Canada effectively bans assault weapons after NS shooting (1 Viewer)

[Heathen]

Canada bans assault weapons after mass shooting in Nova Scotia

Canada bans assault weapons after mass shooting in Nova Scotia

abcnews.go.com

Pretty big news..

That is to say they will ban weapons they seem as such.

What are your thoughts?

 

[samiam5211]

You can nitpick that one video to death, but there's lots of other cases where AR-15s stopped home invasions.
Who the heck are you or anybody else to tell others what firearm they have to use to defend their home?

Oklahoma man killed three teen home intruders using AR-15 rifle

A 23-year-old Oklahoma man used a semiautomatic AR-15 rifle to shoot and kill three intruders who broke into his home Monday afternoon in a suburb of Tulsa.

www.nbcnews.com

Pregnant Florida woman uses AR-15 to fatally shoot armed intruder

Two armed men broke into the house and pistol whipped husband, before wife pulled out their legally possessed weapon and opened fire.

www.nbcnews.com

Deadly invasion

Two men were arrested following the shoot-out in southern Marion County.

www.ocala.com

Did any of those situations require an AR-15?

I mean, if she had put some c4 in her yard and blown up the intruders before they even got to her door, C4 would have stopped the home invasion.

 

[Archies Ghost]

I see alot of articles like this that come to a conclusion, but don't really follow what their sources are saying. Per the article's sources:

The Box O' Truth #12 - Insulated Walls

Since we started this project, many people have asked, "Why don't you fill the walls with insulation before you shoot them? Maybe it would make a difference." Well, the standard answer is, "Interior walls, at least here in Texas, are not insulated. Only exterior walls are insulated." But…..who...

www.theboxotruth.com

His targets are so small he can't really tell how far the 556 is penetrating, only that it deviates off course, which in their words, "an important consideration if others are in your home."



Disappointingly, they tested shotguns with slugs, the worst choice of home defense ammo for a shotgun. Shot is far superior and easier to hit with.

.223 Drywall Penetration: Results

how-i-did-it.org

They're testing 223 ammo that doesn't meet the FBI's recommendation for personal defense stopping power.

Per the heavier 223s they fired:



Further on shotguns:



It is commonly known 00 buckshot over penetrates. A home defense shotgun user is recommended to use #4 shot or lighter, unless you have distance or hard barriers from loved ones or neighbors. It's rather amateur to say, "buckshot is supposed to limit penetration." Clearly in the name it's the second to highest powered shot intended for killing medium to large game.

Is an AR-15 Appropriate for Home Defense? Part One: Penetration Issues | OutdoorHub

Tom McHale examines whether AR-15-type firearms are suited to home defense, beginning with a bit of "backyard ballistics."

www.outdoorhub.com

The common theme in these "they don't over penetrate" articles is that the rounds get knocked off course. It's clear by their testing 223 and 556 over penetrate, but worse they can veer off in unintended directions.

The other sources were dead links or did not mention penetration.

Here's a great video from Paul Harrell discussing penetration. Paul is a firearms expert with 20 years in the military, and most notably a Marine Corp combat marksmanship instructor. He just lays out the info and doesn't fluff the details. You can see he easily blitzes 2 interior and 1 exterior walls with 223. Some great info all around starting at 7:26 on.

It is a pretty simple physics problem.

Mass times velocity. The mass of the average pistol round is much greater than a .223 rifle round. Velocity is greatly reduced upon first impact for any round. The heavier round stays straighter and is less deformed. The light round-is more likely to break up.

You, for rather obvious political reasons, were pretending that a .223 is equivalent to firing a .50 bmg.

You have acknowledged that isn’t the case and that the .223 is similar in penetration to other common home defense firearm calibers.

And I disagree a bit about a slug for home defense. While 00 buck is probably the best round to clear a crowded school hallway, it becomes a poorer choice in a home invasion when the aggressor is near or in contact with a loved one.

 

[Heathen]

We're essentially arguing which weapon would be 'more effective', for whatever vague definition that upholds, in a home defense situation, not which one would or wouldn't effectively deal with an intruder if fired (they all would).

