All Things LGBTQ+ (2 Viewers)

[Farb]

Didn't really see a place for this so I thought I would start a thread about all things LGBTQ since this is a pretty hot topic in our culture right now

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/17/sup...y-that-refuses-to-work-with-lgbt-couples.html

• The Supreme Court on Thursday delivered a unanimous defeat to LGBT couples in a high-profile case over whether Philadelphia could refuse to contract with a Roman Catholic adoption agency that says its religious beliefs prevent it from working with same-sex foster parents.
• Chief Justice John Roberts wrote in an opinion for a majority of the court that Philadelphia violated the First Amendment by refusing to contract with Catholic Social Services once it learned that the organization would not certify same-sex couples for adoption.

I will admit, I was hopeful for this decision by the SCOTUS but I was surprised by the unanimous decision.

While I don't think there is anything wrong, per se, with same sex couples adopting and raising children (I actually think it is a good thing as it not an abortion) but I also did not want to see the state force a religious institution to bend to a societal norm.

 

[SystemShock]

What I mean is that you keep saying things like "look the part" and "resemble a person of another gender", which implies dressing up to be someone they aren't. That's not the case at all.

I keep saying that because the defining trait of a male or female of our species is whether they are born with male or female reproductive organs, regardless of how they look, what clothes/makeup they wear, their voice range, mannerisms, boobs size, etc.

I disagree. Insulin is produced naturally by (most) human bodies. Iron is a natural substance. Humans with all sorts of physical appearances exist naturally. Seeking medical treatment to acquire the things your body should have naturally- but for some reason doesn't- is natural and necessary.

Insulin is produced naturally by the human body. However, nature doesn't cultivate insulin in a lab, and syringes don't grow on trees. Same with iron supplements; iron pills don't grow on trees, they come out of assembly lines in which they are mixed and pressed by machines, which aren't natural either.

We humans have learned to manipulate natural elements to create incredible things, but everything we create out of manipulating natural elements is by definition not natural.

 

[SamAndreas]

Instead of just telling me I posted sheet, why don't you tell me why do you think I posted sheet?

I'll take you at your prima facie word to answer this. Because it creates wonderful Systematic Shock.


A fun, usually conservative, form of combative razzledazzle humor otherwise know as "get your goat." Or "got your goat" when one is up against an accomplished prized goatherd.

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

I keep saying that because the defining trait of a male or female of our species is whether they are born with male or female reproductive organs, regardless of how they look, what clothes/makeup they wear, their voice range, mannerisms, boobs size, etc.

Yes, but you can be conceived with an X-Y chromosome combination and still be born presenting as female. So while you look to be female you are actually male. It's rare but it happens. There's an actress that has that "problem". I forget her name.

Edited to add: Jamie Curtis

 

[SystemShock]

People who use these incidents to argue against the entire movement for trans equality are paradoxically only ensuring that people who want to carve out some sort of equality will get more strident in response.

"Some sort of equality"...

One of my favorite youtube channels is Rationality Rules, created by Stephen Woodford, one of the young voices of atheism. Before the pandemic, because of his rise in the atheist community, he was invited to participate in the annual event the Atheist Community of Austin (or ACA, well known among atheists and apologists alike because of Matt Dillahunty, one of the so-called 4 horsemen of the new atheism - which isn't new, but I digress). before he attended, he posted a video about transgender athletes, in which he presented a very scientific case against allowing transgender women athletes participating in women sports.

Once the ACA learned of the video, he was immediately shun from the ACA, with the ACA disavowing having to do anything with him, and label him transphobic. That open the floodgates of transphobia accusations and even threats of physical harm.

So, there may be some people who use one instance to argue against and entire movement - whatever this "movement" encompasses - but there are people who will accept nothing but full compliance and acceptance to their "movement".

 

[SystemShock]

I'll take you at your prima facie word to answer this. Because it creates wonderful Systematic Shock.


