Will “mass deportation” actually happen (2 Viewers)

[superchuck500]

It’s so repulsive to see people cheering for what is basically 80% the same thing as the Holocaust - different end result but otherwise very similar.

Economists have said it would tank the economy and cause inflation - notwithstanding the cost.

Is it going to actually happen or is this Build The Wall 2.0?

 

[bird]

The issue is what is the mechanism for the government to stop and ask people for their ID? Basically what is the probable cause the government will need to have to essentially detain a person, and ask them to provide ID?

This is what I was referring to when I fear an erosion of our 4th amendment rights. During the whole BLM protests/riots - I had often said I wished the US would have as much commitment to the 4th amendment as we do the 1st and 2nd.

I think it would be far simpler to set up stiffer fines and penalties for people hiring people without proper documentation, and then allow that demand side to dry up.

Imo, we are not far from having to carry “papers” including internal passports.

 

[SystemShock]

The issue is what is the mechanism for the government to stop and ask people for their ID? Basically what is the probable cause the government will need to have to essentially detain a person, and ask them to provide ID?

Probable cause can be ascertained in different ways. There are mechanisms in place now, that have been around forever. I guess some people fear that individuals will be stopped while walking on the streets and be asked for ihre papiere at gun point, and whiskered to a work camp if they can't show proper ID.

Language is probably the most obvious probable cause. If someone has a foreign accent and/or doesn't speak English, it is a very reasonable assertion that they were not born in the U.S. (that's one of the factors MX immigration considers probable cause), and that asking for proper ID is reasonable as well.

I guess it could be piggybacked on DUI checkpoints, or do sting operations in places that are known to employ illegal immigrants or where illegal immigrants concentrate...

 

[SystemShock]

Are you okay going with the “Papers please” route?

Here come the Nazis...
There are already mechanisms in place, and more effective ways than stopping people on the streets and ask for ihre papiere.

Are you okay with some people inevitably being asked to produce their ID on a regular basis, possibly daily or weekly?

That'd be a pain in the arse, but a small price to pay for escaping cartels and poverty, no?

How is that much different than the cops pulling over a black guy in a nice car in a nice neighborhood?

“Just checking to make sure that this car really belongs to you and that you really belong in this neighborhood. If you have your license and registration what’s the problem?”

Or stop and frisk?

Again, I doubt they'd be stopping people on the streets, opting for sting operations, piggybacking ID checks on DUI checkpoints, etc.

“Show me your ID, just making sure you really belong in this country. But hey, if you have the proper documents what’s the problem?”

Well, yes. What's the problem with that? Again, when I was granted U.S. residence, I was told to keep my ID with me all the time in case I was asked for it by the authorities.

That constant suspicion and constantly justifying your presence, constantly validating your existence wears on your mind, body and soul

I wouldn't know.

And what happens when someone is accused of having a fake ID?

Has anyone ever thought of using a tattoo for ID?

For fork's sake. Stop it.
There are perfectly legal and constitutional ways of figuring out immigration status.

 

[Optimus Prime]

There are humane and empathetic ways of figuring it out and addressing the issue

Nothing about the way the right has spoken about immigrants led me to believe for one second they have any interest in doing so

Listening to the way they've demonized them has led me to believe that they want it to be as aggressive and confrontational as possible (and their base wants it to be)

and you're never going to identify 10-12 million people with the mechanisms that are already in place

 

[SystemShock]

How will you prevent the abusive targeting of minorities?

As long as the law of the land is followed, I have no problems.

You're effectively advocating for a system that gives law enforcement unchecked power under the guise of ID checks.

No, I am absolutely not advocating for that.

What happens if a tall 14-year-old on their way to the store or playground is detained simply for forgetting their ID?

What happens if a short 14 yo on their way to the store or playground is detained simply for forgetting their ID?
I'd think verification of data?

How will you address the risk of police using this as a pretext to stop and question people without probable cause?

Police stopping you for any pretext in the U.S. is a daily occurrence that transcends ethnicities and social status. It happens to whites too, believe it or not.

Considering the low educational standards of some officers, this policy could easily become a tool for harassment and discrimination against minorities.

What do you mean by "low educational standards"?

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

Language is probably the most obvious probable cause. If someone has a foreign accent and/or doesn't speak English, it is a very reasonable assertion that they were not born in the U.S. (that's one of the factors MX immigration considers probable cause), and that asking for proper ID is reasonable as well.

I don't know man. That doesn't really sound reasonable to me. I know lots of legal immigrants with accents and speak their native languages amongst their family and friends. It seems unnecessarily burdensome to force them to prove that they're here legally whenever someone wants to based on their accent.

I guess it could be piggybacked on DUI checkpoints, or do sting operations in places that are known to employ illegal immigrants or where illegal immigrants concentrate...

This is probably more reasonable, provided there was some sort of research (and documentation), on how they do their analysis. Something like the parking lot of Home Depot of people looking for day work, especially in areas where they have vetted places for day workers already that they aren't using.

