All Things LGBTQ+ (3 Viewers)

[Farb]

Didn't really see a place for this so I thought I would start a thread about all things LGBTQ since this is a pretty hot topic in our culture right now

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/17/sup...y-that-refuses-to-work-with-lgbt-couples.html

• The Supreme Court on Thursday delivered a unanimous defeat to LGBT couples in a high-profile case over whether Philadelphia could refuse to contract with a Roman Catholic adoption agency that says its religious beliefs prevent it from working with same-sex foster parents.
• Chief Justice John Roberts wrote in an opinion for a majority of the court that Philadelphia violated the First Amendment by refusing to contract with Catholic Social Services once it learned that the organization would not certify same-sex couples for adoption.

I will admit, I was hopeful for this decision by the SCOTUS but I was surprised by the unanimous decision.

While I don't think there is anything wrong, per se, with same sex couples adopting and raising children (I actually think it is a good thing as it not an abortion) but I also did not want to see the state force a religious institution to bend to a societal norm.

 

[SystemShock]

You are either trying to apply rules to the exceptions or you've appointed yourself the arbiter of what does and does not count as an exception.

I am not doing either.

gen·der
/ˈjendər/
Learn to pronounce
noun
noun: gender; plural noun: genders
1.
either of the two sexes (male and female), especially when considered with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones. The term is also used more broadly to denote a range of identities that do not correspond to established ideas of male and female.

While there are other definitions out there, many which refer to the characteristics of people that are socially constructed, I can work with this one. Is "woman" a gender and does it correspond to any range of identities that do not correspond to established ideas of male and female?

Are you serious? You've never heard the term "unnatural" applied repeatedly to the LGBTQ+ community?

I am not applying any term to the LGBTQ+ community. I believe I said injecting anything into one's body is not natural.

I have heard many different terms applied to many different people. What meaning we give to words depends on context, intentions, and general disposition towards the subject; the difference between seeing an old friend and calling him an SOB vs calling the guy who just cut you off in the parking lot an SOB. Heck, I am Mexican, and that can be a derogatory term in certain circles, especially after descending from escalators.

 

[SystemShock]

You are being disingenuous if you are trying to say you don't understand how "unnatural" has hurtful connotations towards Trans-persons.

I believe I was referring to injections of any kind as not being natural. I think I also mentioned boob jobs. Do you agree or disagree that injections of any kind are not natural?

Or perhaps you care more about parsing definitions than the emotional trauma of trans-persons.

When having a discussion of any kind, parsing definitions is much more important than feelings. And considering I am not the one quoting definitions, well...

Either way this discussion has been telling of your positions and opinions about them.

About them? Are you sure of that?

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

It didn't take long. Smart move.

"NCAA Updates Policy on Transgender Athlete Participation
Nick SelbeJan 19, 2022

On Wednesday, the NCAA announced it had updated its policy regarding participation for transgender athletes, adopting a model that is in line with those used by the U.S. and International Olympic Committees. The Board of Governors voted in support of a sport-by-sport approach to participation that “preserves opportunity for transgender student-athletes while balancing fairness, inclusion and safety for all who compete.” The new policy will be effective immediately.

Transgender athlete participation will now be determined by the national governing body of that particular sport. If no national governing body exists, the international federation policy would be followed. The IOC's previously established criteria would take effect next if there is no international federation policy."

https://www.si.com/college/2022/01/20/ncaa-updates-transgender-athlete-participation-policy

 

[cuddlemonkey]

I am not doing either.

You are. You are saying that exceptions to the rule exist, but you are denying that non-intersex people can exist as exceptions.

While there are other definitions out there, many which refer to the characteristics of people that are socially constructed, I can work with this one. Is "woman" a gender and does it correspond to any range of identities that do not correspond to established ideas of male and female?

I don't pretend to be an expert, but the easiest way to look at it is gender as a social construct vs sex as a biological function. Not all people of the male sex are of the male gender, and not all (edit to fix the wording) people of the female sex are of the female gender. Gender exists as a spectrum.