A fun, usually conservative, form of combative razzledazzle humor otherwise know as "get your goat." Or "got your goat" when one is up against an accomplished prized goatherd.

So, no actual counter argument. Thank you for "participating".

 

[SystemShock]

Yes, but you can be conceived with an X-Y chromosome combination and still be born presenting as female. So while you look to be female you are actually male. It's rare but it happens. There's an actress that has that "problem". I forget her name.

Edited to add: Jamie Curtis

Jamie Lee Curtis: Male and Female?

Rumor: Actress Jamie Lee Curtis was born with both male and female sex organs.

www.snopes.com

Sure, some people are born intersex/hermaphrodite/whatever you want to call them. But like you say, it is rare.

 

[SamAndreas]

So, no actual counter argument. Thank you for "participating".

I didn't know you had an argument which needed a counter.

Your argument needs more thrust, all it does is rumble and smoke.

We're in year "many" when it comes to this issue as it's playing out around here. It's basically fully resolved. 10% of the Sheriff's deputies, and about 20% of the medical clinic staff are transgender, and have been at those kinds of levels in those departments for more than a decade.

You've lost the argument when they've got a solid foothold in the Sheriffs department. We've grown accustom to them after having lived amoung them for what is becoming 30 years, and generally we find we like having them live here fine.

Long since ago have passed conversations about them like you're trying to introduce here. These kids, and some much older than kids anymore, have earned the backing of the community here, and this community is 60% Republican, only 40% liberal.

These "kids" have proven themselves in community service and every other aspect of life here. They're one's of us now, and that's a done deal in Tom McClintock's conservative congressional district.

So your providence here is something which is ending. Hello new world.

 

[cuddlemonkey]

I keep saying that because the defining trait of a male or female of our species is whether they are born with male or female reproductive organs, regardless of how they look, what clothes/makeup they wear, their voice range, mannerisms, boobs size, etc.

The discussion is gender, not sex. That said, you acknowledge that it's possible to be intersex/have ambiguous genitalia, which negates the notion that those genitals are a defining trait. The rarity with which it happens does not make it any less real.

Insulin is produced naturally by the human body. However, nature doesn't cultivate insulin in a lab, and syringes don't grow on trees. Same with iron supplements; iron pills don't grow on trees, they come out of assembly lines in which they are mixed and pressed by machines, which aren't natural either.

We humans have learned to manipulate natural elements to create incredible things, but everything we create out of manipulating natural elements is by definition not natural.

To be honest, I'm not even sure why the designation is necessary, especially with the connotation carried by the term "unnatural." I think we can both agree that natural is not always better.

 

[coldseat]

I believe that the trans movement (which i support wholeheartedly) would be best served if we accepted the need to pump the breaks with respect to competitive sports.

It is going to cause a loss of momentum with the public, and transphobic trolls will take advantage of it to argue against the trans movement as a whole.

I actually agree with this. I don't really keep up with this issue other than what's posted in this thread, but I did read that WP article and it does appear pretty obvious that in the Lia Thomas case there is a competitive disadvantage to the non-trans woman she is competing against. I don't know that they've quite found the balance between transitioning, hormones and competitive advantage yet. I believe that with time, we'll mostly be able to figure out where that line lies. Not really knowing the specifics of the science, it seems anecdotally that the younger the trans athlete starts taking hormone blockers and starts transitioning, the less of an issue this is. But that may have other health effects, I don't really know. I do believe we need to rely more on the science, while also not denigrating or ostracizing trans woman and working with them as a community.

 

[SystemShock]

I didn't know you had an argument which needed a counter.

Your argument needs more thrust, all it does is rumble and smoke.

We're in year "many" when it comes to this issue as it's playing out around here. It's basically fully resolved. 10% of the Sheriff's deputies, and about 20% of the medical clinic staff are transgender, and have been at those kinds of levels in those departments for more than a decade.