 

[The moose]

We're essentially arguing which weapon would be 'more effective', for whatever vague definition that upholds, in a home defense situation, not which one would or wouldn't effectively deal with an intruder if fired (they all would).

Yep this is where things go in a argument about this every time.

It should go to why are you being targeted and what you can do to stop it. Or if you spent that couple of grand on other things besides guns would that make you more safe like lights and other security options. Or heck a better zip code.

But this is Mercia damn it. We are gonna have military weapons to defend our bad apartment rather than move to a safer one or make it more secure.

Like that video posted when a guy a buck twenty soaking wet can kick your door open with one kick you need a dead bolt not an ar15.

So want to guess the idiot without a deadbolt had a gun safe to keep it safe from the public? I am more than sure he did not.

 

[samiam5211]

I guns don’t kill people, then they don’t save people either.

Gun nuts can’t have it both ways.

 

[Joe Okc]

I guns don’t kill people, then they don’t save people either.

Gun nuts can’t have it both ways.

actually, in all the case dads cited, guns saved the defender from the attackers.

as the same in this one guns saved innocent people....

Armed bystanders kill shooter at Oklahoma City restaurant

Armed bystanders gunned down a shooter Thursday at an Oklahoma City restaurant, killing him, police said.

www.cnn.com

and if it wasn;t for guns, you would be speaking German and most likely living in a concentration camp...

 

[JRad]

Personally, I don't care what you own as long as you have it legally and the vetting process is appropriate. They are deadly weapons and should be treated as such. It helps to think of those bigger firearms as collectibles when you're asking who really "needs" them. I realize not everyone agrees with me there, and that's fine.

What does perplex me is this "I always have to be armed" attitude. The two I have are generally up high and unloaded. Never in my almost 37 years have I ever said "wow I wish I had one of my guns on me for that", and I haven't always lived in the best places.

I'm not asking to judge or as a got ya, but I'm genuinely curious how often anyone has had a first hand experience like that?

 

[samiam5211]

actually, in all the case dads cited, guns saved the defender from the attackers.

as the same in this one guns saved innocent people....

Armed bystanders kill shooter at Oklahoma City restaurant

Armed bystanders gunned down a shooter Thursday at an Oklahoma City restaurant, killing him, police said.

www.cnn.com

and if it wasn;t for guns, you would be speaking German and most likely living in a concentration camp...

So then you also agree that if someone dies from a gun shot would that the gun killed them?

If “Guns don’t kill people, people kill people.” Is true, then “Guns don’t save people, people save people.“ must also be true.

 

[NoPartyMike]

It is a pretty simple physics problem. Mass times velocity. The mass of the average pistol round is much greater than a .223 rifle round. Velocity is greatly reduced upon first impact for any round. The heavier round stays straighter and is less deformed. The light round-is more likely to break up.

My argument was that a 223 is not a safe round for over penetration in close quarters home defense situation. All of the tests show a 223 will clear 4 walls with deadly force, just at random directions after first strike. All shooters need to know what is behind their target and what they may hit after or with a miss, and I'm not confident a veering round helps that scenario as compared to a straight one.

You, for rather obvious political reasons, were pretending that a .223 is equivalent to firing a .50 bmg.

As stated above a greater potential of collateral damage is still evident. I didn't mention anything higher than 556 and wasn't comparing pistols, just over pen of 223 rifles in a home defense scenario. However, Rifle velocity and energy is much higher than a pistol even though a 9mm has higher mass. At 50 yards a rifled 223 is traveling at a velocity of 2,992 with 1,093 energy. At 50 yards a pistoled 9mm is traveling at a velocity of 1,027 with 290 energy.

Further, I support 2A and I don't support either party or their agenda on a blanket basis. Accurate statistics are hard to find, but most home defense scenarios end in 2 rounds fired from the homeowner, with the next majority ending in 3 rounds fired. Considering the risk of collateral damage and nuts going crazy at children's schools, lawful gun ownership purposes like home defense will be satisfied with less than "assault weapons." I just see society trending in that direction realistically. I'm foremost for personal freedom, but I have a 4yo and 1yo and wouldn't shed a tear to see a bit less killing spree power roaming the streets or my neighbors defending their homes like Rambo.

