The Voting Thread (Procedures, Turnout, Legal Challenges)(Update: Trump to file suit in PA, MI, WI, AZ, NV, GA) (4 Viewers)

[Lapaz]

There is a lot of push-back from Trump on voting by mail, but most states allow it, and 1/3 allow it without any excuse. His rationale is that it will lead to vast fraud, but of course that isn't his real reason. His real reason is that he thinks it will be worse for conservatives, but studies have shown that states that have instituted much broader voting by mail haven't had any statistical changes in party voting.

Stanford study: Mail voting doesn't benefit one party over another

Coronavirus-spurred limits have intensified a push to allow more mail balloting in November.

www.politico.com

Voting Outside the Polling Place: Absentee, All-Mail and other Voting at Home Options

Most states offer at least one method for any eligible voter to cast a ballot before Election Day. While some states provide early in-person voting, this webpage addresses absentee voting and all-mail voting.

www.ncsl.org

Although, normally voting by mail doesn't affect party votes, I bet it might this year if we have another resurgence of Covid, because I think the right is much more apt to discount the virus than the left. I know that is why Trump is against it.

Whether you're left or right wing, expanding mail in votes is the right thing to do to reduce the likelihood of spreading the virus, to expand voter participation, and to make it easier for those that do show up to stay distant. It will also allow any people with susceptibilities to remain safer. I think voting by mail could be made extremely secure by having people vote using traditional postal mail, coupled with requiring a confirmation either by phone, email or text. If done by phone, then voters can provide confirmation that can include confirming their form number. If done by email or text, it can include a picture of their form, and then confirmation that that was their form. Rather than staffers individually calling people, this can be automated by having voters call the number, text the number, or email the address provided to them on their form. A website can even be created with a database of those that have voted, and perhaps a link to allow people to confirm their vote was correctly registered. For people without computers, a site can include a means to access the database over the phone with some confirmation information. These types of systems are used extensively by banks and other sites that need security, so I think they are mature enough to use. We could even use such a site for people to confirm their vote on the day of the election.

 

[Eeyore]

Remember our earlier observations about the importance of quality counsel when you're trying to litigate a presidential election?

This article goes along with your post.

Trump Lawyer Admits to Judge: We're Not Alleging Fraud | Law & Crime

There's a big difference between a) waving around a stack of affidavits in a safe space and b) bringing your claims before a judge. We saw that difference on Tuesday in the Trump campaign's case in Montgomery County, Pennsylvania.

lawandcrime.com

 

[GrandAdmiral]

Do I have to call you daddy, or can I enjoy my spanking in silence?

 

[Farb]

How many times are you all going to ignore the fact that I have always said 'credible' evidence? Not all claims are true. Not all claims are false. These claims must be investigated.

There is a process here, just like 2016, just like in 2000. Going through the legal and time test process does not mean the end of democracy or a seizure of power or whatever else alarmist want to call it. What we are going through is normal. It is part of the process that both sides have always done. We are not even behind schedule on the election. No delay. Just both campaigns going through all the legally allowed measures for transparency to maintain citizens faith in our electoral process.
This is a fact and because is not allowed to be talked or written off as conspiracy theories is crazy to me, but I am obviously in the minority.

 

[LA - L.A.]

To be sure, I don't think they're hedging because of Trump. They're hedging because of the Georgia runoff. They don't want to scare off the Trump voters because they need them for the runoff. It's a crappy thing to do, but right now it's about survival in terms of the Senate.

I'm convinced that if the Georgia election was already decided, they would have all jumped the sinking Trump ship by now.

Even if that is all true, it doesn't make what they are doing any less dangerous. Regardless of their intentions and motivations, their actions are creating a situation that gives Trump an opportunity to seize authoritarian control of the country.

Go back and look at history. Every time authoritarians seized control of a democracy, most of the people were saying some variation of "it's all going to be fine" and that consensus attitude is what allowed the authoritarians to seize control of those democracies.

If something catches on fire in your house, do you sit back and say "let's see how this plays out before we get too concerned?"

 

[Nebaghead]

How many times are you all going to ignore the fact that I have always said 'credible' evidence? Not all claims are true. Not all claims are false. These claims must be investigated.