You've lost the argument when they've got a solid foothold in the Sheriffs department. We've grown accustom to them after having lived amoung them for what is becoming 30 years, and generally we find we like having them live here fine.

Long since ago have passed conversations about them like you're trying to introduce here. These kids, and some much older than kids anymore, have earned the backing of the community here, and this community is 60% Republican, only 40% liberal.

These "kids" have proven themselves in community service and every other aspect of life here. They're one's of us now, and that's a done deal in Tom McClintock's conservative congressional district.

So your providence here is something which is ending. Hello new world.

Too much written, no actual response to my statements. But whatev's.

 

[SamAndreas]

Too much written, no actual response to my statements. But whatev's.

Only two sex forms but multiple gender variants: How to explain?

Are sex and gender interchangeable terms? In classical biology, both are sometimes but not always used on an equal basis for some groups of animals. However, for our own species the Homo sapiens, they are not. A major question is why are there only two ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

7. Gender​

If sex and gender would have the very same meaning in all sexually reproducing species, there should be no need for two terms: Sex would suffice. Gender does indeed have no meaning in the few species which only produce one type of gamete, which is egg-like, thus in the few species in which no males occur. Such species have special means to maintain the diploid status of their somatic cells. Gender requires the presence of males and females. But why is there need for two terms? In non-human animal research, gender is commonly used to refer to the biological sex of the animals. Thus in classical biology, the nature of gender is not a hot topic, and hardly ever have efforts been undertaken to come up with a good definition. The opposite situation prevails in the humanities, in particular since the 1960-ties, when some sociologists and historians started raising questions about the reasons why males and females behave so differently, why specific tasks were typically attributed to females or males, and why man and woman were not always treated as equals, e.g. in receiving the same pay for the same work/job. An answer like e.g. God had a different set of tasks for man and woman in mind (see e.g. the story of creation in the Book Genesis of the Bible, or other stories in other cultures) when He created the species Homo sapiens as heterosexual as He had done before in other species; was rightly no longer accepted as a valid argument. Even to date, defining gender remains tricky.

There is no generally accepted definition of gender, because the concept itself is not static but dynamic [20]. According to Weed [21] the meaning of gender depends on who uses the word, in what context, and for what ends. A few examples of definitions as used in medicine or in the humanities, in particular in sociology are:

• • Gender: the behavioural, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with one sex (Merriam-Webster Medical dictionary)
• • Gender: is a constitutive element of social relationships based upon perceived differences between the sexes and gender is a primary way of signifying relationships of power (historian Joan Wallach Scott [22]).
• • Gender: is the range of characteristics pertaining to, and differentiating between masculinity and femininity. Depending on the context, these characteristics may include biological sex (i.e. the state of being male, female or an intersex variation which may complicate sex assignment), sex-based social structures (including gender roles and other social roles), or gender identity [23]).
• • Since 2011, the FDA [24] started using sex as the biological classification and gender as a person's self-presentation as male or female, or how a person is responded to by social institutions based on the individual's gender presentation.
• • To my knowledge, no specific definition of gender emerged from basic studies in animal physiology and development.

These definitions illustrate that a triplet of basic elements is taken into account, namely biological sex, psychological gender, and social gender role. Gender is wider than sex. To date gender is mainly used in a human sociological context, with a considerable input from feminist theory and with little reference to basic principles of fundamental biology [20,23,25]. I am primarily interested in the uncovering which principles from animal physiology and development are responsible for the difference between sex and gender, and for enabling variability in gender forms.

 

[SystemShock]

The discussion is gender, not sex. That said, you acknowledge that it's possible to be intersex/have ambiguous genitalia, which negates the notion that those genitals are a defining trait. The rarity with which it happens does not make it any less real.

The exception doesn't negate the rule, it's just an exception to it, the rule still exists.

As for this being a discussion on gender, really, what's gender anymore? It is how you feel? How you look? Looking for a definition of gender, the general theme is that gender refers to the characteristics of people that are socially constructed, such as norms, behaviors, and roles associated with the particular gender.

