The Voting Thread (Procedures, Turnout, Legal Challenges)(Update: Trump to file suit in PA, MI, WI, AZ, NV, GA) (3 Viewers)

[Lapaz]

There is a lot of push-back from Trump on voting by mail, but most states allow it, and 1/3 allow it without any excuse. His rationale is that it will lead to vast fraud, but of course that isn't his real reason. His real reason is that he thinks it will be worse for conservatives, but studies have shown that states that have instituted much broader voting by mail haven't had any statistical changes in party voting.

Stanford study: Mail voting doesn't benefit one party over another

Coronavirus-spurred limits have intensified a push to allow more mail balloting in November.

www.politico.com

Voting Outside the Polling Place: Absentee, All-Mail and other Voting at Home Options

Most states offer at least one method for any eligible voter to cast a ballot before Election Day. While some states provide early in-person voting, this webpage addresses absentee voting and all-mail voting.

www.ncsl.org

Although, normally voting by mail doesn't affect party votes, I bet it might this year if we have another resurgence of Covid, because I think the right is much more apt to discount the virus than the left. I know that is why Trump is against it.

Whether you're left or right wing, expanding mail in votes is the right thing to do to reduce the likelihood of spreading the virus, to expand voter participation, and to make it easier for those that do show up to stay distant. It will also allow any people with susceptibilities to remain safer. I think voting by mail could be made extremely secure by having people vote using traditional postal mail, coupled with requiring a confirmation either by phone, email or text. If done by phone, then voters can provide confirmation that can include confirming their form number. If done by email or text, it can include a picture of their form, and then confirmation that that was their form. Rather than staffers individually calling people, this can be automated by having voters call the number, text the number, or email the address provided to them on their form. A website can even be created with a database of those that have voted, and perhaps a link to allow people to confirm their vote was correctly registered. For people without computers, a site can include a means to access the database over the phone with some confirmation information. These types of systems are used extensively by banks and other sites that need security, so I think they are mature enough to use. We could even use such a site for people to confirm their vote on the day of the election.

 

[SystemShock]

They tknow their supporters are suckers. Simple as that.

Fify

 

[not2rich]

What a stupid argument.

Russia was working to get Trump elected in the last election. Presumably, they would have been working to support Trump again in this election.

Ergo, if Biden wins, then they weren’t successful. That doesn’t mean they didn’t try and fail this time around, nor does it mean that they weren’t successful in influencing the election in 2016.

It's stupid because the Russian efforts in 2016 weren't about fraudulent votes. It was about e-mail hacks and social media efforts to try to influence the election.

The current argument is that the ACTUAL (Democratic) votes were illegal. Because reasons. It's comparing apples and oranges, and I would question the good faith of intelligent people arguing otherwise.

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

Anyone read the transcript of the recanting recanter Richard Hopkins? Basically, the investigators just kept pressing him to recall exactly what he heard, and he ended up admitting that he didn't hear any of the damning stuff, that his mind just made up the blanks.

The other signed affidavits that have been floating around are pretty nuts. Like one that said they saw some military ballots cast for Biden, and they thought the military always voted conservative. This is going to fade pretty quickly.

 

[not2rich]

Anyone read the transcript of the recanting recanter Richard Hopkins? Basically, the investigators just kept pressing him to recall exactly what he heard, and he ended up admitting that he didn't hear any of the damning stuff, that his mind just made up the blanks.

The other signed affidavits that have been floating around are pretty nuts. Like one that said they saw some military ballots cast for Biden, and they thought the military always voted conservative. This is going to fade pretty quickly.

We'll see. I switched to Lou Dobbs for a bit earlier and they had breathless chirons about illegal/irregular things going on in Michigan. My parents watch this crap.

 

[MT15]

I’m feeling a bit better this evening than I was this afternoon. I think the combo of Biden naming his chief of staff (and it being a very popular pick) and Karl Rove coming out and saying it’s time for Trump to move on has had a calming effect.

