounting for these benefits and taxes, the poverty rate fell from 26.0 percent in 1967 to 14.4 percent in 2017. The latest Census data that use new processing methods show that poverty further declined from 2017 to 2018. (See Figure 3.)

Similarly, child poverty fell to a record low in 2018 because of the growing effectiveness of economic security programs. The data show that the near-halving of the child poverty rate since the late 1960s is largely attributable to the creation or expansion of various economic security programs, particularly SNAP and two major refundable tax credits. When poverty is measured without counting government assistance, child poverty has improved only modestly over the past five decades, falling from 28.3 percent to 25.2 percent between 1967 and 2017. But once these benefits are taken into account, a large decline in child poverty is evident. (See Figure 4.)

https://www.cbpp.org/research/poverty-and-inequality/economic-security-programs-cut-poverty-nearly-in-half-over-last-50

 

[samiam5211]

Are you saying they currently don't because that is just false. Obviously, jim crow didn't help the black family but to put a binary glass to it is not really accurate either. Segregation and jim crow was not a good thing. Neither is the current movement to go back to those, just as a different skin colors.

Can you show me what area of life improved after the creation of the welfare state? I don't just mean black people, you can use any subset you would like.

I am not just railing against all welfare policies. Obviously there is a time and a place for them. Some people actually need a helping a hand to get back on their feet (still not sure the state is the best to offer that hand). When you begin rewarding people for bad decisions and lack of self accountability then you create a welfare state.

When did black people start to have equality of opportunity with white people in the US?

 

[brandon]

It stands to reason that if you believe the government put a welfare state in place that effectively destroyed black families and not white families, then you have admitted you believe in systemic racism.

You are literally saying that the “system” (the government) put policies in place to negatively affect black people more than white people.

That’s literally systemic racism.

 

[J-DONK]

It stands to reason that if you believe the government put a welfare state in place that effectively destroyed black families and not white families, then you have admitted you believe in systemic racism.

You are literally saying that the “system” (the government) put policies in place to negatively affect black people more than white people.

That’s literally systemic racism.

TBH, some of what he is espousing you would hear at a BLM protest. The difference is those people make a more logical conclusion on how to fix income inequality. Farb is almost there.

 

[Farb]

When did black people start to have equality of opportunity with white people in the US?

I guess since you are determined to have this about black people we can. They do now and have for several generations. I lived through the 80s and the 90s. They actually did happen. How long must society continued to ignore bad personal/cultural decisions and blame it on the past? The left is encapsulated by the bigotry of low expectations. Of course they will deny it and spin the racism around on the other side but that does not make it any less true.
Do all white people have the same opportunity as each other? If so, then you might have something but opportunity is available if you work to find it. That is the problem with equity. The left wants the same finishing point for everyone in the race and that goes against human nature.

 

[Farb]

https://www.cbpp.org/research/poverty-and-inequality/economic-security-programs-cut-poverty-nearly-in-half-over-last-50

Wait, you mean if the more money the government gives out to people the more the people have money? Is that not evident?

 

[Farb]

TBH, some of what he is espousing you would hear at a BLM protest. The difference is those people make a more logical conclusion on how to fix income inequality. Farb is almost there.

Do we completely ignore the fact that I said this was not just a black problem but a everybody problem? The democrats don't care what color you are (except for propaganda terms) as long you want that 'free' money and will vote for those that offer you the free money. At this point, the Dems are just flat out buying votes. Remember the 2K in the GA runoff?

 

[samiam5211]

I guess since you are determined to have this about black people we can. They do now and have for several generations. I lived through the 80s and the 90s. They actually did happen. How long must society continued to ignore bad personal/cultural decisions and blame it on the past? The left is encapsulated by the bigotry of low expectations. Of course they will deny it and spin the racism around on the other side but that does not make it any less true.
Do all white people have the same opportunity as each other? If so, then you might have something but opportunity is available if you work to find it. That is the problem with equity. The left wants the same finishing point for everyone in the race and that goes against human nature.