If you look at modern societies, is there a role, norm, behavior, that men do/have that women don't or vice versa? Honestly, I can't think of one. So, when it comes down to it...

To be honest, I'm not even sure why the designation is necessary, especially with the connotation carried by the term "unnatural." I think we can both agree that natural is not always better.

The connotation of the term "unnatural" is simply "not natural". What other connotation are you giving the word?

 

[SystemShock]

Only two sex forms but multiple gender variants: How to explain?

Are sex and gender interchangeable terms? In classical biology, both are sometimes but not always used on an equal basis for some groups of animals. However, for our own species the Homo sapiens, they are not. A major question is why are there only two ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Keep trying. but I'll tell you that your definitions do support my statement that there is a lot of "dress-up" involved in gender transitions.

 

[SamAndreas]

The exception doesn't negate the rule, it's just an exception to it, the rule still exists.

As for this being a discussion on gender, really, what's gender anymore? It is how you feel? How you look? Looking for a definition of gender, the general theme is that gender refers to the characteristics of people that are socially constructed, such as norms, behaviors, and roles associated with the particular gender.

If you look at modern societies, is there a role, norm, behavior, that men do/have that women don't or vice versa? Honestly, I can't think of one. So, when it comes down to it...


The connotation of the term "unnatural" is simply "not natural". What other connotation are you giving the word?

For someone who harps on and on about what is natural, and what is unnatural,,, have you looked at yourself in a mirror???

Since I mentioned harps:

 

[brandon]

The connotation of the term "unnatural" is simply "not natural".

Actually, that’s the denotation.

The connotation is implying that it is somehow “wrong,” along with you using words like “disorder.”

 

[Optimus Prime]

The cause of so much discrimination of any kind against any group comes down to one word

Normal

Anything that is not normal is abnormal

and anything that is abnormal is bad

and anyone who does abnormal things is also bad

I posted this in this thread last summer

And unnatural is in the same category as abnormal

And saying not natural or not normal are just facts, what’s wrong with that?

And for you and others maybe nothing but for many it’s like saying the fact that covid started in China and we saw how people took that and ran with it

Increasing racist attacks on Asians

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/02/09/attacks-asian-american-elderly-/I will admit, I didn't know anything about these these strings of attacks and the murder of elderly Asian American out west. Really disturbing. In most cases, they have caught sub human scum that have committed...

madaboutpolitics.com

 

[cuddlemonkey]

The exception doesn't negate the rule, it's just an exception to it, the rule still exists.

You are either trying to apply rules to the exceptions or you've appointed yourself the arbiter of what does and does not count as an exception.

As for this being a discussion on gender, really, what's gender anymore? It is how you feel? How you look? Looking for a definition of gender, the general theme is that gender refers to the characteristics of people that are socially constructed, such as norms, behaviors, and roles associated with the particular gender.

If you look at modern societies, is there a role, norm, behavior, that men do/have that women don't or vice versa? Honestly, I can't think of one. So, when it comes down to it...

gen·der
/ˈjendər/
Learn to pronounce
noun
noun: gender; plural noun: genders
1.
either of the two sexes (male and female), especially when considered with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones. The term is also used more broadly to denote a range of identities that do not correspond to established ideas of male and female.

The connotation of the term "unnatural" is simply "not natural". What other connotation are you giving the word?

Are you serious? You've never heard the term "unnatural" applied repeatedly to the LGBTQ+ community?

 

[Port City JJ]

Keep trying. but I'll tell you that your definitions do support my statement that there is a lot of "dress-up" involved in gender transitions.

You are being disingenuous if you are trying to say you don't understand how "unnatural" has hurtful connotations towards Trans-persons.

Or perhaps you care more about parsing definitions than the emotional trauma of trans-persons.


Either way this discussion has been telling of your positions and opinions about them.