 

[not2rich]

Anyone read the transcript of the recanting recanter Richard Hopkins? Basically, the investigators just kept pressing him to recall exactly what he heard, and he ended up admitting that he didn't hear any of the damning stuff, that his mind just made up the blanks.

The other signed affidavits that have been floating around are pretty nuts. Like one that said they saw some military ballots cast for Biden, and they thought the military always voted conservative. This is going to fade pretty quickly.

I would bet six months mortgage payments that the legal filings are going nowhere, but that doesn't stop the propaganda occurring in the meantime. And the whole point of the propaganda is to allow people to dismiss the court dismissals when the time comes.

 

[Saint by the Bay]

I’ll bet folding money that right now Republican pollsters are trying to figure out if there would be a political price to pay for working with state legislatures to flip this thing. They may not do it, but they are thinking about it.

 

[DJ1BigTymer]

It just incredibly stupid that this is happening. These clowns want to go to court with "evidence" that they want to hide from the public. WTH

An Arizona Superior Court judge has denied a request by President Trump's reelection team to seal evidence in a lawsuit alleging poll workers in Maricopa County "incorrectly rejected" Election Day votes.

Judge Daniel Kiley agreed with election officials' assertion that the public “has a right to know how flimsy [the] Plaintiffs’ evidence actually is.”

According to the Arizona Republic, the Trump campaign claimed workers had disregarded procedure and that thousands of ballots could have been left uncounted or deemed "overvotes," but Maricopa officials estimated Monday that only 180 ballots were potentially in jeopardy.

Arizona judge denies Trump team request to seal evidence in vote-counting suit

An Arizona Superior Court Judge has denied a request by President Trump's re-election team to seal evidence in a lawsuit alleging poll workers in Maricopa County "incorrectly rejected" Election Day votes.

www.foxnews.com

 

[superchuck500]

How many times are you all going to ignore the fact that I have always said 'credible' evidence? Not all claims are true. Not all claims are false. These claims must be investigated.

There is a process here, just like 2016, just like in 2000. Going through the legal and time test process does not mean the end of democracy or a seizure of power or whatever else alarmist want to call it. What we are going through is normal. It is part of the process that both sides have always done. We are not even behind schedule on the election. No delay. Just both campaigns going through all the legally allowed measures for transparency to maintain citizens faith in our electoral process.
This is a fact and because is not allowed to be talked or written off as conspiracy theories is crazy to me, but I am obviously in the minority.

You're actually quite wrong about that and the problem with presenting this as innocuous and normal (when it very much is not) is that avoids the reality that Trump's destructive public commentary and litigation effort are both unprecedented and against the interests of the United States.

Were you aware that Al Gore actually didn't start any litigation in 2000? Florida's recount was automatic by statute, and though it narrowed the gap from over 1,700 votes to just over 500 votes, Bush was still the winner. As he's allowed under Florida statute, Gore asked for a manual recount in four counties. While that was going on, the statutory deadline for counting expired and the Florida Secretary of State declared Bush the winner. Officials in one of the counties sued the Secretary of State for that action and Gore joined the lawsuit to request the Florida Supreme Court allow the voting to continue. That's it - that's the extent of the litigation filed by Gore in 2000. And carrying it through to the Supreme Court was legitimate and sensible - it was one case in one state where the margin was fewer than 600 votes.

In 2016, Hilary Clinton didn't commence any litigation either. When Jill Stein filed a lawsuit in Wisconsin to ask for a recount, Clinton filed a motion to join the suit as additional plaintiff on the basis that the recount could effect her interests as well. But she didn't file the suit or ask for the recount in the first instance. Nor did she file suit anywhere else.

In 1960, Republicans and the Nixon campaign widely believed that votes coming from Chicago were suspect and urged Nixon to file suit challenging the result. Nixon refused, claiming that he didn't want to "tear the country apart." (Citation below).

Trump lost six swing states. And each of them by more than 10,000 votes, and close to 50,000 votes in Pennsylvania and almost 150,000 votes Michigan. Trump has filed suit in Michigan and Arizona, and multiple suits in Pennsylvania. Giuliani stated a suit was coming in Wisconsin but it hasn't been filed yet. Additional suits have been filed by Republicans in Congress.

