What happens to the Republican Party now? (1 Viewer)

[MT15]

This election nonsense by Trump may end up splitting up the Republican Party. I just don’t see how the one third (?) who are principled conservatives can stay in the same party with Trump sycophants who are willing to sign onto the TX Supreme Court case.

We also saw the alt right types chanting “destroy the GOP” in Washington today because they didn’t keep Trump in power. I think the Q types will also hold the same ill will toward the traditional Republican Party. In fact its quite possible that all the voters who are really in a Trump personality cult will also blame the GOP for his loss. It’s only a matter of time IMO before Trump himself gets around to blaming the GOP.

There is some discussion of this on Twitter. What do you all think?

 

[MT15]

Lol.

Hitlers rise to power can be attributed to several factors (Germany’s distaste for the Treaty of Versailles, a floundering economy, a flailing government, etc.), but this can’t be laid at the feet of a 3rd party candidate.

Every election cycle since I have been voting (2000), voters from both parties have said “this isn’t the year to throw your vote away on a 3rd party candidate.” Yet here we are 22 years later, and Washington has only gotten worse.

How Did Adolf Hitler Happen? | The National WWII Museum | New Orleans

Adolf Hitler was appointed chancellor of Germany in 1933 following a series of electoral victories by the Nazi Party. He ruled absolutely until his death by suicide in April 1945.

www.nationalww2museum.org

My point is that Hitler came to power with a minority of the popular vote, about 37% IIRC. This was possible because there were 3 fairly equally divided political parties. Once he gained power, he crushed their democracy and became a dictator. This is the danger of having a third party that splits up the normal people when there is a crazy party.

 

[el caliente]

My point is that Hitler came to power with a minority of the popular vote, about 37% IIRC. This was possible because there were 3 fairly equally divided political parties. Once he gained power, he crushed their democracy and became a dictator. This is the danger of having a third party that splits up the normal people when there is a crazy party.

That math just ain’t mathing. Hitler won the 33’ election with ~44% of the vote. 3 equally divided parties? The top 3 parties that year won ~44%, ~18%, and ~12%. That’s not incredibly equal. Heck, the Germans would have had to net together the next top 4 vote getters in order to avoid Hitler.

March 1933 German federal election - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It wasn’t a matter of the 3rd, 4th or 5th candidate spoiling things for Germany, it was a matter of people living in horrible conditions.

I don’t even know where Brandon got started with this Hitler/Stallin comparison anyway. Do people like Brandon think Trump/MGT are Hitler/Biden? The government just ain’t governmenting if so.

 

[DaveXA]

Are Trump/MGT supposed to be the Hitler/Stalin?

If it comes down to Trump/MGT or Biden/Harris, I’ll vote 3rd party.

That's certainly your right. I respectfully disagree because I'd much rather another 4 years of Biden than deal with another Trump administration. I'm already on record that I'll leave the country if Trump gets elected again. I'm completely serious on that point.

 

[SteveSBrickNJ]

What a waste of time talking about Hitler. Why would someone want to try to corner another person over Hitler. Can we please focus on 2022 and stop making ridiculous analogies?

 

[el caliente]

That's certainly your right. I respectfully disagree because I'd much rather another 4 years of Biden than deal with another Trump administration. Thank I'm already on record that I'll leave the country if Trump gets elected again. I'm completely serious on that point.

And I respect your (and anyone else’s) right to vote for who they choose. I’m certainly not going to call anyone’s vote a waste. I don’t know why people say those things.

Hell, if my vote for a 3rd party candidate leads to 4 more years of Trump, then I will help you pack.

 

[brandon]

But I did answer your question. Are zombie Hitler and zombie Stallin on the ticket vs Biden/Harris? No.

If it comes down to Trump/MGT (or any of his spineless acolytes) vs Biden/Harris, I’ll just vote 3rd part (again).

I don’t even know where Brandon got started with this Hitler/Stallin comparison anyway. Do people like Brandon think Trump/MGT are Hitler/Biden? The government just ain’t governmenting if so.

The point was that voting for a third party instead of doing what is actually helpful in defeating autocracy is a cop out, and implies that you believe the worst Republican is still better than the best democrat. And I was trying to assess if there was any limit to your anti-Democrat position by giving you an obviously absurd option versus a democrat.

And you still couldn’t bring yourself to say “of course I would vote for the democrat if Hitler/Stalin was the other option”.

That’s so sadly telling.

 

[SteveSBrickNJ]

The point was that voting for a third party instead of doing what is actually helpful in defeating autocracy is a cop out, and implies that you believe the worst Republican is still better than the best democrat. And I was trying to assess if there was any limit to your anti-Democrat position by giving you an obviously absurd option versus a democrat.

