All Things LGBTQ+ (2 Viewers)

[Farb]

Didn't really see a place for this so I thought I would start a thread about all things LGBTQ since this is a pretty hot topic in our culture right now

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/17/sup...y-that-refuses-to-work-with-lgbt-couples.html

• The Supreme Court on Thursday delivered a unanimous defeat to LGBT couples in a high-profile case over whether Philadelphia could refuse to contract with a Roman Catholic adoption agency that says its religious beliefs prevent it from working with same-sex foster parents.
• Chief Justice John Roberts wrote in an opinion for a majority of the court that Philadelphia violated the First Amendment by refusing to contract with Catholic Social Services once it learned that the organization would not certify same-sex couples for adoption.

I will admit, I was hopeful for this decision by the SCOTUS but I was surprised by the unanimous decision.

While I don't think there is anything wrong, per se, with same sex couples adopting and raising children (I actually think it is a good thing as it not an abortion) but I also did not want to see the state force a religious institution to bend to a societal norm.

 

[Farb]

Farb, that incident in Loudoun County didn’t involve a trans student. The only sources for that allegation are unreliable as far as I can tell. The police and/or the prosecutor had to make a statement that the student wasn’t trans at the time, IIRC. Even the article you just posted doesn’t characterize the perpetrator as trans. Yet, you are still alleging this involved a trans student. Why do you do that?

Also, the superintendent explained earlier that when asked about sexual assaults in bathrooms he was answering that in the context of trans students because they were discussing allowing trans students to use their preferred bathrooms. This wasn’t involving a trans student, so he didn’t mention it. That’s the “lie” you reference.

It is clear that allowing the student to transfer to a different school where he assaulted a female student wasn’t a good choice and apparently the board decided to place the blame on the superintendent. Interestingly, the board decided their firing was “without cause”. This allows him to get a six figure separation payment. Why would they do that if they think they’re on solid ground with the firing? I think it may be an indication that they are acquiescing to local parents who have been whipped into a frenzy by people who are using this horrible incident to further an anti-trans agenda.

What say you about these points?

Yeah, what you call a male that dresses in a skirt and uses the female bathroom?
Are you asking my why a school board, that has been proven to be corrupt and ideological would create a scapegoat and provide that person a golden parachute to fall on his sword? I will let you try and figure that out.

 

[Farb]

Gender identity has nothing to do with sexuality. People that identify as male, for example, can be gay, straight, bi, asexual, pansexual, or any other number of things.

Ok, so that is still not groomy behavior? How would you feel if an adult talked to your child about a sexual question they were having and they told your child to not tell you, it would be their little secret? I hope I know the answer.

 

[Farb]

Islam has apologists too.

Would you like to see another inquisition, crusade?



So you think the Branch Davidians were leftists?

As for the side note, it wasn't the FBI's arrogance that killed all those people. It was those people refusing to comply with lawful bench warrants and shooting at the FBI that killed them.

They do indeed.

I would not consider the crusades and the Spanish inquisition on the same plain. Would I like to see armed Christians in Africa protecting the Christian from being slaughtered because of their religion. Yes.

No, I think the branch davidians were a cult.

In my opinion it was their arrogance. The DEA and FBI had bench warrants but if I remember right the evidence gathered was determined by a investigation to be severly lacking. Do you know for sure who fired first? DEA killing a dog, the breach of the complex?
What is your take on Ruby Ridge, since no there is no religious aspect?

 

[Farb]

She sounds a lot like some people on this board...

Hi

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

Are you willing to make the same stance on school? Does a child who attends school volunteer to participate in a pride parade at school?

A parent, has all the rights over a child. Why? Because they made them and they are theirs. I know it is fashionable to push back against that as the war of the west is in full swing but you have to be honest, all parents in all societies want and expect to have dominion over their young children.

Can you give me a reason on why you think the state has more right to determine how a parent raises their child? (please assume we are discussing a normal parent child relationship).

If you're asking me, and I think you are, if parents should pick the details of their local school's curriculum my answer is absolutely not. We have professional educators who are trained to do that sort of thing. What would a barber, mechanic, cook, minister, carpenter, banker, car salesman, or small business owner, know about educating a child? Zero, in most cases.

