Trump loyalists in Congress to challenge Electoral College results in Jan. 6 joint session (Update: Insurrectionists storm Congress)(And now what?) (2 Viewers)

[superchuck500]

I guess it's time to start a thread for this. We know that at least 140 members of Congress have pledged to join the objection. Under federal law, if at least one member of each house (HOR and Senate) objects, each house will adjourn the joint session for their own session (limited at two hours) to take up the objection. If both houses pass a resolution objecting to the EC result, further action can take place. If both houses do not (i.e. if one or neither passes a resolution), the objection is powerless and the college result is certified.

Clearly this is political theater as we know such a resolution will not pass the House, and there's good reason to think it wouldn't pass the Senate either (with or without the two senators from Georgia). The January 6 joint session is traditionally a ceremonial one. This one will not be.

Many traditional pillars of Republican support have condemned the plan as futile and damaging. Certainly the Trump loyalists don't care - and many are likely doing it for fundraising purposes or to carry weight with the fraction of their constituencies that think this is a good idea.

https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RL32717.pdf

 

[barbar]

It is an interesting question. For example if I was very poor and at the bottom I would want socialism because I have nothing to lose and I am already at the bottom. However, if i was middle class and above I would certainly worry.

I am 100% for free tuition in public universities as long as the education is offered to those that are academically qualified. In America we have a plethora of superficial crapola college degrees that are designed to attract marginal students. These kids borrow money and then cannot find a job. The system was designed to milk the easy to obtain tuition loans available to all. The idea is that all kids could go to college and that is a mistake. In Germany and Japan those that are not college material receive a trade education and that works best because at least there is a job waiting.




Here is the problem with free college: Watch this kid type asking Amy Klobuchar for free college tuition for all. including illegal immigrants, and people in prison. This is way too idealistic.


There are many purists in America that admire Cuba and Venezuela. However, that is another story!
America could easily have Medicare for all and it would be way more cheap. It odes not happen because the donors control Washington. And that includes left leaning Democrats.

Ahh I think you are missing the point. The health care system MUST be good because everyone has equal access and equal benefits. That is the whole point! That means the poor and the rich have the same coverage and access to care. Believe me if the care sucks the rich are gonna cry screaming. So the system has to be good enough to please the rich. And the poor benefit because they get the same coverage.

I am American, but I live in Germany and generally speaking what they are doing here works. I got my engineering degree here at zero cost even though i am a foreigner. It was even taught in English. Now I am working in Munich as an FPGA engineer and trying to improve my German language(much harder than engineering BTW) and find a rock band to play in.

Of course it isn't perfect. Nowhere is....and then let's also say....the elder generation people are not that friendly. They can be downright prickly and they always cut in front of you in line and look at you like "don't say a word I have earned this" haha. After 38 years in the USA it is like a breath of fresh air to live here, though. I was upper middle class in the USA and the public health care is MUUUUUCH better than what I ever had in the states even when I had a gold plan. Like....it's not even close. And I pay much less for it.The doctors are mostly amazing and seem to care about my overall well being....not just throwing medications at the symptoms. Saving up money for a health care emergency is just not a thing for me anymore. I havent thought about a medical bill in years.

Ok the education issue, can't we first agree that all qualified American citizens should receive an education paid for by the state up to the bachelor degree or trade school level? It seems like we do agree on that and it's a great place to start. Of course that is a bigger conversation because grade school needs a complete top to bottom overhaul as well.

Man we are way off the rails here. I usually try and keep threads on topic. Sorry guys and gals and thanks again Paul.

 

[barbar]

Marginal students are all of those people who should be going to community college and either getting their crap together by learning to be a better student or learning a trade. And the free community college Biden is providing allows them not to ruin their lives with debt to do it.

Education is the key to a better life, whether that education is academic or a skill.

Marginal students need a way to get out of poverty, too.

Community college is awesome BTW. I had an excellent experience at Red Rocks community college in Denver. Fantastic and enthusiastic teachers over there. I have an associate of science degree from there.

 

[Optimus Prime]

Never forget the officers who were at the Capitol
============
More than six months after Police Sgt. Aquilino Gonell battled the mob that stormed the Capitol, he remains hobbled, a hand scarred, a shoulder aching, recovering from surgery to an injured foot that swelled so large it no longer fit his shoe.


The 42-year-old Capitol Police officer and Army reservist is also seeing a therapist to help with post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD), first diagnosed after he served in the war in Iraq.


He said bouts of anxiety returned after his battle on American soil in the Jan. 6 riot.
“I can be fine now and see or hear something and next thing I get tears and get emotional,” said Gonell, who was hurt when rioters tried to yank away his ballistic shield, threw a speaker at him, struck him in the face with a pole and sprayed him with chemical irritants.