I am not applying any term to the LGBTQ+ community. I believe I said injecting anything into one's body is not natural.

I have heard many different terms applied to many different people. What meaning we give to words depends on context, intentions, and general disposition towards the subject; the difference between seeing an old friend and calling him an SOB vs calling the guy who just cut you off in the parking lot an SOB. Heck, I am Mexican, and that can be a derogatory term in certain circles, especially after descending from escalators.

You are whether you intended to or not. You called gender reaffirming surgery "unnatural" and compared it to breast enlargement surgery, which is a terrible comparison. And as someone that is so opposed to religion, I find it difficult to believe that you've never heard that term or something similar applied to the LGBTQ+ community and that you don't know the connotation. You're much brighter than that.

 

[MT15]

We’ve already had one state outlaw trans students from any participation in sports, without regard for whether their participation would give them an advantage or not. Surely we can do better than this broad brush approach which will turn all trans students into something like pariahs.

 

[Farb]

It didn't take long. Smart move.

"NCAA Updates Policy on Transgender Athlete Participation
Nick SelbeJan 19, 2022

On Wednesday, the NCAA announced it had updated its policy regarding participation for transgender athletes, adopting a model that is in line with those used by the U.S. and International Olympic Committees. The Board of Governors voted in support of a sport-by-sport approach to participation that “preserves opportunity for transgender student-athletes while balancing fairness, inclusion and safety for all who compete.” The new policy will be effective immediately.

Transgender athlete participation will now be determined by the national governing body of that particular sport. If no national governing body exists, the international federation policy would be followed. The IOC's previously established criteria would take effect next if there is no international federation policy."

https://www.si.com/college/2022/01/20/ncaa-updates-transgender-athlete-participation-policy

It is a start, that is for sure.
I will also remain very skeptical of anything the NCAA does, just as a matter of spite!

 

[Farb]

We’ve already had one state outlaw trans students from any participation in sports, without regard for whether their participation would give them an advantage or not. Surely we can do better than this broad brush approach which will turn all trans students into something like pariahs.

You mean like from the beginning of human existence?

 

[SystemShock]

You are. You are saying that exceptions to the rule exist, but you are denying that non-intersex people can exist as exceptions.

Is there any evidence that suggests that non-intersex people are born with less frequently than intersex people?

I don't pretend to be an expert, but the easiest way to look at it is gender as a social construct vs sex as a biological function. Not all people of the male sex are of the male gender, and not all females of the female sex are of the female gender. Gender exists as a spectrum.

So why are you arguing with me? A social construct is something societies create, and can/will change over time.

You called gender reaffirming surgery "unnatural" and compared it to breast enlargement surgery, which is a terrible comparison.

All surgeries are unnatural, are they not? Do you have any evidence of a surgery that occurs in nature?
Why is a boob job a terrible comparison? Would you say boob jobs are natural or unnatural? I am going to assume you will agree that boob jobs are not natural. Why do people get boob jobs? If a woman gets a boob job to look more feminine, and I told you that's unnatural, or her boobs are fake, do you have a problem with it? But if the boob job is part of reassignment surgery, then it is natural?

And as someone that is so opposed to religion, I find it difficult to believe that you've never heard that term or something similar applied to the LGBTQ+ community and that you don't know the connotation. You're much brighter than that.

I've heard many terms applied to the LGBTQ+ community, but I am not applying any term to the LGBTQ+ community: I am discussing medical procedures.

As for being opposed to religion, there are many reasons why I am opposed to religion, one of them being intolerance of people who don't fit the narrow minded definitions of what humans are and how they should act. In an ironic twist, you are projecting your biases and giving me the holier than thou treatment for something that, in any other context, you will not have an issue with, and even agree with me.

 

[samiam5211]

Is it even possible for something a human does to be unnatural?