And I disagree a bit about a slug for home defense. While 00 buck is probably the best round to clear a crowded school hallway, it becomes a poorer choice in a home invasion when the aggressor is near or in contact with a loved one.

As regards to your hostage situation with 00 buck, yes, but consider at 12ft the average spread is only 4 inches.

Anyways, it's been good debating with you. Have a good rest of your day.

 

[NoPartyMike]

and if it wasn;t for guns, you would be speaking German and most likely living in a concentration camp...

Respectfully, no WW2 battles were fought in the continental US or by armed citizens, so 2A didn't really have a bearing on us speaking German.

 

[Surviving Saint]

I see alot of articles like this that come to a conclusion, but don't really follow what their sources are saying. Per the article's sources:

The Box O' Truth #12 - Insulated Walls

Since we started this project, many people have asked, "Why don't you fill the walls with insulation before you shoot them? Maybe it would make a difference." Well, the standard answer is, "Interior walls, at least here in Texas, are not insulated. Only exterior walls are insulated." But…..who...

www.theboxotruth.com

His targets are so small he can't really tell how far the 556 is penetrating, only that it deviates off course, which in their words, "an important consideration if others are in your home."



Disappointingly, they tested shotguns with slugs, the worst choice of home defense ammo for a shotgun. Shot is far superior and easier to hit with.

.223 Drywall Penetration: Results

how-i-did-it.org

They're testing 223 ammo that doesn't meet the FBI's recommendation for personal defense stopping power.

Per the heavier 223s they fired:



Further on shotguns:



It is commonly known 00 buckshot over penetrates. A home defense shotgun user is recommended to use #4 shot or lighter, unless you have distance or hard barriers from loved ones or neighbors. It's rather amateur to say, "buckshot is supposed to limit penetration." Clearly in the name it's the second to highest powered shot intended for killing medium to large game.

Is an AR-15 Appropriate for Home Defense? Part One: Penetration Issues | OutdoorHub

Tom McHale examines whether AR-15-type firearms are suited to home defense, beginning with a bit of "backyard ballistics."

www.outdoorhub.com

The common theme in these "they don't over penetrate" articles is that the rounds get knocked off course. It's clear by their testing 223 and 556 over penetrate, but worse they can veer off in unintended directions.

The other sources were dead links or did not mention penetration.

Here's a great video from Paul Harrell discussing penetration. Paul is a firearms expert with 20 years in the military, and most notably a Marine Corp combat marksmanship instructor. He just lays out the info and doesn't fluff the details. You can see he easily blitzes 2 interior and 1 exterior walls with 223. Some great info all around starting at 7:26 on.

The only thing I got out of all that is a bad guy shouldn't use sheet rock as body armor.

 

[Dadsdream]

My argument was that a 223 is not a safe round for over penetration in close quarters home defense situation. All of the tests show a 223 will clear 4 walls with deadly force, just at random directions after first strike. All shooters need to know what is behind their target and what they may hit after or with a miss, and I'm not confident a veering round helps that scenario as compared to a straight one.

As stated above a greater potential of collateral damage is still evident. I didn't mention anything higher than 556 and wasn't comparing pistols, just over pen of 223 rifles in a home defense scenario. However, Rifle velocity and energy is much higher than a pistol even though a 9mm has higher mass. At 50 yards a rifled 223 is traveling at a velocity of 2,992 with 1,093 energy. At 50 yards a pistoled 9mm is traveling at a velocity of 1,027 with 290 energy.

Further, I support 2A and I don't support either party or their agenda on a blanket basis. Accurate statistics are hard to find, but most home defense scenarios end in 2 rounds fired from the homeowner, with the next majority ending in 3 rounds fired. Considering the risk of collateral damage and nuts going crazy at children's schools, lawful gun ownership purposes like home defense will be satisfied with less than "assault weapons." I just see society trending in that direction realistically. I'm foremost for personal freedom, but I have a 4yo and 1yo and wouldn't shed a tear to see a bit less killing spree power roaming the streets or my neighbors defending their home like Rambo.