And you still couldn’t bring yourself to say “of course I would vote for the democrat if Hitler/Stalin was the other option”.

That’s so sadly telling.

Don't tell people their vote is a "cop out".
No one owes it to you or America to vote the way you think they should.
Hitler stuff is stupid.
"Cop out" stuff is stupid.

 

[MT15]

That math just ain’t mathing. Hitler won the 33’ election with ~44% of the vote. 3 equally divided parties? The top 3 parties that year won ~44%, ~18%, and ~12%. That’s not incredibly equal. Heck, the Germans would have had to net together the next top 4 vote getters in order to avoid Hitler.

March 1933 German federal election - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It wasn’t a matter of the 3rd, 4th or 5th candidate spoiling things for Germany, it was a matter of people living in horrible conditions.

I don’t even know where Brandon got started with this Hitler/Stallin comparison anyway. Do people like Brandon think Trump/MGT are Hitler/Biden? The government just ain’t governmenting if so.

your math is irrelevant to the point (37 vs 44 doesn’t invalidate the point).

Hitler came to power with less than a majority. This is only possible with multiple political parties breaking up the normal people. The conditions are a factor, of course, but the most important factor is that multiple parties broke up normal people’s vote, which had they coalesced behind a single second candidate, would have kept Hitler out of power. Once he got into power, they lost their democracy.

A lot of people have made the judgement, having seen how hard Trump tried to overturn the 2020 presidential election and how many Republicans just eagerly helped him, that if Trump were to win a second term we will also lose our democracy. You can disagree, but to just dismiss this out of hand is foolish.

 

[el caliente]

The point was that voting for a third party instead of doing what is actually helpful in defeating autocracy is a cop out, and implies that you believe the worst Republican is still better than the best democrat. And I was trying to assess if there was any limit to your anti-Democrat position by giving you an obviously absurd option versus a democrat.

And you still couldn’t bring yourself to say “of course I would vote for the democrat if Hitler/Stalin was the other option”.

That’s so sadly telling.

I’m sorry that you don’t value everyone’s freedom to choose. I would never tell you that your vote was a cop out.

I find it odd that you would say that I am anti-Democrat. I don’t believe we know each other outside of this site, so I am not sure where you gained this personal insight about my voting patterns. Since 2000 I have voted for Democrats twice, and Republicans twice. It wasn’t until these last two election cycles that I voted third party. I feel that my vote should reflect my interests first, and be personal to me. I feel your vote should reflect your interests. Who are we to tell anyone how they should vote when it’s a personal choice?

 

[cuddlemonkey]

Don't tell people their vote is a "cop out".
No one owes it to you or America to vote the way you think they should.
Hitler stuff is stupid.
"Cop out" stuff is stupid.

No, they owe it to themselves and America to protect the foundation upon which this country was built. The GOP is unwilling to do that. If voting for a Democrat is the best chance to stop the GOP from taking power, then voting for a Democrat is the best way to protect our country, period.

 

[GrandAdmiral]

The point was that voting for a third party instead of doing what is actually helpful in defeating autocracy is a cop out, and implies that you believe the worst Republican is still better than the best democrat. And I was trying to assess if there was any limit to your anti-Democrat position by giving you an obviously absurd option versus a democrat.

And you still couldn’t bring yourself to say “of course I would vote for the democrat if Hitler/Stalin was the other option”.

That’s so sadly telling.

Some people are just stubborn/ignorant/stupid/whatever in the whole "I could never vote for a Democrat/Republican" rhetoric. It's dumb. But in this matter, I agree with @el caliente here. In 2016, I didn't vote for Hillary. I voted third party. Why? Because HRC was a terrible candidate. There was no way I was voting Trump. But the important truth folks sometimes fail to see is that unless you're in a swing state, with presidential politics, sometimes your vote doesn't matter with the final results.

Say I do vote HRC. Let's say every other person in Louisiana who voted third party does the same thing. It doesn't matter. Donald Trump still wins the state and the electors to the College with 58% of the vote. I don't feel my vote was wasted, however, because I used it to tell my party that they forked up by nominating the wrong candidate by planting my vote elsewhere.

Now, if by chance Louisiana was a swing state, no doubt I would've swallowed my pride, held my breath, and voted for HRC.

Presidential politics isn't a popularity contest, unfortunately. If that be the case, both Al Gore and HRC would have been president. It's an antiquated system that needs to be put to rest. Unfortunately, it won't.

 

[el caliente]

your math is irrelevant to the point (37 vs 44 doesn’t invalidate the point).