Are we not just animals using the resources available to us to do things, like beavers or ants.

 

[Port City JJ]

Assuming your comments were meant to be innocuous, please consider how describing transpeople's efforts to make their sex align with their gender as "unnatural" might stoke painful emotions, especially considering "unnatural" is how many of the religious bigots describe them to justify poor treatment of transpersons .

 

[cuddlemonkey]

Is there any evidence that suggests that non-intersex people are born with less frequently than intersex people?

Frequency doesn't matter. We know that both intersex people and non-intersex people exist. We know that gender is not binary. We know that non-intersex people can be trans. Those people are exceptions to your rule.

So why are you arguing with me? A social construct is something societies create, and can/will change over time.

I wasn't trying to be argumentative in my response. You asked a question and I answered it to the best of my ability, given that I am not an expert nor do I possess any personal experience.

All surgeries are unnatural, are they not? Do you have any evidence of a surgery that occurs in nature?
Why is a boob job a terrible comparison? Would you say boob jobs are natural or unnatural? I am going to assume you will agree that boob jobs are not natural. Why do people get boob jobs? If a woman gets a boob job to look more feminine, and I told you that's unnatural, or her boobs are fake, do you have a problem with it? But if the boob job is part of reassignment surgery, then it is natural?

Generally speaking, breast enlargement surgery is an elective procedure and not necessary to address a medical condition. Gender reassignment surgery is used to treat gender dysphoria and to complete a trans person's transition in consultation with physicians.

I've heard many terms applied to the LGBTQ+ community, but I am not applying any term to the LGBTQ+ community: I am discussing medical procedures.

You are, whether you mean to or not. You are calling gender reassignment surgery- something that is at the core of many trans people's identity- unnatural. This procedure doesn't cross groups like diabetes, heart disease, and cancer. There are no cis people that need gender reassignment surgery. When you call it unnatural, you are applying that specifically to people in the LGBTQ+ community.

As for being opposed to religion, there are many reasons why I am opposed to religion, one of them being intolerance of people who don't fit the narrow minded definitions of what humans are and how they should act. In an ironic twist, you are projecting your biases and giving me the holier than thou treatment for something that, in any other context, you will not have an issue with, and even agree with me.

This is rich, coming from the guy that can't be bothered to see anyone else's opinion on why the word "unnatural" is terrible or try to understand how exceptions might apply to the rule they insist on using.

 

[SamAndreas]

Is it even possible for something a human does to be unnatural?

Are we not just animals using the resources available to us to do thing, like beavers or ants.

Good point, your point shows that there is little meaning "as used" to that pair of terms. They are words that are most useful like as fist sized rocks would be.

I try to not use the "natural" word unless I am saying some process, organic or inorganic, is in the "it happens in nature all on its own without humans getting involved" category.

Like deer and rabbits being born. Weeds coming up.

I use the "unnatural" word for anything that grosses me out, or scars the willies out of me.

Like a clogged septic tank, or a rattlesnake. <<<Those things are unnatural.

I am aware it can be used as a run someone or something down pejorative, as it has been being applied in this thread.

 

[Farb]

Assuming your comments were meant to be innocuous, please consider how describing transpeople's efforts to make their sex align with their gender as "unnatural" might stoke painful emotions, especially considering "unnatural" is how many of the religious bigots describe them to justify poor treatment of transpersons .

Do we consider the cloning of a pig or soon to be wooly mammoth natural or unnatural?

I would say unnatural. Nature did it thing, man is just altering the natural state. Would not have be unnatural?

 

[Farb]

Frequency doesn't matter. We know that both intersex people and non-intersex people exist. We know that gender is not binary. We know that non-intersex people can be trans. Those people are exceptions to your rule.



I wasn't trying to be argumentative in my response. You asked a question and I answered it to the best of my ability, given that I am not an expert nor do I possess any personal experience.



Generally speaking, breast enlargement surgery is an elective procedure and not necessary to address a medical condition. Gender reassignment surgery is used to treat gender dysphoria and to complete a trans person's transition in consultation with physicians.