Trump continues to tweet that he won the election - or that it was rigged or stolen from him. The Trump administration is refusing to acknowledge the president-elect. The Trump administration is refusing common accommodations to the president-elect's team (including the State Department refusing to pass congratulatory correspondence to Biden received by State channels . . . which is apparently a long tradition). The White House has even ordered agencies to prepare to go forward with the Trump OMB's allocations on budget starting February.

Yet there remains no meaningful evidence to even think that the requisite tens of thousands of votes might be tossed out. Trump's suits have been laughably weak and brought literal laughter from the legal community and elsewhere in the degree to which the lawyers are presenting flimsy, silly, or even bad-faithed claims in court. They're literally trying to get anything to stick.

The reason why post-election litigation to challenge a result is so infrequent is because election systems have safeguards and redundancies that allow them to come to a reliable certification. And the tradition in this Republic has been to allow that process to proceed without intervention from the Department of Justice or trivial litigation from the candidates and their campaigns. Suing in multiple states and claiming widespread fraud, with no meaningful evidence, is an insult to those processes and traditions.

And you might have a point if any of these lawsuits or public claims by the president had any substance to them. But they don't, which means that there are only two reasonable motivations for this entire destructive episode: (1) Trump knows he lost but believes that this is good for him and Republicans because it keeps his base invigorated to donate money to the continued effort (that he then uses to pay down campaign debt or for RNC to use in Georgia) and to continue his personal base into the next cycle, or (2) Trump's deep personality flaws cannot accept the reality that he loss and must persist in this delusion because he cannot behave in any other way.

Neither is legitimate.

The transition process is important and set forth in federal statute. The transition process takes time and must be done professionally and with dignity and accommodation. Trump is allowing none of it. And most importantly, the transition process is essential to the interests of the United States because an unenthusiastic or incomplete transition process exposes gaps in effective operation of American government (as the 9/11 Commission concluded).

While it is true that we must have these procedures available to prevent a genuine subversion of American democracy, tying up the transition effort with spurious arguments and scant evidence is abuse of process. Those who perpetuate this effort and who amplify this effort are acting on illegitimate interests and against the interests of the United States, and they should be reminded of it every day, every moment.

This is not routine. This is not precedented. This is not normal. This is Donald Trump, and it continues to be loathsome that leaders in posts like the Senate Majority Leader, the Secretary of State, and the Attorney General of the United States are willing to help him perpetrate this abuse of process to serve illegitimate political interests.

Presidential Votes Have Been Too Close To Call And Even Too Close to Count

The uncertainty of past U.S. elections may not offer an adequate model given the magnitude of this year's problems and the apparent determination of the incumbent to resist any adverse results.

www.npr.org

State Department won’t give Biden messages from foreign leaders: report

The State Department won’t give President-elect Joe Biden or his transition team dozens of messages that foreign leaders have given to the department, CNN reported Wednesday. President Trump’s…

thehill.com

 

[bdb13]

 

[bdb13]

You're actually quite wrong about that and the problem with presenting this as innocuous and normal (when it very much is not) is that avoids the reality that Trump's destructive public commentary and litigation effort that both unprecedented and against the interests of the United States.

Were you aware that Al Gore actually didn't start any litigation in 2000? Florida's recount was automatic by statute, and though it narrowed the gap from over 1,700 votes to just over 500 votes, Bush was still the winner. As he's allowed under Florida statute, Gore asked for a manual recount in four counties. While that was going on, because the statutory deadline for counting expired and the Florida Secretary of State declared Bush the winner. Officials in one of the counties sued the Secretary of State for that action and Gore joined the lawsuit to request the Florida Supreme Court allow the voting to continue. That's it - that's the extent of the litigation filed by Gore in 2000.