As regards to your hostage situation with 00 buck, yes, but consider at 12ft the average spread is only 4 inches.

Anyways, it's been good debating with you. Have a good rest of your day.

Number of times I've fired a pump shotgun - 1 time, for familiarization in Marine Corps boot camp, 1975.
Number of times I've fired a 5.56 mm M-16A1 or M-16A2 - Thousands upon thousands, qualified senior trainer, master assessor and range control NCO, US Army.

With a pump shotgun, I'm more of a danger to myself than an intruder.
With AR-15, the weapon is an extension of my body. I don't even have to think to use it effectively.

No, sadly, I don't own one. It's a part of me that's slowly fading away, like the old soldier MacArthur mentioned in his farewell speech.

But I do have a .22 LR Glenfield semi-automatic with a 20-round tube magazine.

 

[SFIDC3]

and if it wasn;t for guns, you would be speaking German and most likely living in a concentration camp...

Is this a serious statement? I hope not....if it wasn't for guns (meaning they didn't exist) you really think the Germans could take us? And you call yourself a Patriot? C'mon man!!!!!!

 

[Joe Okc]

Personally, I don't care what you own as long as you have it legally and the vetting process is appropriate. They are deadly weapons and should be treated as such. It helps to think of those bigger firearms as collectibles when you're asking who really "needs" them. I realize not everyone agrees with me there, and that's fine.

What does perplex me is this "I always have to be armed" attitude. The two I have are generally up high and unloaded. Never in my almost 37 years have I ever said "wow I wish I had one of my guns on me for that", and I haven't always lived in the best places.

I'm not asking to judge or as a got ya, but I'm genuinely curious how often anyone has had a first hand experience like that?

Your view on life at 37 and 57 will be too different things...

Respectfully, no WW2 battles were fought in the continental US or by armed citizens, so 2A didn't really have a bearing on us speaking German.

You can thank a million dead Russians and Stalingrad for that one.

Is this a serious statement? I hope not....if it wasn't for guns (meaning they didn't exist) you really think the Germans could take us? And you call yourself a Patriot? C'mon man!!!!!!

What was the saying from Yamato, if we have to invade America there will be a gun behind every blade of grass.

 

[Joe Okc]

So then you also agree that if someone dies from a gun shot would that the gun killed them?

If “Guns don’t kill people, people kill people.” Is true, then “Guns don’t save people, people save people.“ must also be true.

Right.. People with guns saved other people... as in the case I linked of the OKC restaurant and also the Texas Church shooter was taken out by a good guy with a gun that saved more people.

so if we are doing this WWII thing... Young men with guns(our Boys) stopped those people (The Nazi's) that took guns away from others in their country... (the Jews)...

 

[Joe Okc]

So Joe back to the unanswered question.

Why does your right to own a military style weapon trump the life liberty and the good old happiness thing?

No ones Life Liberty and good old happiness is at risk because I own an ar15? Because you are happy, does that mean that I should not own one?

Again. It is for Multiple attackers... It may not be the weapon of choice in the home, but it sure is is you have a large property.

The real question is this: Which is better, the AR15 or the AK47?

 

[Surviving Saint]

The real question is this: Which is better, the AR15 or the AK47?

The one you are more proficient at.

A belt fed M60 would work also.

 

[The moose]

No ones Life Liberty and good old happiness is at risk because I own an ar15? Because you are happy, does that mean that I should not own one?

Again. It is for Multiple attackers... It may not be the weapon of choice in the home, but it sure is is you have a large property.

The real question is this: Which is better, the AR15 or the AK47?

Scared school children and their parents most definitely don't share your opinion. The easy supply of ar15s and the like make them live in fear and certainly effect the whole happiness bit.

And yes you can protect your house a number of ways that don't involve an ar15.

Hell full sized dogs work exceptionally well. Combine said dog as an early warning devise and good old 12 gauge and you can stop anything.

But then again you are scared of rappers and video gammer's coming for ya. I get your fear. Rappers are effecting your happiness also but your odds are not near that of another mass shooting at a school or church.