“I tried to be strong,” he said of the months following the riot. “I tried not to show my emotion.” But once, he said, he retreated to a quiet space at his home in Virginia, away from his wife and 9-year-old son: “I completely broke down.”


In the aftermath of the riot, authorities said about 140 Capitol and D.C. police officers were hurt when supporters of President Donald Trump stormed the Capitol in a failed effort to overturn Joe Biden’s election victory.

Police were bludgeoned with poles and bats, pushed and trampled, and sprayed with chemical irritants………

But the full toll on police is still coming into view as officers continue to grapple with the impact of hours of hand-to-hand fighting.

They have emerged with a complex jumble of physical and emotional trauma that has made diagnoses and treatment challenging, a problem some officers said is made more difficult by efforts of Republican lawmakers to downplay the riot.


Some officers who were assaulted Jan. 6 experienced different or worsening symptoms in the weeks and months that followed, indicating they may have suffered injuries more severe than had initially been believed, in particular undiagnosed head trauma, according to a therapist who has seen hundreds of D.C. officers.

She thinks others who emerged exhausted and sore may not have reported injuries, or even recognized they needed medical care………

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/capitol-riot-police-injuries-trauma/2021/07/23/e008f0f0-d8d8-11eb-9bbb-37c30dcf9363_story.html

 

[Paul]

Ahh I think you are missing the point. The health care system MUST be good because everyone has equal access and equal benefits. That is the whole point! That means the poor and the rich have the same coverage and access to care. Believe me if the care sucks the rich are gonna cry screaming. So the system has to be good enough to please the rich. And the poor benefit because they get the same coverage.

The problem is not the care. The problem is the insurance system. I support Medicare for all. As of now Medicare only insures the elderly and the disabled. Medicare does not have young healthy people in the pool. The young are insured by private companies. These companies do not provide care. They simply collect premiums form the patients, pay the medical expenses, and the rest is profit. All they do is handle the money. This is not capitalism at all. These people do not create wealth or do any innovation. They just handle the money with the blessing of congress. This is crony capitalism.

I am American, but I live in Germany and generally speaking what they are doing here works. I got my engineering degree here at zero cost even though i am a foreigner. It was even taught in English. Now I am working in Munich as an FPGA engineer and trying to improve my German language(much harder than engineering BTW) and find a rock band to play in.

Germany was the cradle of physics and engineering in the late 19th century and early 20th century. As a kid I remember that the best cameras, stereos, medical equipment, and automobiles were German. It was a tradition for gifted Americans to study in Germany in that era, congratulations.

What do they do in Germany with Kids that are not university material?

Good luck in finding a rock band. Rock is dead. It is hard to find a good modern rock song with a guitar solo.

Of course it isn't perfect. Nowhere is....and then let's also say....the elder generation people are not that friendly. They can be downright prickly and they always cut in front of you in line and look at you like "don't say a word I have earned this" haha. After 38 years in the USA it is like a breath of fresh air to live here, though. I was upper middle class in the USA and the public health care is MUUUUUCH better than what I ever had in the states even when I had a gold plan. Like....it's not even close. And I pay much less for it.The doctors are mostly amazing and seem to care about my overall well being....not just throwing medications at the symptoms. Saving up money for a health care emergency is just not a thing for me anymore. I havent thought about a medical bill in years.

You are using the wealthiest nation in Europe with a low fraction of poverty as the standard of reference.

Ok the education issue, can't we first agree that all qualified American citizens should receive an education paid for by the state up to the bachelor degree or trade school level? It seems like we do agree on that and it's a great place to start. Of course that is a bigger conversation because grade school needs a complete top to bottom overhaul as well.

As long as they are qualified yes. However, over here they seem to think anyone can be an engineer or a rocket scientist. Many go to college to study salsa dancing or other meaningless mayor. I suspect they do not do that in Germany.

Lastly, giving free education to kids that come from very poor drug infested homes does not work. The reason East Asians and Indian immigrants are well above (education and income) all other groups is having a solid home that promotes academics.

 

[DaveXA]

 

[Dragon]

Lastly, giving free education to kids that come from very poor drug infested homes does not work. The reason East Asians and Indian immigrants are well above (education and income) all other groups is having a solid home that promotes academics.

Talent is not decided by what kind of an environment a kid has grown up in! And a free education should be the right of every young person! Especially those who comes from a bad home environment!

The German educational system is not very different from the Danish.

In Denmark we have entry level school from Kindergarden to 9th grade. After 9th grade the students can chose to either stay in grammar school for another year (usually if they need better grades or don't really know what they want to do with their life), go to a high school focused on Academics or go to a Trade School (Economics, Business or Technical) for 2-3 years. Those going to the Academics high school will be able to enter university after 3 years

Those going to a trade school will have to chose after two years whether to get a trainee position or an apprenticeship or change to Academics and do two more years specializing within their fields (business or Engineering)

The School Career advisor follows EVERY student until the age of 25 if they don't complete an education of some kind. If a student has dropped out the Advisor has multiple ways of helping that person get back on track. That includes an academic mentor for those with certain disabilies like dyslexia to help them complete the trade school or subsidized apprenticeships. The goal being that everyone should learn some kind of trade - be it baker or professor.