Hitler came to power with less than a majority. This is only possible with multiple political parties breaking up the normal people. The conditions are a factor, of course, but the most important factor is that multiple parties broke up normal people’s vote, which had they coalesced behind a single second candidate, would have kept Hitler out of power. Once he got into power, they lost their democracy.

A lot of people have made the judgement, having seen how hard Trump tried to overturn the 2020 presidential election and how many Republicans just eagerly helped him, that if Trump were to win a second term we will also lose our democracy. You can disagree, but to just dismiss this out of hand is foolish.

Your math still isn’t mathing. ~12% of the population sat that election cycle out. Your blaming a straw man (3rd party voters) for why Hitler won, and not focusing on the socioeconomic environment at the time (or even the second party’s lack of a message for voters to get behind).

In my brief voting existence I can confidently say that the “we will lose our Democracy if ____ Republican is elected” is the Democrats counter to the Republicans “if ____ Democrat wins they will take your guns away.” I’m too old to keep believing in these boogie men.

 

[el caliente]

Some people are just stubborn/ignorant/stupid/whatever in the whole "I could never vote for a Democrat/Republican" rhetoric. It's dumb. But in this matter, I agree with @el caliente here. In 2016, I didn't vote for Hillary. I voted third party. Why? Because HRC was a terrible candidate. There was no way I was voting Trump. But the important truth folks sometimes fail to see is that unless you're in a swing state, with presidential politics, sometimes your vote doesn't matter with the final results.

Say I do vote HRC. Let's say every other person in Louisiana who voted third party does the same thing. It doesn't matter. Donald Trump still wins the state and the electors to the College with 58% of the vote. I don't feel my vote was wasted, however, because I used it to tell my party that they forked up by nominating the wrong candidate by planting my vote elsewhere.

Now, if by chance Louisiana was a swing state, no doubt I would've swallowed my pride, held my breath, and voted for HRC.

Presidential politics isn't a popularity contest, unfortunately. If that be the case, both Al Gore and HRC would have been president. It's an antiquated system that be put to rest. Unfortunately, it won't.

Agreed. I live in Texas, I could write in Howard Hughes Ghost, and my vote wouldn’t matter.

I would be in favor of removing the EC (not El Caliente), but that probably isn’t in the cards (at least not any time soon).

 

[MT15]

I definitely get that everyone has the right to cast their vote however they wish. But, sometimes elections swing without warning. Look at the Kansas referendum last night. The only poll I saw indicated that the YES vote was ahead 48-40 or something like that. Well, it broke nearly 60-40 the other way. I feel strongly enough that Trump is dead set against us having free and fair elections that I will always vote for the democrat who opposes him. I’m taking no chances.

Your math still isn’t mathing. ~12% of the population sat that election cycle out. Your blaming a straw man (3rd party voters) for why Hitler won, and not focusing on the socioeconomic environment at the time (or even the second party’s lack of a message for voters to get behind).

In my brief voting existence I can confidently say that the “we will lose our Democracy if ____ Republican is elected” is the Democrats counter to the Republicans “if ____ Democrat wins they will take your guns away.” I’m too old to keep believing in these boogie men.

You cannot count the people who don’t vote. The ONLY way Hitler wins with less than 51% of the vote is if there are multiple parties. That’s just a fact. If there are only 2 candidates it’s impossible to win with 44% of the vote.

The fact that you are spinning this hard to deny the obvious truth here should tell you something.

I agree with you about the EC. It already gives us presidents who didn’t win the popular vote. IMO we are playing with fire by continuing to use it.

 

[brandon]

Don't tell people their vote is a "cop out".
No one owes it to you or America to vote the way you think they should.
Hitler stuff is stupid.
"Cop out" stuff is stupid.

Fine. Voting 3rd party in the upcoming election if Trump is on the ticket is tacit support for autocracy.

Better?

I’m sorry that you don’t value everyone’s freedom to choose. I would never tell you that your vote was a cop out.

I find it odd that you would say that I am anti-Democrat. I don’t believe we know each other outside of this site, so I am not sure where you gained this personal insight about my voting patterns. Since 2000 I have voted for Democrats twice, and Republicans twice. It wasn’t until these last two election cycles that I voted third party. I feel that my vote should reflect my interests first, and be personal to me. I feel your vote should reflect your interests. Who are we to tell anyone how they should vote when it’s a personal choice?

My vote isn't a cop out because I recognize the threat a Trump/MTG ticket would be to the foundations of our country, based on the overwhelming evidence that both have no qualms about throwing democracy out the window in their pursuit of power.

My voting history is 4 Dem to 2 Republican, so I've been on the other side of the aisle, too. And in any other election, if you want to waste your vote on a third party, go nuts. I don't care.