For example, how many of your town's parents did, or would have, attended or contributed to this conference?:

Excellence in Teaching: A Common Goal​

---

Transcript of a twenty-seven minute video program on the results of the National Conference held at Yale University February 16-18, 1983
Supported by the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation in cooperation with the Carnegie Foundation for the Advancement of Teaching, the Council of Chief State School Officers, and Yale University

Featuring in order of appearance:

A. Bartlett Giamatti, President, Yale University
Ernest L. Boyer, President, The Carnegie Foundation for the Advancement of Teaching
Robert MacNeil, Executive Editor, "The MacNeil-Lehrer Report"
Gordon M. Ambach , President, The University of the State of New York, Commissioner of Education, State of New York
Barbara W. Newell, Chancellor, the State University System of Florida
Norman C. Francis, President, Xavier University of Louisiana
Craig Phillips, State Superintendent of Public Instruction, State of North Carolina
Benjamin H. Alexander, President, University of the District of Columbia
John E. Sawyer, President, the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation
Floretta Dukes McKenzie, Superintendent of Schools, District of Columbia
Stephen S. Kaagan, Commissioner of Education, State of Vermont
John B. Duff, Chancellor of Higher Education, Massachusetts Board of Regents
Michael G. Cooke, Professor of English, Yale University

---

President Giamatti:​

Good evening. I want to welcome you to Yale and to New Haven. By coming here from 38 states, American Samoa, the Northern Marianas, and the U. S. Virgin Islands, you have made this a truly national meeting of Chief State School Officers and college and university presidents and chancellors a national meeting of elementary and secondary and higher education which is almost without precedent. A central purpose of this meeting is to draw national attention to the crucial role that higher education can, indeed must, play in strengthening teaching in our schools.

Dr. Boyer:​

The drama of America in its endless town meeting is to me something very beautiful. That is, as de Tocqueville put it, when in doubt, call a meeting. But I don't diminish that, because that signals the priorities that somehow shake us out of the tracks we're on, and the very fact that we leap out of those means something is stirring in our society that needs attention. And so the issue, what have you accomplished? Well, the accomplishment has been that people have come to New Haven.

Mr. MacNeil:​

I read that in your opening remarks you said that there are four problems. You mentioned four problems, nice alliterative problems: "prestige, power, pay, and preparation." Which of those problems . . .

President Giamatti:​

Those are with regard to teachers . . . ?

Mr. MacNeil:​

Yes, with regard to teaching. Which of those problems does this effort, this conference, carve out and potentially solve?

President Giamatti:​

Well, I suppose in an interesting way, we are not going to solve the problems of pay, and we are not going to solve the problems of power, whatever that may mean, in any given institution. The extent to which school teachers and university faculty believe themselves engaged in a common enterprise that has dignity and purpose and "juice" in it, the extent that there are interests of prestige, and self-worth, then I think in fact the mode of collaboration will address that in due course. And I think in terms of preparation, by which I mean the sense of how better to encourage the people who do teach well, to teach better, in ways not only in the boosting of morale which goes to the other point, then I think there have been a great many ways in which that has been addressed, in terms of the various case studies that we saw.

Mr. MacNeil:​

Mr. Ambach.

Commissioner Ambach:​

I think we leave with a much better understanding of some of the specific projects that are underway. The stress here has been on practice, on what's actually happening, and although there may be some who have known about a particular project in Michigan, or a project in North Carolina, a project in Louisiana, we may not have all known about those projects, and what happened in order to put them in place in the particular locations. So, I think we each carry away a certain, very specific learning about some practice which has gone on elsewhere in the country. And I think we come away with a mutual concern that it is possible to replicate these kinds of practices elsewhere, if we will take the initiative to do so. And I think perhaps, along the lines of prestige, one of the most significant points that has been made is the matter of the colleagueship among those who are in faculties in the colleges and universities and those-who are in the elementary and secondary schools. We have our educational system very much split along horizontal divisions. There is very little vertical connection or integration, if you will, for the most part. And I think some very significant points have been made by way of what it means for the teacher in the elementary or secondary schools to be associated with faculty at the college and university level, in the sense of prestige, but I think more important, in the sense of commitment to scholarship, and a commitment to learning, to being on the forefront of learning, and in the sense, mutual, of an impact on the university level, by way of a better understanding of in fact what is really going on in the schools.