You are, whether you mean to or not. You are calling gender reassignment surgery- something that is at the core of many trans people's identity- unnatural. This procedure doesn't cross groups like diabetes, heart disease, and cancer. There are no cis people that need gender reassignment surgery. When you call it unnatural, you are applying that specifically to people in the LGBTQ+ community.



This is rich, coming from the guy that can't be bothered to see anyone else's opinion on why the word "unnatural" is terrible or try to understand how exceptions might apply to the rule they insist on using.

I might be reading this wrong, but you are saying that surgery is the cure for gender dysphoria. That is not the case.

Some people need pacemakers, are we to pretend that is perfectly natural as well because it might hurt the feeling of a recipient?

 

[Farb]

https://www.koin.com/local/washingt...ght-alliance-raleigh-hills-elementary-school/

PORTLAND, Ore. (KOIN) – Beaverton parents expressed frustration at Tuesday’s virtual school board meeting about a new club called the Queer Straight Alliance at Raleigh Hills Elementary for fourth and fifth grade students.

“These kids are far too young to be learning about this subject at school, they should be learning about different lifestyles with their parents as is their right,” one parent said during the meeting.

KOIN 6 News spoke with district officials who said the club was started earlier this month by two fifth graders.

The district says 40 students signed up after the two students gave a presentation about the club to fourth and fifth graders.

Since the presentation was during school hours, district officials said parent approval wasn’t needed.

“If students came forward and asked to start a video game club or a chess club would they be upset if they didn’t get parental consent? I think it’s that they’re maybe homophobic, transphobic, queer-phobic, I don’t know what it is, but I do have to question their logic and morality,” another parent said during the meeting.

Other parents say they’re thankful to the teachers and administrators who support students who want to be a part of the group.

“Not only is this their legally protected right this is a beautiful and necessary identity affirming community that offers a safe space for students to ask critical questions and learn about each other as whole human beings,” another parent said.

KOIN 6 News is working to learn more, including district emails about the club, how it would operate, and what rights parents have.

State sponsored school with more early youth indoctrination. High school, I could see. 4th and 5th graders? Why does the activists want to sexualize young children so badly. It is creepy. IMO.

 

[Port City JJ]

Discussing homosexuality isn't sexualizing children.

My 5th grader knows uncle mitch is gay.

Your bad takes never stop

 

[Farb]

Discussing homosexuality isn't sexualizing children.

My 5th grader knows uncle mitch is gay.

Your bad takes never stop

Good for your little one. I have a feeling this 'group' was not established to discuss how to deal with 'uncle mitch'.

 

[SamAndreas]

Good for your little one. I have a feeling this 'group' was not established to discuss how to deal with 'uncle mitch'.

You should read up on it:

Gay–straight alliance - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

First if all that club in Beaverton was started by two fifth graders. All of a sudden activists and parents were being talked about.

It's important to remember who started it when one adds what a gay-straight alliance is about. The point of the clubs are to stop something that has been going on in schools for longer than I've been alive. That is school yard bullies harassing other kids on playgrounds by calling them name like fags and what not.

I remember one of the kids being harassed all the time about being gay at about forth grade age. I don't even know if that kid who was being harassed actually was gay. The day in day out beat down that happened to that boy lasted all year, and it was harsh. And that was just the beginning of some of what I saw growing up.

A kid in middle school tried to do it to me once, called me a gay and was trying to get others to get into it too. He found out county kids who rode the bus to school were tougher than city kids who walked to school. And quicker about wrapping something like that up, country kids had to finish their fights and still catch their bus home.

So what a gay-straight, or queer-straight alliance is is a few kids tired of seeing other kids being beat upon banding together to oppose a gang, or gangs. in their schools who are doing that.

It's kind of like the clubs on collage campuses who give the female students rape whistles and will come running if they hear a whistle being blown.