But if Trump/MTG is the ticket and you vote 3rd party, you're not doing everything you can to protect the country from sliding into autocracy. As an American, I believe it's my duty to tell you how to vote if one of the tickets is Hitler/Stalin, and I feel only slightly less adamant that as an American, it's my duty to tell you how to vote if one of the tickets is Trump/MTG.

You don't have to listen. But you do have to come to grips with the fact that you're aiding the destruction of democracy in America. Sorry if that makes you uncomfortable, but that's the truth.

Some people are just stubborn/ignorant/stupid/whatever in the whole "I could never vote for a Democrat/Republican" rhetoric. It's dumb. But in this matter, I agree with @el caliente here. In 2016, I didn't vote for Hillary. I voted third party. Why? Because HRC was a terrible candidate. There was no way I was voting Trump. But the important truth folks sometimes fail to see is that unless you're in a swing state, with presidential politics, sometimes your vote doesn't matter with the final results.

Say I do vote HRC. Let's say every other person in Louisiana who voted third party does the same thing. It doesn't matter. Donald Trump still wins the state and the electors to the College with 58% of the vote. I don't feel my vote was wasted, however, because I used it to tell my party that they forked up by nominating the wrong candidate by planting my vote elsewhere.

Now, if by chance Louisiana was a swing state, no doubt I would've swallowed my pride, held my breath, and voted for HRC.

Presidential politics isn't a popularity contest, unfortunately. If that be the case, both Al Gore and HRC would have been president. It's an antiquated system that needs to be put to rest. Unfortunately, it won't.

If you voted 3rd party in 2016 because Hillary was a terrible candidate, I can deal with it. I think it was still a poor choice, but at least in 2016 you maybe didn't understand fully what you were getting into.

Now? There's no excuse.

 

[ktulu909]

Some people are just stubborn/ignorant/stupid/whatever in the whole "I could never vote for a Democrat/Republican" rhetoric. It's dumb. But in this matter, I agree with @el caliente here. In 2016, I didn't vote for Hillary. I voted third party. Why? Because HRC was a terrible candidate. There was no way I was voting Trump. But the important truth folks sometimes fail to see is that unless you're in a swing state, with presidential politics, sometimes your vote doesn't matter with the final results.

Say I do vote HRC. Let's say every other person in Louisiana who voted third party does the same thing. It doesn't matter. Donald Trump still wins the state and the electors to the College with 58% of the vote. I don't feel my vote was wasted, however, because I used it to tell my party that they forked up by nominating the wrong candidate by planting my vote elsewhere.

Now, if by chance Louisiana was a swing state, no doubt I would've swallowed my pride, held my breath, and voted for HRC.

Presidential politics isn't a popularity contest, unfortunately. If that be the case, both Al Gore and HRC would have been president. It's an antiquated system that needs to be put to rest. Unfortunately, it won't.

Same. Voted Gary twice.

 

[DaveXA]

Fine. Voting 3rd party in the upcoming election if Trump is on the ticket is tacit support for autocracy.

Better?


My vote isn't a cop out because I recognize the threat a Trump/MTG ticket would be to the foundations of our country, based on the overwhelming evidence that both have no qualms about throwing democracy out the window in their pursuit of power.

My voting history is 4 Dem to 2 Republican, so I've been on the other side of the aisle, too. And in any other election, if you want to waste your vote on a third party, go nuts. I don't care.

But if Trump/MTG is the ticket and you vote 3rd party, you're not doing everything you can to protect the country from sliding into autocracy. As an American, I believe it's my duty to tell you how to vote if one of the tickets is Hitler/Stalin, and I feel only slightly less adamant that as an American, it's my duty to tell you how to vote if one of the tickets is Trump/MTG.

You don't have to listen. But you do have to come to grips with the fact that you're aiding the destruction of democracy in America. Sorry if that makes you uncomfortable, but that's the truth.



If you voted 3rd party in 2016 because Hillary was a terrible candidate, I can deal with it. I think it was still a poor choice, but at least in 2016 you maybe didn't understand fully what you were getting into.

Now? There's no excuse.

I'll just say that if you're not in a swing state, it doesn't really matter. Vote 3rd party in that case. Both the Democratic and Republican Party leave a lot to be desired, so not voting for the status quo is sensible.

On the other hand, if you're in a swing state, the odds are higher that your vote matters and thus voting for the candidate who doesn't want to destroy American politics as we know it is the sensible choice.

Being that I live in Virginia, it's a closely contested state, so I'm inclined to lodge my protest vote with the Democrat because I feel voting 3rd party makes it more likely for Trump to win.

 

[brandon]

I'll just say that if you're not in a swing state, it doesn't really matter.

It's a matter of conscience. It's about doing everything you can, even if futile, to save democracy in America.