Mr. MacNeil:​

Yes Ma'am.

Barbara W. Newell:​

Barbara Newell, University System of Florida. If you re adding so substantially to human knowledge, one of our real problems is how do we make sure that all within the educational system share, and it seems to me to be one of the major parts of the New Haven project, one of the very real reasons for the partnership, is to try to make sure that all teachers in the system have an opportunity to know how fields are changing, what the expectations of students are. I think the subject matter in-service training is perhaps the most significant part of the partnership. And as we put our emphasis on subject matter it also seems to me what we re saying is that the partnership has got to be far broader than Schools of Education. It has to cover the entire university community.

Dr. Boyer:​

Finally, I stressed the need to have continued schooling of the teacher. The data are absolutely shocking. Some have told us about forty percent of the teachers have not had continuing education courses over the life of their high school teaching this in science and mathematics as the field is changing. All of these, I stressed this morning, are obligations for both the schools and the colleges, and there are ways in which both of these institutions can focus on what I think is a comprehensive response to the problem of teaching excellence in the schools.

https://teachersinstitute.yale.edu/transcripts/F4.html

 

[MT15]

These folks don’t give a crap about child abuse or sexual trafficking. They only care about trying to demonize gay and trans people.

 

[MT15]

Yeah, what you call a male that dresses in a skirt and uses the female bathroom?
Are you asking my why a school board, that has been proven to be corrupt and ideological would create a scapegoat and provide that person a golden parachute to fall on his sword? I will let you try and figure that out.

My daughter went to HS with a male who wore long skirts every day. Nothing trans or gay about him at all, he just wanted to be different. The boy you are talking about didn’t go into the girls bathroom to use the facilities. He went in there to meet up with a girl - it was their regular spot to have sex at the school.

The school board hasn’t been proven to be corrupt and ideological. Unless you read and believe lies. But you do that so I can see where you would be confused.

 

[cuddlemonkey]

Ok, so that is still not groomy behavior? How would you feel if an adult talked to your child about a sexual question they were having and they told your child to not tell you, it would be their little secret? I hope I know the answer.

Once again: GENDER ≠ SEXUALITY. Your framing is dishonest and insulting.

 

[MT15]

These folks don’t give a crap about child abuse or sexual trafficking. They only care about trying to demonize gay and trans people.

Article about Tate

 

[SystemShock]

They do indeed.

I would not consider the crusades and the Spanish inquisition on the same plain.

I wasn't comparing them, but, at their core, the purpose of both was to spread religion and obtain financial gain by force.

Would I like to see armed Christians in Africa protecting the Christian from being slaughtered because of their religion. Yes.

By all means. They can more than afford the PMCs

In my opinion it was their arrogance. The DEA and FBI had bench warrants but if I remember right the evidence gathered was determined by a investigation to be severly lacking. Do you know for sure who fired first? DEA killing a dog, the breach of the complex?
What is your take on Ruby Ridge, since no there is no religious aspect?

The U.S. Marshals (Ruby Ridge) and the ATF (Waco) presented bench warrants and were shot at. How do you expect things to go down?

Ruby Ridge, the Marshals had a bench warrant to arrest Randy Weaver for failure to appear in court. They got there, and while surveying the property, they were shot at and a Marshal was killed. What do you expect to happen after that?

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

Ruby Ridge, the Marshals had a bench warrant to arrest Randy Weaver for failure to appear in court. They got there, and while surveying the property, they were shot at and a Marshal was killed. What do you expect to happen after that?

I don't believe it was quite so cut and dry.

=============================================

Randy Weaver, a former U.S. Army engineer, moved with his family in 1983 to a cabin he built on Ruby Ridge, about 40 miles (65 km) from the Canadian border. Harris often stayed with the family in the cabin for extended periods of time.


Weaver’s troubles with the U.S. federal government began when he attended several meetings of the Aryan Nations, a white supremacist group, at its compound in Hayden Lake, Idaho, in the late 1980s. Weaver was not a member of the Aryan Nations, but he shared the group’s white supremacist and antigovernment views. At one of the meetings, Weaver befriended an informant of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF), who purchased two illegal sawed-off shotguns from Weaver in October 1989.