The point being, I'm against the government inconveniencing people based on race or language. If you do it on specific behaviors, that are not likely to regularly inconvenience American citizens, it's more likely to be "ok". I don't have faith that is the route we'll see.

 

[Dragon]

Police stopping you for any pretext in the U.S. is a daily occurrence that transcends ethnicities and social status. It happens to whites too, believe it or not.


What do you mean by "low educational standards"?

Well compared to Europe the education level of the police officers in the US is very low

In most US states this is what they require

A high school diploma or GED
18 Years old.
Police academy for 3-8 months followed by 3 month as a training officer

Compare this to Denmark

21 years old
At least Junior college or similar education wise
Police Academy for 2 years and 6 month followed by 1 year as a training officer

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

To further clarify my point - there are about 46 million immigrants in this country legally, and about 10 million not. Which means, if you're are just stopping people b/c they "seem" foreign - you are 4-5 times more likely to be stopping/detaining a legal resident than an illegal one.

This is both inefficient and burdensome to people who have done no wrong.

 

[fooferdoggie]

Imo, we are not far from having to carry “papers” including internal passports.

only if you're not white.

 

[Optimus Prime]

To further clarify my point - there are about 46 million immigrants in this country legally, and about 10 million not. Which means, if you're are just stopping people b/c they "seem" foreign - you are 4-5 times more likely to be stopping/detaining a legal resident than an illegal one.

This is both inefficient and burdensome to people who have done no wrong.

and burdensome is a spectrum ranging from inconvenient to ending up facedown on the pavement if they give any sassmouth because they are upset at getting stopped

 

[Lapaz]

Probable cause can be ascertained in different ways. There are mechanisms in place now, that have been around forever. I guess some people fear that individuals will be stopped while walking on the streets and be asked for ihre papiere at gun point, and whiskered to a work camp if they can't show proper ID.

Language is probably the most obvious probable cause. If someone has a foreign accent and/or doesn't speak English, it is a very reasonable assertion that they were not born in the U.S. (that's one of the factors MX immigration considers probable cause), and that asking for proper ID is reasonable as well.

I guess it could be piggybacked on DUI checkpoints, or do sting operations in places that are known to employ illegal immigrants or where illegal immigrants concentrate...

Not to work camps, but mass detention camps is the fear, because Trump himself hasn't ruled them out.

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/trump-does-not-rule-out-building-detention-camps-mass-deportations-2024-04-30/

Trump’s Massive Deportation Plan Echoes Concentration Camp History

Trump’s language about immigrants “poisoning” the U.S. repeats past rhetoric that led to civilian detention camps, with horrific, tragic results

www.scientificamerican.com

 

[Saint by the Bay]

Personally I think any interaction with law enforcement that doesn't start with "papers please" it's perfectly fine to establish citizenship as part of that interaction. I would add any requests for government services can include it.

I don't want a stop-and-frisk version of verifying citizenship, but I'm OK with it being tied to any variety of other interactions including medical care, traffic stops, and airline travel.

 

[J-DONK]

Not to work camps, but mass detention camps is the fear, because Trump himself hasn't ruled them out.

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/trump-does-not-rule-out-building-detention-camps-mass-deportations-2024-04-30/

Trump’s Massive Deportation Plan Echoes Concentration Camp History

Trump’s language about immigrants “poisoning” the U.S. repeats past rhetoric that led to civilian detention camps, with horrific, tragic results

www.scientificamerican.com

Declaring a national emergency to use the military to do it as well.

Also, what happens to all these people's property?

 

[MT15]

Oh, great….

 

[bird]

Declaring a national emergency to use the military to do it as well.

Also, what happens to all these people's property?

Why, the Orange Idiot’s cronies will hoover them up.

 

[MT15]

TX is offering up 1400 acres for a camp.

 

[superchuck500]

“The moment Trump puts his hand on that Bible the occupation ends, liberation day begins.”

 

[superchuck500]

Personally I think any interaction with law enforcement that doesn't start with "papers please" it's perfectly fine to establish citizenship as part of that interaction. I would add any requests for government services can include it.

I don't want a stop-and-frisk version of verifying citizenship, but I'm OK with it being tied to any variety of other interactions including medical care, traffic stops, and airline travel.

There’s no immigration exception to probable cause in theory, but in reality it’s hard to see how a wrongful stop or detention ends up helping an illegal. The judge can find the initial interaction lacked probable cause but the crime is one of ongoing status, so it doesn’t really change anything for the person if that initial stop/detention lacked probable cause. It may open up some civil liability but beyond that it might as well not exist.

I know that I can’t prove my citizenship in a traffic stop - unless thats part of the information on my record pulled by the police computer. Noncitizens can have drivers licenses.

But I still stand by the point that this program at the level/volume being proposed will be a moral stain on this nation for generations . . . and deeply, fundamentally unChristian.