In 2016, Hilary Clinton didn't commence any litigation either. When Jill Stein filed a lawsuit in Wisconsin to ask for a recount, Clinton filed a motion to join the suit as additional plaintiff on the basis that the recount could effect her interests as well. But she didn't file the suit or ask for the recount in the first instance. Nor did she file suit anywhere else.

In 1960, Republicans and the Nixon campaign widely believed that votes coming from Chicago were suspect and urged Nixon to file suit challenging the result. Nixon refused, claiming that he didn't want to "tear the country apart." (Citation below).

Trump lost six swing states. And each of them by more than 10,000 votes, and close to 50,000 votes in Pennsylvania and almost 150,000 votes Michigan. Trump has filed suit in Michigan and Arizona, and multiple suits in Pennsylvania. Giuliani stated a suit was coming in Wisconsin but it hasn't been filed yet. Additional suits have been filed by Republicans in Congress.

Trump continues to tweet that he won the election - or that it was rigged or stolen from him. The Trump administration is refusing to acknowledge the president-elect. The Trump administration is refusing common accommodations to the president-elect's team (including the State Department refusing to pass congratulatory correspondence to Biden received by State channels . . . which is apparently a long tradition). The White House has even ordered agencies to prepare to go forward with the Trump OMB's allocations on budget starting February.

Yet there remains no meaningful evidence to even think that the requisite tens of thousands of votes might be tossed out. Trump's suits have been laughably weak and brought literal laughter from the legal community and elsewhere in the degree to which the lawyers are presenting flimsy, silly, or even bad-faithed claims in court. They're literally trying to get anything to stick.

The reason why litigation is so infrequent is because election systems have safeguards and redundancies that allow them to come to a reliable certification. And the tradition in this Republic has been to allow that process to proceed without intervention from the Department of Justice or trivial litigation from the candidates and their campaigns. Suing in every state and claiming widespread fraud, with no meaningful evidence, is an insult to those processes and traditions.

And you might have a point if any of these lawsuits or public claims by the president had any substance to them. But they don't, which means that there are only two reasonable motivations for this entire destructive episode: (1) Trump knows he lost but believes that this is good for him and Republicans because it keeps his base invigorated to donate money to the continued effort (that he then uses to pay down campaign debt or for RNC to use in Georgia) and to continue his personal base into the next cycle, or (2) Trump's deep personality flaws cannot accept the reality that he loss and must persist in this delusion because he cannot behave in any other way.

Neither is legitimate.

The transition process is important and set forth in federal statute. The transition process takes time and must be done professionally and with dignity and accommodation. Trump is allowing none of it. And most importantly, the transition process is essential to the interests of the United States because an unenthusiastic or incomplete transition process exposes gaps in effective operation of American government (as the 911 Commission concluded).

While it is true that we must have these procedures available to prevent a genuine subversion of American democracy, tying up the transition effort with spurious arguments and scant evidence is abuse of process. Those who perpetuate this effort and who amplify this effort are acting on illegitimate interests and against the interests of the United States and they should be reminded of it every day, every moment.

This is not routine. This is not precedented. This is not normal. This is Donald Trump, and it continues to be so loathsome that posts like the Senate Majority Leader, the Secretary of State, and the Attorney General of the United States are willing to help him perpetrate this abuse of process to serve illegitimate political interests.

Presidential Votes Have Been Too Close To Call And Even Too Close to Count

The uncertainty of past U.S. elections may not offer an adequate model given the magnitude of this year's problems and the apparent determination of the incumbent to resist any adverse results.

www.npr.org

State Department won’t give Biden messages from foreign leaders: report

The State Department won’t give President-elect Joe Biden or his transition team dozens of messages that foreign leaders have given to the department, CNN reported Wednesday. President Trump’s…

thehill.com

Yes. This. Thank you.

 

[wardorican]

I imagine any conservatives that don't have faith in the electoral institutions right now will suddenly have that faith restored when a conservative wins. Just like seemingly the Russians didn't steal THIS election.

I'm curious is there still was some level of Russian interference. So much of it is just the media landscape. It's murky.

 

[jdn9201]

I was a Republican for a long time, and will admit Romney was the last Republican I voted for. The way the party is today, I doubt I will ever vote Republican again.