And those ressources are very well spend! It is an investment in our future. Every child lost is the loss of a productive (and tax paying) citizent.

 

[Paul]

Talent is not decided by what kind of an environment a kid has grown up in!

OK, so what makes a child academically successful? Honestly, I thought having a great home with two parents that are dedicated to the kids was the best scenario.

And a free education should be the right of every young person! Especially those who comes from a bad home environment!

High school all over America is free. And yet in some cities, the graduation rate is 70%. That means 30% drop out. What is the point of a free education if 30% cannot graduate. Or worse those that graduate do not master the basics. Why not tackle the poverty at home and the lack of solid parents.

The German educational system is not very different from the Danish.

In Denmark we have entry level school from Kindergarden to 9th grade. After 9th grade the students can chose to either stay in grammar school for another year (usually if they need better grades or don't really know what they want to do with their life), go to a high school focused on Academics or go to a Trade School (Economics, Business or Technical) for 2-3 years. Those going to the Academics high school will be able to enter university after 3 years

Those going to a trade school will have to chose after two years whether to get a trainee position or an apprenticeship or change to Academics and do two more years specializing within their fields (business or Engineering)

The School Career advisor follows EVERY student until the age of 25 if they don't complete an education of some kind. If a student has dropped out the Advisor has multiple ways of helping that person get back on track. That includes an academic mentor for those with certain disabilies like dyslexia to help them complete the trade school or subsidized apprenticeships. The goal being that everyone should learn some kind of trade - be it baker or professor.

And those ressources are very well spend! It is an investment in our future. Every child lost is the loss of a productive (and tax paying) citizent.

That works in Denmark. In America many kids come form suboptimal homes where education is not a priority. The schools are free and of good quality, but it is difficult to educated those kids. Meanwhile the kids from East Asian and Indian immigrants have parents that are motivated and engaged and hence the kids succeed.

 

[Bigdaddysaints]

The national average for high school drop out is much lower than you think it is. Sure there may be some areas with higher rates. So if the drop out rate for HS is 5-8%, i wouldn't consider that as a deterrent for offering free college education.

 

[Dragon]

OK, so what makes a child academically successful? Honestly, I thought having a great home with two parents that are dedicated to the kids was the best scenario.

High school all over America is free. And yet in some cities, the graduation rate is 70%. That means 30% drop out. What is the point of a free education if 30% cannot graduate. Or worse those that graduate do not master the basics. Why not tackle the poverty at home and the lack of solid parents.

That works in Denmark. In America many kids come form suboptimal homes where education is not a priority. The schools are free and of good quality, but it is difficult to educated those kids. Meanwhile the kids from East Asian and Indian immigrants have parents that are motivated and engaged and hence the kids succeed.

So your argument is that because a kid comes from a sup-optimal home environment they should not be given the same rigths as every other kid???

Instead of condeming that kid to manual labor how about actually helping that kid succeed. I don't subscribe to a "master class" and a "sub class" of citizents and implementing something like that would waste a whole lot of really valuable human ressources.

Instead try to focus on using ALL the human ressources in the best possible way. If tutoring is needed then provide it. If someone is a very good mechanic , then ensure that he/she can get the support to learn a trade which matches talent and interests.. No child should be left behind just because they had bad parents!!

 

[brandon]

What is the point of a free education if 30% cannot graduate.

So the 70% can?

By the way, I work for a majority-minority Title I district with quite a bit of poverty. And one of our schools has a graduation rate of over 92%. You’re working with bad data.

That works in Denmark. In America many kids come form suboptimal homes where education is not a priority. The schools are free and of good quality, but it is difficult to educated those kids. Meanwhile the kids from East Asian and Indian immigrants have parents that are motivated and engaged and hence the kids succeed.

Sounds kinda racist, doesn’t it?

 

[Paul]

So your argument is that because a kid comes from a sup-optimal home environment they should not be given the same rigths as every other kid???

That is a straw man mate. I said let's tackle the poverty at home. Maybe you did not read that.

Instead of condeming that kid to manual labor how about actually helping that kid succeed. I don't subscribe to a "master class" and a "sub class" of citizents and implementing something like that would waste a whole lot of really valuable human ressources.

That is another straw man. No one condemning anyone to anything. By the way, in America the education system is run locally by the school board.

Dr. Sonja Santelises is Maryland’s highest-paid school superintendent. In 2020, she earned $339,000. That same year, City Schools’ graduation rate, for the first time in six years, dropped below 70 percent.