There is a process here, just like 2016, just like in 2000. Going through the legal and time test process does not mean the end of democracy or a seizure of power or whatever else alarmist want to call it. What we are going through is normal. It is part of the process that both sides have always done. We are not even behind schedule on the election. No delay. Just both campaigns going through all the legally allowed measures for transparency to maintain citizens faith in our electoral process.
This is a fact and because is not allowed to be talked or written off as conspiracy theories is crazy to me, but I am obviously in the minority.

My only rub is the president and other leaders making fraud charges and that the democrats are cheating. Some leaders have made statements that all credible fraud charges should be investigated but others have made dubious claims without a shred of evidence.

 

[LA - L.A.]

JP Morgan's updated economic outlook yesterday described a Biden White House and close Senate under GOP control, or 50/50 to be the "unicorn scenario" for markets.

Specifically because the government would be ineffective in regulating business. That may be great for businesses and investors, but it's terrible for most people. But you know, "money money money, money!"

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

How many times are you all going to ignore the fact that I have always said 'credible' evidence? Not all claims are true. Not all claims are false. These claims must be investigated.

There is a process here, just like 2016, just like in 2000. Going through the legal and time test process does not mean the end of democracy or a seizure of power or whatever else alarmist want to call it. What we are going through is normal. It is part of the process that both sides have always done. We are not even behind schedule on the election. No delay. Just both campaigns going through all the legally allowed measures for transparency to maintain citizens faith in our electoral process.
This is a fact and because is not allowed to be talked or written off as conspiracy theories is crazy to me, but I am obviously in the minority.

This would be great and all if the actual President weren't outright claiming that the election was rigged, that he is the rightful winner and there is massive fraud. Not calmly asking for recounts or trying to make sure everything is squared away, outright claiming fraud and his own victory. He is further retweeting people who are suggesting that state legislatures ignore their states' votes and just send their own electors. And further there are now state legislators publicly musing about doing just that.

I also don't think it will happen, but I think blithely dismissing this as normal is not accurate.

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

Further, the number of people in my immediate circle who are claiming there is NO WAY Biden could win without fraud is staggering. Even before the election that was what they were claiming. And now they aren't calmly saying that we'd just like to see the process play out. They are outright saying the election was stolen. Which now that I think about is kind of normal -- I guess it's having the actual President and other elected officials publicly muse that we just throw out the votes and just send their own electors is the unusual part.

 

[LA - L.A.]

What we are going through is normal.

Name another president that has claimed the election was stolen from him.

Name another president that has filed multiple frivolous lawsuits alleging voter fraud stole the election from them and then in every lawsuit admitting in court in every single case that they have no actual evidence of the election being stolen.

If what is happening were truly normal, then it should be easy to name at least one president that has done this exact same thing. There is nothing normal about what Trump and the Republicans are doing.

 

[wardorican]

Remember our earlier observations about the importance of quality counsel when you're trying to litigate a presidential election?

Here's a full article on it with the judges order.

Michigan Judge Dismisses Trump Lawsuit Backed by 'Hearsay' Evidence | Law & Crime

In President Donald Trump's second loss in court in a single day, a Michigan judge rejected the Trump campaign's bid to stop counting ballots without their inspectors present. The judge scoffed at plaintiffs' "hearsay" evidence that a lawyer said she heard from a poll worker regarding dates...

lawandcrime.com

 

[MrScary]

How many times are you all going to ignore the fact that I have always said 'credible' evidence? Not all claims are true. Not all claims are false. These claims must be investigated.

There is a process here, just like 2016, just like in 2000. Going through the legal and time test process does not mean the end of democracy or a seizure of power or whatever else alarmist want to call it. What we are going through is normal. It is part of the process that both sides have always done. We are not even behind schedule on the election. No delay. Just both campaigns going through all the legally allowed measures for transparency to maintain citizens faith in our electoral process.
This is a fact and because is not allowed to be talked or written off as conspiracy theories is crazy to me, but I am obviously in the minority.