It’s a shame that the far religious right couldn’t get behind Romney bc Omg he’s Mormon . I voted for him as well and other than being for bigger government, I highly respect him.
i get there are politics involved but at some point the Republican Party needs to tell Trump to get over it. I know if he has a stranglehold on the party, I’ll be done voting for them too. I don’t really agree with most Democrat policy ideas but Trump has taken the party off the rails. It’s like they are all on drugs - they don’t even know what they believe anymore besides just doing whatever Trump wants.

 

[wardorican]

You're actually quite wrong about that and the problem with presenting this as innocuous and normal (when it very much is not) is that avoids the reality that Trump's destructive public commentary and litigation effort are both unprecedented and against the interests of the United States.

Were you aware that Al Gore actually didn't start any litigation in 2000? Florida's recount was automatic by statute, and though it narrowed the gap from over 1,700 votes to just over 500 votes, Bush was still the winner. As he's allowed under Florida statute, Gore asked for a manual recount in four counties. While that was going on, because the statutory deadline for counting expired and the Florida Secretary of State declared Bush the winner. Officials in one of the counties sued the Secretary of State for that action and Gore joined the lawsuit to request the Florida Supreme Court allow the voting to continue. That's it - that's the extent of the litigation filed by Gore in 2000. And carrying it through to the Supreme Court was legitimate and sensible - it was one case in one state where the margin was fewer than 600 votes.

In 2016, Hilary Clinton didn't commence any litigation either. When Jill Stein filed a lawsuit in Wisconsin to ask for a recount, Clinton filed a motion to join the suit as additional plaintiff on the basis that the recount could effect her interests as well. But she didn't file the suit or ask for the recount in the first instance. Nor did she file suit anywhere else.

In 1960, Republicans and the Nixon campaign widely believed that votes coming from Chicago were suspect and urged Nixon to file suit challenging the result. Nixon refused, claiming that he didn't want to "tear the country apart." (Citation below).

Trump lost six swing states. And each of them by more than 10,000 votes, and close to 50,000 votes in Pennsylvania and almost 150,000 votes Michigan. Trump has filed suit in Michigan and Arizona, and multiple suits in Pennsylvania. Giuliani stated a suit was coming in Wisconsin but it hasn't been filed yet. Additional suits have been filed by Republicans in Congress.

Trump continues to tweet that he won the election - or that it was rigged or stolen from him. The Trump administration is refusing to acknowledge the president-elect. The Trump administration is refusing common accommodations to the president-elect's team (including the State Department refusing to pass congratulatory correspondence to Biden received by State channels . . . which is apparently a long tradition). The White House has even ordered agencies to prepare to go forward with the Trump OMB's allocations on budget starting February.

Yet there remains no meaningful evidence to even think that the requisite tens of thousands of votes might be tossed out. Trump's suits have been laughably weak and brought literal laughter from the legal community and elsewhere in the degree to which the lawyers are presenting flimsy, silly, or even bad-faithed claims in court. They're literally trying to get anything to stick.

The reason why litigation is so infrequent is because election systems have safeguards and redundancies that allow them to come to a reliable certification. And the tradition in this Republic has been to allow that process to proceed without intervention from the Department of Justice or trivial litigation from the candidates and their campaigns. Suing in multiple states and claiming widespread fraud, with no meaningful evidence, is an insult to those processes and traditions.

And you might have a point if any of these lawsuits or public claims by the president had any substance to them. But they don't, which means that there are only two reasonable motivations for this entire destructive episode: (1) Trump knows he lost but believes that this is good for him and Republicans because it keeps his base invigorated to donate money to the continued effort (that he then uses to pay down campaign debt or for RNC to use in Georgia) and to continue his personal base into the next cycle, or (2) Trump's deep personality flaws cannot accept the reality that he loss and must persist in this delusion because he cannot behave in any other way.

Neither is legitimate.

