All Things LGBTQ+ (2 Viewers)

[Farb]

Didn't really see a place for this so I thought I would start a thread about all things LGBTQ since this is a pretty hot topic in our culture right now

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/17/sup...y-that-refuses-to-work-with-lgbt-couples.html

• The Supreme Court on Thursday delivered a unanimous defeat to LGBT couples in a high-profile case over whether Philadelphia could refuse to contract with a Roman Catholic adoption agency that says its religious beliefs prevent it from working with same-sex foster parents.
• Chief Justice John Roberts wrote in an opinion for a majority of the court that Philadelphia violated the First Amendment by refusing to contract with Catholic Social Services once it learned that the organization would not certify same-sex couples for adoption.

I will admit, I was hopeful for this decision by the SCOTUS but I was surprised by the unanimous decision.

While I don't think there is anything wrong, per se, with same sex couples adopting and raising children (I actually think it is a good thing as it not an abortion) but I also did not want to see the state force a religious institution to bend to a societal norm.

 

[cuddlemonkey]

I might be reading this wrong, but you are saying that surgery is the cure for gender dysphoria. That is not the case.

Some people need pacemakers, are we to pretend that is perfectly natural as well because it might hurt the feeling of a recipient?

I am saying that gender affirmation surgery (which seems to be the more accurate term) is one way to treat gender dysphoria and that a person should make treatment decisions in conjunction with their physician or team of physicians.

For instance, this is what the Mayo Clinic says:

Medical treatment of gender dysphoria might include:

• Hormone therapy, such as feminizing hormone therapy or masculinizing hormone therapy
• Surgery, such as feminizing surgery or masculinizing surgery to change the breasts or chest, external genitalia, internal genitalia, facial features, and body contouring

Some people use hormone therapy to seek maximum feminization or masculinization. Others might find relief from gender dysphoria by using hormones to minimize secondary sex characteristics, such as breasts and facial hair. Treatments are based on your goals, as well as an evaluation of the risks and benefits of medication use, the presence of any other conditions, and consideration of your social and economic issues. Many people also find that surgery is necessary to relieve their gender dysphoria.

The World Professional Association for Transgender Health provides the following criteria for hormonal and/or surgical treatment of gender dysphoria:

• Persistent, well-documented gender dysphoria.
• Capacity to make a fully informed decision and consent to treatment.
• Age of majority in a given country or, if younger, follow the standard of care for children and adolescents.
• If significant medical or mental concerns are present, they must be reasonably well controlled.

Gender dysphoria - Diagnosis and treatment - Mayo Clinic

www.mayoclinic.org

 

[cuddlemonkey]

State sponsored school with more early youth indoctrination. High school, I could see. 4th and 5th graders? Why does the activists want to sexualize young children so badly. It is creepy. IMO.

Is it sexualizing children to teach them that heterosexual people exist and are accepted for who they are?

 

[samiam5211]

I might be reading this wrong, but you are saying that surgery is the cure for gender dysphoria. That is not the case.

Some people need pacemakers, are we to pretend that is perfectly natural as well because it might hurt the feeling of a recipient?

Yea,

The Human species evolved to the point that they were able to create and use pacemakers.

Is a bee hive natural? Are there other examples in nature of animals making honeycomb?

 

[SystemShock]

Frequency doesn't matter.

But it does.

We know that both intersex people and non-intersex people exist. We know that gender is not binary. We know that non-intersex people can be trans. Those people are exceptions to your rule.

Why are you mixing sex with gender? I thought that was a no-no.

Generally speaking, breast enlargement surgery is an elective procedure and not necessary to address a medical condition. Gender reassignment surgery is used to treat gender dysphoria and to complete a trans person's transition in consultation with physicians.

Breast implants can be part of sex reassignment surgery, after all, ne needs boobs to complete the look. Also women that had gone through mastectomies either because of breast cancer or the high probability to get cancer, and it's not just for looks, but self esteem and identity as well... but who cares about their feelings, they aren't transgender.

You are calling gender reassignment surgery- something that is at the core of many trans people's identity- unnatural.

Do you have any evidence of any surgery being natural?
Side note, if gender and sex are not the same thing, shouldn't we call it gender reassignment surgery?

This procedure doesn't cross groups like diabetes, heart disease, and cancer. There are no cis people that need gender reassignment surgery. When you call it unnatural, you are applying that specifically to people in the LGBTQ+ community.

No.
Lesbians don't need any type of surgery to be lesbians; neither do gay, bi, queer... in any case, when I say any surgery is unnatural, I am applying the term to all surgeries, not a group of people.

This is rich, coming from the guy that can't be bothered to see anyone else's opinion on why the word "unnatural" is terrible or try to understand how exceptions might apply to the rule they insist on using.

Words aren't terrible. It is the sentiment behind the word that's good or bad. Again, I am Mexican, and the word Mexican can have different connotations depending on context and who says it.

You may think what I said is "rich", but it is you who cannot get past the meaning the word "unnatural" has to you, and how you feel it is used to describe other people, even going as far to accuse me of including all non-cis people. But I am simply not, even if you insist I am doing so.