Except this is NOTHING like 2000 or even 2016. In 2016, Trump won MI/WI/PA by 70,000 votes & HRC conceded on election night. Right now Biden is leading MI/WI/PA by 218,000 votes. In 2000, it was one state and 500 votes. The President is out there literally claiming the election has been rigged. Any other candidate in our recent history except for Trump would have conceded and allowed the process to move forward by now. There have been no instances of proven widespread fraud anywhere. AT ALL. He is 0-10 in court filings and all of his "proven" instances have fallen apart like the guy in Detroit who, turns out, was paid six figures by the GOP. What's infuriating about all this drama from Trump is this isn't even a particularly close election as shown above. Obviously he cooked up a plan based on a Florida 2000 scenario and even though it's not at all that, he's going through with it anyway, no matter how ludicrous it all is. He gaslit America for four years that this election would be robbed from him through fraud and now folks like you are buying in to a certain degree in the name of a normal process that isn't normal at all. You're playing right into it. Applying any sort of logic to this makes the whole thing fall apart. Keep acting like this is normal and yet this kind of stuff is taking place behind the scenes.

 

[MrScary]

Now that there’s a partisan lean to our counter majoritarian institutions, it is just a matter of time before someone pulls the trigger on all the more arcane possibilities in the electoral college system. it’s Chekhov’s gun folks

 

[efil4]

but I am obviously in the minority.

if you voted for Trump, then yeah.

This is far from normal. As others have posted...when was the last time you heard the SoS for a 1 term President immediately after losing the election say publicly they have advised staff to prepare for 2nd term?

Ill wait.

 

[DaveXA]

How many times are you all going to ignore the fact that I have always said 'credible' evidence? Not all claims are true. Not all claims are false. These claims must be investigated.

There is a process here, just like 2016, just like in 2000. Going through the legal and time test process does not mean the end of democracy or a seizure of power or whatever else alarmist want to call it. What we are going through is normal. It is part of the process that both sides have always done. We are not even behind schedule on the election. No delay. Just both campaigns going through all the legally allowed measures for transparency to maintain citizens faith in our electoral process.
This is a fact and because is not allowed to be talked or written off as conspiracy theories is crazy to me, but I am obviously in the minority.

This is not like 2016 or 2020, it's not even close. We've already addressed that in the thread earlier and you conveniently ignored it and now are continuing the same line of thinking.

This is not normal at all. Sure, every election has a small group of people claiming any given election was stolen. But this is the first time I've seen a sitting President, or Presidential candidate accuse a state or group of people of election fraud. Gore never said it, McCain never said it, Carter never said it, H.W. Bush never said it. No other President in the history of the Union has ever held a press conference announcing that there was election fraud and that the election was being stolen from him.

This is absolutely not normal. Trump can throw all the challenges he wants, which is his right to, but he has no right to undermine a legitimate election without any evidence, and his press conference was clearly an attempt to delegitimize the entire election process. No matter how you frame it, that is a direct threat to democracy and a peaceful transfer of power, which I think we all, other than nutty extremists, want for our country.

 

[Farb]

This is the process. Let it play out. It is not the end of the world and won't change the election.....probably. Trump has every legal right to do what he is doing. The overreaction is a bit much, but I get it.

This will give more time to collect data and make lists, so kind of a win/win.

 

[MrScary]

This is the process. Let it play out. It is not the end of the world and won't change the election.....probably. Trump has every legal right to do what he is doing. The overreaction is a bit much, but I get it.

This will give more time to collect data and make lists, so kind of a win/win.

You managed yet again to refute nothing and only repeat "this is the process" like that explains everything. We gave you exactly why this ISN'T the process for this particular election. Its maddening. So let me ask, how do you approach your ellipsis "probably" if it actually occurs? Do you shrug it off and say "well it was the process!"?

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

This is the process. Let it play out. It is not the end of the world and won't change the election.....probably. Trump has every legal right to do what he is doing. The overreaction is a bit much, but I get it.

This will give more time to collect data and make lists, so kind of a win/win.

I'm all in favor of letting the process play out now that it has begun - but would you agree that if all the legal challenges fail, and nothing new comes out, Trump ought to make a public announcement that there was no fraud and that people should have faith in our elections?

 

[Farb]

I'm all in favor of letting the process play out now that it has begun - but would you agree that if all the legal challenges fail, and nothing new comes out, Trump ought to make a public announcement that there was no fraud and that people should have faith in our elections?

100% Yes