Baltimore City Schools graduation rate drops to six-year low

BALTIMORE (WBFF) - The success of any school, and its students, is often measured by graduation rates. If that is the case, Baltimore City Public Schools is going in the wrong direction. Data just released shows, for the second year in a row, graduation rates in City Schools have dropped and the...

foxbaltimore.com

There is a lot of poverty in many American cities. This problem needs to be solved first.

Instead try to focus on using ALL the human ressources in the best possible way. If tutoring is needed then provide it. If someone is a very good mechanic , then ensure that he/she can get the support to learn a trade which matches talent and interests.. No child should be left behind just because they had bad parents!!

Americans have been trying to do that for years with programs such as Head Start and no child left behind. You are proposing more of the same, but I do not blame you since you live in Europe.

I have included the definition of straw man below:

noun: strawman

1. 1.
   an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent's real argument.

 

[Paul]

The national average for high school drop out is much lower than you think it is. Sure there may be some areas with higher rates. So if the drop out rate for HS is 5-8%, i wouldn't consider that as a deterrent for offering free college education.

30% rate is Baltimore. And the woman in charge makes 330 k a year for driving the number down.

The drop out rate should be near zero in a developed nation like America.

By the way high school is free. Making college free does not solve the issue of poor education.

 

[Paul]

I will be happy to start a thread about education. This is not the theme of this thread.

 

[Bigdaddysaints]

Americans have been trying to do that for years with programs such as Head Start and no child left behind. You are proposing more of the same, but I do not blame you since you live in Europe.

In my Parish, head start or preK (whatever you want to call it) is extremely limited. Majority of kids that need it and qualify won't be accepted because of limited classrooms. And is only available at a few of the primary schools out of the 20 in the parish. If its like that here, i'm pretty sure its like that in most places. Kind of like bandaid for a bullet wound type of situation.

 

[Paul]

In my Parish, head start or preK (whatever you want to call it) is extremely limited. Majority of kids that need it and qualify won't be accepted because of limited classrooms. And is only available at a few of the primary schools out of the 20 in the parish. If its like that here, i'm pretty sure its like that in most places. Kind of like bandaid for a bullet wound type of situation.

Head start has some positive effects in child development, but they seem to vanish as the kids grow up. Head start cannot be a substitute for a healthy home with two parents that are involved.

While Head Start participation benefited children’s learning and development during their time in the federally funded preschool program, those advantages had mostly vanished by the end of 3rd grade, a new federal study finds.

In the final phase of a large-scale randomized, controlled study of nearly 5,000 children, researchers found that the positive impacts on literacy and language development demonstrated by children who entered Head Start at age 4 had dissipated by the end of 3rd grade, and that they were, on average, academically indistinguishable from their peers who had not participated in Head Start.

Head Start Advantages Mostly Gone by 3rd Grade, Study Finds

A national evaluation of Head Start found that the early learning advantages displayed by children who participated in the federally funded preschool program had mostly disappeared by the end of 3rd grade.

www.edweek.org

 

[Dragon]

Head start has some positive effects in child development, but they seem to vanish as the kids grow up. Head start cannot be a substitute for a healthy home with two parents that are involved.

While Head Start participation benefited children’s learning and development during their time in the federally funded preschool program, those advantages had mostly vanished by the end of 3rd grade, a new federal study finds.

In the final phase of a large-scale randomized, controlled study of nearly 5,000 children, researchers found that the positive impacts on literacy and language development demonstrated by children who entered Head Start at age 4 had dissipated by the end of 3rd grade, and that they were, on average, academically indistinguishable from their peers who had not participated in Head Start.

Head Start Advantages Mostly Gone by 3rd Grade, Study Finds

A national evaluation of Head Start found that the early learning advantages displayed by children who participated in the federally funded preschool program had mostly disappeared by the end of 3rd grade.

www.edweek.org

The problem with head start as I see it is that it ends with pre-school. Why? A child does not suddenly get a better home environment because they start first grade?

 

[Paul]

The problem with head start as I see it is that it ends with pre-school. Why? A child does not suddenly get a better home environment because they start first grade?

The purpose of head start was to give poor children the same advantages children from engaged intact families have. You make a good point, once the kid starts to grow up he still has a crappy home environment. That is why I always say America needs a plan to fix the homes of poor people. Two engaged parents will do wonders.

 

[Dragon]

The purpose of head start was to give poor children the same advantages children from engaged intact families have. You make a good point, once the kid starts to grow up he still has a crappy home environment. That is why I always say America needs a plan to fix the homes of poor people. Two engaged parents will do wonders.

You are generalizing a lot. Poor people or single parents does not equal a bad home environment, nor does an affluent two parent home equal a good one. Abusive home environments can be found in all layers of society. Some of the most engaged parents I know are single parents (male and female)

But you are right - lets move this discussion to another thread