This reminds me of what happened to Richard Dawkins a couple of years ago, when he posed a question comparing Jenner with Dolezal, He had a legitimate question about constructs and perceptions in our society, and - I think - sound arguments could be made for different views, but he immediately was labeled transphobic and was even stripped of awards because "how dare he not fit in our definitions and mindsets".

When I say surgeries are unnatural, I mean surgeries are unnatural. That's it.
I don't mean what you claim I mean: "surgeries are unnatural. Trans people go through gender assignment surgery. Therefore all non-cis people are unnatural"

 

[SystemShock]

Yea,

The Human species evolved to the point that they were able to create and use pacemakers.

Is a bee hive natural? Are there other examples in nature of animals making honeycomb?

Are you kidding?

 

[SystemShock]

Is it even possible for something a human does to be unnatural?

Are you kidding?

 

[cuddlemonkey]

But it does.

Only because you insist that it matters, which takes us back to you appointing yourself the arbiter of what does and does not count as an exception to the rule.

Why are you mixing sex with gender? I thought that was a no-no.

I'm not. I'm saying that given everything we know about both sex and gender, it's possible for someone that is not intersex to have a gender that doesn't match their reproductive organs. Those people are exceptions to the rule.

Breast implants can be part of sex reassignment surgery,

Sure, but that takes us out of the realm of a boob job (which has a very specific connotation).

Also women that had gone through mastectomies either because of breast cancer or the high probability to get cancer, and it's not just for looks, but self esteem and identity as well... but who cares about their feelings, they aren't transgender.

Again, you have left the realm of boob jobs and are now entering the territory of preventative surgery.

Do you have any evidence of any surgery being natural?
Side note, if gender and sex are not the same thing, shouldn't we call it gender reassignment surgery?

You're missing the point. It's not about the surgery. It's about a person's identity. Using the term 'unnatural' to refer to someone in the LGBTQ+ community trying to reach peace with who they are is callous, and that has been explained to you multiple times.

No.
Lesbians don't need any type of surgery to be lesbians; neither do gay, bi, queer... in any case, when I say any surgery is unnatural, I am applying the term to all surgeries, not a group of people.

See above. Your inability (or unwillingness) to see it from any other point of view is the problem.

Words aren't terrible. It is the sentiment behind the word that's good or bad. Again, I am Mexican, and the word Mexican can have different connotations depending on context and who says it.

Plenty of words are terrible.

You may think what I said is "rich", but it is you who cannot get past the meaning the word "unnatural" has to you, and how you feel it is used to describe other people, even going as far to accuse me of including all non-cis people. But I am simply not, even if you insist I am doing so.

And it is you who, again, fails to see anything that isn't their own POV. That's why it's rich that you would call someone else close-minded.

This reminds me of what happened to Richard Dawkins a couple of years ago, when he posed a question comparing Jenner with Dolezal, He had a legitimate question about constructs and perceptions in our society, and - I think - sound arguments could be made for different views, but he immediately was labeled transphobic and was even stripped of awards because "how dare he not fit in our definitions and mindsets".

Except, as it turns out, he's kinda transphobic.

Atheist Richard Dawkins Swings to Anti-Trans Right in Grasp at Broader Intellectual Relevance

Yesterday, Richard Dawkins tweeted a request to his followers, asking them to sign on to a declaration by UK-based anti-transgender advocacy group the Women’s Human Rights Campaign (WHRC). Best known among anti-transgender circles for their proposed re-writing of the 1981 Convention on the E

religiondispatches.org

When I say surgeries are unnatural, I mean surgeries are unnatural. That's it.
I don't mean what you claim I mean: "surgeries are unnatural. Trans people go through gender assignment surgery. Therefore all non-cis people are unnatural"

Yes, you're super supportive of the trans community and meant no harm anywhere. For instance, you would never misgender someone, even as a hypothetical...

after all, ne needs boobs to complete the look.

Oh... maybe you would.

 

[samiam5211]

Are you kidding?

No

 

[Farb]

Yea,

The Human species evolved to the point that they were able to create and use pacemakers.

Is a bee hive natural? Are there other examples in nature of animals making honeycomb?

without outside intervention, a bee hive will occur in nature. Much like human poop, regardless of whether what we ate was man made for natural food.

I think the use to tools (from fire to tech) is man, manipulating the nature for his use/comfort.

I want to think about this when I am drinking, interesting discussion.

 

[SamAndreas]

without outside intervention, a bee hive will occur in nature. Much like human poop, regardless of whether what we ate was man made for natural food.

I think the use to tools (from fire to tech) is man, manipulating the nature for his use/comfort.

I want to think about this when I am drinking, interesting discussion.

I think it's an interesting discussion too, but I don't get to drink anymore.



I was pleased about it when you made agreement with an oblique reference to my post on the last page. And I would agree it doesn't matter if the food is labeled as "natural."

 

[samiam5211]

without outside intervention, a bee hive will occur in nature. Much like human poop, regardless of whether what we ate was man made for natural food.

I think the use to tools (from fire to tech) is man, manipulating the nature for his use/comfort.