The transition process is important and set forth in federal statute. The transition process takes time and must be done professionally and with dignity and accommodation. Trump is allowing none of it. And most importantly, the transition process is essential to the interests of the United States because an unenthusiastic or incomplete transition process exposes gaps in effective operation of American government (as the 911 Commission concluded).

While it is true that we must have these procedures available to prevent a genuine subversion of American democracy, tying up the transition effort with spurious arguments and scant evidence is abuse of process. Those who perpetuate this effort and who amplify this effort are acting on illegitimate interests and against the interests of the United States, and they should be reminded of it every day, every moment.

This is not routine. This is not precedented. This is not normal. This is Donald Trump, and it continues to be so loathsome that posts like the Senate Majority Leader, the Secretary of State, and the Attorney General of the United States are willing to help him perpetrate this abuse of process to serve illegitimate political interests.

Presidential Votes Have Been Too Close To Call And Even Too Close to Count

The uncertainty of past U.S. elections may not offer an adequate model given the magnitude of this year's problems and the apparent determination of the incumbent to resist any adverse results.

www.npr.org

State Department won’t give Biden messages from foreign leaders: report

The State Department won’t give President-elect Joe Biden or his transition team dozens of messages that foreign leaders have given to the department, CNN reported Wednesday. President Trump’s…

thehill.com

I've told you before, I'm sure, that I owe you a beer if we are ever in the same area. Now I owe you at least two.

Thanks for doing the heavy lifting Chuck.

 

[zztop]

We'll see. I switched to Lou Dobbs for a bit earlier and they had breathless chirons about illegal/irregular things going on in Michigan. My parents watch this crap.

Yeah, I don't get how or why some people on here were praising Dobbs a while back. I've watched him a few times over the years and he is just as much of a piece of shirt as the rest on faux news

Lou Dobbs: "Many are trying to steal this election from President Trump. There is no doubt about it."

www.mediamatters.org

"LOU DOBBS (HOST): The radical Dems are also working with the corporate-owned left-wing national media, doing their very best to nullify the votes of 71 million Trump voters.

And let's be very direct, many are trying to steal this election from President Trump. There is no doubt about it. The only doubt is the extent of it.
The president has roundly rejected the national left-wing media for its overreach, its presumption in calling Joe Biden the President-Elect Saturday. Talk about presumptuous.

And to be clear, irrespective of the left wing's wishes, the radical Dems' wishes, those of the media, there is no official winner until every legal vote is counted, every disputed vote is resolved. "

(also on faux news - I guess even her brother thinks she is insane)

 

[wardorican]

Yeah, I don't get how or why some people on here were praising Dobbs a while back. I've watched him a few times over the years and he is just as much of a piece of shirt as the rest on faux news

Lou Dobbs: "Many are trying to steal this election from President Trump. There is no doubt about it."

www.mediamatters.org

"LOU DOBBS (HOST): The radical Dems are also working with the corporate-owned left-wing national media, doing their very best to nullify the votes of 71 million Trump voters.

And let's be very direct, many are trying to steal this election from President Trump. There is no doubt about it. The only doubt is the extent of it.
The president has roundly rejected the national left-wing media for its overreach, its presumption in calling Joe Biden the President-Elect Saturday. Talk about presumptuous.

And to be clear, irrespective of the left wing's wishes, the radical Dems' wishes, those of the media, there is no official winner until every legal vote is counted, every disputed vote is resolved. "

People remember him from like 15 years ago when he was more of just a financial business guy and his opinions didn't go out of his lane.

 

[Eeyore]

Voter fraud

Link ->

Tuckbot

 

[wardorican]

It just incredibly stupid that this is happening. These clowns want to go to court with "evidence" that they want to hide from the public. WTH

Arizona judge denies Trump team request to seal evidence in vote-counting suit

An Arizona Superior Court Judge has denied a request by President Trump's re-election team to seal evidence in a lawsuit alleging poll workers in Maricopa County "incorrectly rejected" Election Day votes.

www.foxnews.com

Sometimes lawyers deserve being dunked on. Heck, sometimes all of us deserve being dunked on. haha.