When Weaver refused to become an informant for the ATF, federal agents pursued a weapons charge against him. He was arrested and released with a trial set for February 19, 1991. The trial was then moved to February 20, but a probation officer sent a letter to Weaver, incorrectly stating that the new trial date was March 20. When Weaver failed to appear for trial, the court issued a bench warrant for his arrest. Weaver was subsequently indicted by a federal grand jury for failing to appear at trial, and the U.S. Marshal Service was tasked with arresting him. Marshals assessed that Weaver and his family were likely to resist violently if confronted directly, so plans for a stealth operation were drawn up.


On August 21, 1992, the situation turned violent after Weaver’s dog discovered a surveillance team of six heavily armed U.S. marshals inside the Ruby Ridge property. One of them shot and killed the dog, which led to an exchange of fire with Sammy Weaver, who was shot in the back and killed. Harris also opened fire, killing Degan.


After the shootings, the federal marshals requested assistance from the FBI, which dispatched its Hostage Rescue Team to Ruby Ridge. On August 22, Lon Horiuchi, an FBI sniper hiding about 200 yards (183 metres) from the cabin at Ruby Ridge, opened fire when he believed Weaver and Harris were preparing to shoot at an FBI helicopter. The first shot hit Randy Weaver in the arm. Horiuchi fired a second shot, meant for Harris, as the men ran back into the cabin. The bullet struck Vicki Weaver in the face while she held her infant daughter behind the front door of the cabin and also injured Harris. Vicki Weaver died soon after, but her body remained in the cabin for 11 days.


Weaver and Harris finally surrendered to the federal officers about a week later. They were charged with a host of crimes, including murder, conspiracy, and assault. An Idaho jury acquitted Harris of all charges. Weaver was convicted of failing to appear for the original firearms charge.


An inquiry by the Justice Department criticized the FBI for failing to gather sufficient intelligence and for not ordering the residents of the cabin to surrender before engaging them in a firefight. It also concluded that Horiuchi’s second shot was unconstitutional because Harris and Weaver were running for cover and could not be considered imminent threats. The inquiry further alleged that Horiuchi unnecessarily endangered others by firing at the door of the cabin. Nevertheless, the U.S. attorney general decided that criminal charges against Horiuchi were unwarranted. Prosecutors in Boundary county, Idaho, however, charged Horiuchi with involuntary manslaughter. The case was removed to a federal district court, which dismissed charges against Horiuchi, on the grounds that he was immune from prosecution because he was acting in his official capacity. An appeals court affirmed the district court’s ruling, but a second “en banc” (fuller complement of judges) panel reversed that decision and required that Horiuchi stand trial. Before a third, larger en banc panel could be convened to consider that decision, the state of Idaho announced that it was dropping charges, and all three earlier rulings were vacated.


In 1995 the federal government settled a lawsuit brought by Randy Weaver and his three surviving daughters.


https://www.britannica.com/event/Ruby-Ridge

 

[SystemShock]

I don't believe it was quite so cut and dry.

=============================================

Randy Weaver, a former U.S. Army engineer, moved with his family in 1983 to a cabin he built on Ruby Ridge, about 40 miles (65 km) from the Canadian border. Harris often stayed with the family in the cabin for extended periods of time.


Weaver’s troubles with the U.S. federal government began when he attended several meetings of the Aryan Nations, a white supremacist group, at its compound in Hayden Lake, Idaho, in the late 1980s. Weaver was not a member of the Aryan Nations, but he shared the group’s white supremacist and antigovernment views. At one of the meetings, Weaver befriended an informant of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF), who purchased two illegal sawed-off shotguns from Weaver in October 1989.


When Weaver refused to become an informant for the ATF, federal agents pursued a weapons charge against him. He was arrested and released with a trial set for February 19, 1991. The trial was then moved to February 20, but a probation officer sent a letter to Weaver, incorrectly stating that the new trial date was March 20. When Weaver failed to appear for trial, the court issued a bench warrant for his arrest. Weaver was subsequently indicted by a federal grand jury for failing to appear at trial, and the U.S. Marshal Service was tasked with arresting him. Marshals assessed that Weaver and his family were likely to resist violently if confronted directly, so plans for a stealth operation were drawn up.