So the oppressive welfare state wasn't trying to break up black families in the 80s and 90s?

If they had equality of opportunity, why didn't they have equality of outcomes with white people?

 

[JRad]

Remember the 2K in the GA runoff?

I do remember the 2k - it was Trump who wanted that. The Dems you're referring to just ran off it from there.

 

[Lapaz]

When did black people start to have equality of opportunity with white people in the US?

Affirmative action still exists to help minorities even if they aren't the most qualified, and there is social pressure to hire more minorities for perceived fairness. Arguably that disadvantages white people. There are also programs like contract set asides, and enterprise zones that disproportionately aid minorities. It's not uncommon for blacks and hispanics to be sought out by white people as partners to take advantage of these programs. Whether racist counter forces offset these is hard to assess, so it's mostly supposition that that is the current reason for inequality. Financial institutions favor lower risk and high reward investments, and that may inherently favor whites, but whatever the reason, one can't ignore that government policies favor minorities. So if government policies already favor minorities, then is the solution to go even further with those policies?

 

[samiam5211]

Affirmative action still exists to help minorities even if they aren't the most qualified, and there is social pressure to hire more minorities for perceived fairness. Arguably that disadvantages white people. There are also programs like contract set asides, and enterprise zones that disproportionately aid minorities. It's not uncommon for blacks and hispanics to be sought out by white people as partners to take advantage of these programs. Whether racist counter forces offset these is hard to assess, so it's mostly supposition that that is the current reason for inequality. Financial institutions favor lower risk and high reward investments, and that may inherently favor whites, but whatever the reason, one can't ignore that government policies favor minorities. So if government policies already favor minorities, then is the solution to go even further with those policies?

I am just trying to get us to acknowledge the same problem.

If someone thinks that we have equality of opportunity for all races in the US, then there isn't any point in trying to discuss solutions to a problem they don't think exists.

I would like to find out from people who do think we have equality of opportunity, what they think is the reason we have such disparate outcomes. It is hard for me to think of any reason other than systemic racism or that some races just don't do as well as others. If someone denies the existence or impact of systemic racism, they are going to have an uphill battle convincing me that they are not a racist.

 

[coldseat]

Wait, you mean if the more money the government gives out to people the more the people have money? Is that not evident?

You asked:

Can you show me what area of life improved after the creation of the welfare state? I don't just mean black people, you can use any subset you would like.

By any objective measure, the poverty rate falling from 33% to 16% because of welfare is the definition of "an area of life improving". Would we be better as a country with a 33% poverty rate?

 

[MT15]

Do all white people have the same opportunity as each other? If so, then you might have something but opportunity is available if you work to find it. That is the problem with equity. The left wants the same finishing point for everyone in the race and that goes against human nature.

do you see where you switched from “same opportunity” to “same finishing point”? They’re not the same thing, but right wingers love to accuse people who want more equitable opportunities of wanting the same outcomes.

 

[samiam5211]

do you see where you switched from “same opportunity” to “same finishing point”? They’re not the same thing, but right wingers love to accuse people who want more equitable opportunities of wanting the same outcomes.

Yea, also they love to talk about individual outcomes to show everyone has a chance.

The mean outcomes of each group should be similar though. If they are not, something is causing it.

 

[Lapaz]

I am just trying to get us to acknowledge the same problem.

If someone thinks that we have equality of opportunity for all races in the US, then there isn't any point in trying to discuss solutions to a problem they don't think exists.

I would like to find out from people who do think we have equality of opportunity, what they think is the reason we have such disparate outcomes. It is hard for me to think of any reason other than systemic racism or that some races just don't do as well as others. If someone denies the existence or impact of systemic racism, they are going to have an uphill battle convincing me that they are not a racist.

What is the systemic racism? The only one that I'm aware of that exists today is related to treatment of cocaine vs crack, but I think there have been steps to mitigate that.