I want to think about this when I am drinking, interesting discussion.

What is outside intervention?

 

[SamAndreas]

What is outside intervention?

When I read his post I understood "outside intervention" to mean slavers bearing wax.

 

[brandon]

Breast implants can be part of sex reassignment surgery, after all, ne needs boobs to complete the look. Also women that had gone through mastectomies either because of breast cancer or the high probability to get cancer, and it's not just for looks, but self esteem and identity as well... but who cares about their feelings, they aren't transgender.

How come when a trans person gets implants, it’s to “complete the look,” but when a cancer patient gets implants, it’s for “self-esteem and identity”?

The whole argument about sex reassignment surgery is that for trans people, this is absolutely about self-esteem and identity.

These two situations are medically exactly the same. Neither the cancer patient nor the trans person needs breasts to live, yet both may need them to feel like they are a complete person.

You just happen to agree with one of the situations and not the other because you’re biased.

 

[SystemShock]

How come when a trans person gets implants, it’s to “complete the look,” but when a cancer patient gets implants, it’s for “self-esteem and identity”?

To be clear, I am not saying that. I replied to a post that said "Generally speaking, breast enlargement surgery is an elective procedure and not necessary to address a medical condition" .... maybe I read it wrong, but sounded dismissive of women - the vaginaed ones - who get the procedure.

In reality, any medical procedure, for whatever reason, unless forced upon someone, is elective. One could choose not to go through with a medical procedure. Case and point, my FIL refused to get dialysis. He did die because of it, but it was his choice.

The whole argument about sex reassignment surgery is that for trans people, this is absolutely about self-esteem and identity.

Sure. I don't think I have ever argue against that.

These two situations are medically exactly the same. Neither the cancer patient nor the trans person needs breasts to live, yet both may need them to feel like they are a complete person.

Correct.

You just happen to agree with one of the situations and not the other because you’re biased.

Wrong.

Humans routinely change their appearance for self-esteem and identity reasons. From haircuts to tattoos, losing weight, gaining weight, or even just the clothes one wears, we do all of that to feel better about ourselves. "Completing the look" does go a long way to make us feel better about ourselves, whether is mere vanity or to ameliorate deep psychological conditions. In that vein, breast implants for a transgender person are not more important or "a generally an elective procedure" than breast implants for any other person, which is what the statement I replied to made it sound like.

 

[SystemShock]

No

You need help.

 

[SystemShock]

Only because you insist that it matters, which takes us back to you appointing yourself the arbiter of what does and does not count as an exception to the rule.

Granted, we are using rules/exceptions figuratively, but still, rules apply much more often than exceptions, so frequency matters.

I'm not. I'm saying that given everything we know about both sex and gender, it's possible for someone that is not intersex to have a gender that doesn't match their reproductive organs. Those people are exceptions to the rule.

Ok?

Sure, but that takes us out of the realm of a boob job (which has a very specific connotation).

What is that connotation? What would you like me to use? Breast augmentation? Breast enhancement? Breast replacement? Or the longer "placing silicone bags filled with saline solution under a person's breast tissue"?

Again, you have left the realm of boob jobs and are now entering the territory of preventative surgery.

The preventive surgery itself has nothing to do with the "placing silicone bags filled with saline solution under a person's breast tissue" afterwards .

You're missing the point. It's not about the surgery. It's about a person's identity. Using the term 'unnatural' to refer to someone in the LGBTQ+ community trying to reach peace with who they are is callous, and that has been explained to you multiple times.

I get the surgery is about the person's identity. That doesn't make the surgery grow on trees. And stop accusing me of referring to anyone a person as unnatural. I am not saying such thing.

See above. Your inability (or unwillingness) to see it from any other point of view is the problem.

You continue to accuse me of calling the LGBTQ+ community unnatural, and you tell me my point of view is the problem. Again, that's rich.

Plenty of words are terrible.

Words are not terrible. It is the sentiment and intent behind those words that are.

And it is you who, again, fails to see anything that isn't their own POV. That's why it's rich that you would call someone else close-minded.

Uh-hu.

Except, as it turns out, he's kinda transphobic.

Atheist Richard Dawkins Swings to Anti-Trans Right in Grasp at Broader Intellectual Relevance

Yesterday, Richard Dawkins tweeted a request to his followers, asking them to sign on to a declaration by UK-based anti-transgender advocacy group the Women’s Human Rights Campaign (WHRC). Best known among anti-transgender circles for their proposed re-writing of the 1981 Convention on the E

religiondispatches.org

No, he's not. You have to read and understand what he's signing, and why he's promoting signing it. But you won't do either.

Yes, you're super supportive of the trans community and meant no harm anywhere. For instance, you would never misgender someone, even as a hypothetical...

Nah, I'd do that if I really wanted to piss off someone or even provoke a fist fight. But or the most part...

Oh... maybe you would.

What does that mean?

 

[samiam5211]

You need help.

Humans come from Earth.

Anything humans do using materials that come from earth, is natural.

 

[SystemShock]

Anything humans do using materials that come from earth, is natural.

Good one.