On August 21, 1992, the situation turned violent after Weaver’s dog discovered a surveillance team of six heavily armed U.S. marshals inside the Ruby Ridge property. One of them shot and killed the dog, which led to an exchange of fire with Sammy Weaver, who was shot in the back and killed. Harris also opened fire, killing Degan.


After the shootings, the federal marshals requested assistance from the FBI, which dispatched its Hostage Rescue Team to Ruby Ridge. On August 22, Lon Horiuchi, an FBI sniper hiding about 200 yards (183 metres) from the cabin at Ruby Ridge, opened fire when he believed Weaver and Harris were preparing to shoot at an FBI helicopter. The first shot hit Randy Weaver in the arm. Horiuchi fired a second shot, meant for Harris, as the men ran back into the cabin. The bullet struck Vicki Weaver in the face while she held her infant daughter behind the front door of the cabin and also injured Harris. Vicki Weaver died soon after, but her body remained in the cabin for 11 days.


Weaver and Harris finally surrendered to the federal officers about a week later. They were charged with a host of crimes, including murder, conspiracy, and assault. An Idaho jury acquitted Harris of all charges. Weaver was convicted of failing to appear for the original firearms charge.


An inquiry by the Justice Department criticized the FBI for failing to gather sufficient intelligence and for not ordering the residents of the cabin to surrender before engaging them in a firefight. It also concluded that Horiuchi’s second shot was unconstitutional because Harris and Weaver were running for cover and could not be considered imminent threats. The inquiry further alleged that Horiuchi unnecessarily endangered others by firing at the door of the cabin. Nevertheless, the U.S. attorney general decided that criminal charges against Horiuchi were unwarranted. Prosecutors in Boundary county, Idaho, however, charged Horiuchi with involuntary manslaughter. The case was removed to a federal district court, which dismissed charges against Horiuchi, on the grounds that he was immune from prosecution because he was acting in his official capacity. An appeals court affirmed the district court’s ruling, but a second “en banc” (fuller complement of judges) panel reversed that decision and required that Horiuchi stand trial. Before a third, larger en banc panel could be convened to consider that decision, the state of Idaho announced that it was dropping charges, and all three earlier rulings were vacated.


In 1995 the federal government settled a lawsuit brought by Randy Weaver and his three surviving daughters.


https://www.britannica.com/event/Ruby-Ridge

... and ?

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

... and ?

What do you mean "and?" I said Ruby Ridge wasn't as cut and dry as you made it out to be and posted the more complicated real story indicating that the FBI and ATF did a poor job at best and that Farb has a right to be suspicious, disappointed, in/by the government's actions.

I might add that the government wasn't at it's best at Waco either.

 

[SystemShock]

What do you mean "and?" I said Ruby Ridge wasn't as cut and dry as you made it out to be and posted the more complicated real story indicating that the FBI and ATF did a poor job at best and that Farb has a right to be suspicious, disappointed, in/by the government's actions.

I might add that the government wasn't at it's best at Waco either.

The only part I alluded to is the fact that the Marshals, who had nothing to do with anything prior to being directed to serve a bench warrant, tried to serve a bench warrant and were shot at, and if you shoot at federal officers, they will shoot back. In any case, I am not going to suffer the arrests or shootings of white nationalists selling illegal guns.

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

................ In any case, I am not going to suffer the arrests or shootings of white nationalists selling illegal guns.

Just like you weren't going to suffer the marginalization of drag queens?

 

[SystemShock]

Just like you weren't going to suffer the marginalization of drag queens?

Yep.

 

[CoolBrees]

Thank you for posting the Ruby Ridge account.

After reading, I see both sides.

On one hand, the sniper taking a shot at people running is murder unless in the theater of war. His and every person in that house’s rights were violated

On the other, he’s a white supremacist so fork him and his dead arse wife.

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

.................................................

On one hand, the sniper taking a shot at people running is murder unless in the theater of war. His and every person in that house’s rights were violated

On the other, he’s a white supremacist so fork him and his dead arse wife.

Yes, but as you said his rights were violated. If the government violates the rights of an illegal gun selling white supremacist they will violate the rights of anyone of us and the next thing you know we'll be living in Russia. Make no mistake about that.