The Voting Thread (Procedures, Turnout, Legal Challenges)(Update: Trump to file suit in PA, MI, WI, AZ, NV, GA) (16 Viewers)

[Lapaz]

There is a lot of push-back from Trump on voting by mail, but most states allow it, and 1/3 allow it without any excuse. His rationale is that it will lead to vast fraud, but of course that isn't his real reason. His real reason is that he thinks it will be worse for conservatives, but studies have shown that states that have instituted much broader voting by mail haven't had any statistical changes in party voting.

Stanford study: Mail voting doesn't benefit one party over another

Coronavirus-spurred limits have intensified a push to allow more mail balloting in November.

www.politico.com

Voting Outside the Polling Place: Absentee, All-Mail and other Voting at Home Options

Most states offer at least one method for any eligible voter to cast a ballot before Election Day. While some states provide early in-person voting, this webpage addresses absentee voting and all-mail voting.

www.ncsl.org

Although, normally voting by mail doesn't affect party votes, I bet it might this year if we have another resurgence of Covid, because I think the right is much more apt to discount the virus than the left. I know that is why Trump is against it.

Whether you're left or right wing, expanding mail in votes is the right thing to do to reduce the likelihood of spreading the virus, to expand voter participation, and to make it easier for those that do show up to stay distant. It will also allow any people with susceptibilities to remain safer. I think voting by mail could be made extremely secure by having people vote using traditional postal mail, coupled with requiring a confirmation either by phone, email or text. If done by phone, then voters can provide confirmation that can include confirming their form number. If done by email or text, it can include a picture of their form, and then confirmation that that was their form. Rather than staffers individually calling people, this can be automated by having voters call the number, text the number, or email the address provided to them on their form. A website can even be created with a database of those that have voted, and perhaps a link to allow people to confirm their vote was correctly registered. For people without computers, a site can include a means to access the database over the phone with some confirmation information. These types of systems are used extensively by banks and other sites that need security, so I think they are mature enough to use. We could even use such a site for people to confirm their vote on the day of the election.

 

[bdb13]

i will add this explanation from Trumpists



Yeah, he was under pressure by starting his own Go Fund Me that raised over $130k.

Sounds like they did find fraud after all.

 

[brandon]

It's not going to get there because of this.. but let's just say I did ... it's kind of crazy to think that one of the most basic arguments people on the right have made with an originalist type view of the second amendment is for self-defense/defense of the country in the event that tyranny came to America... ... And that if this hypothetical were to play out, once push came to shove those same people would ultimately be the ones taking up their arms in defense of the tyrannical.

Trump runs a hell of a con even in the hypotheticals.

They’ll think they’re fighting the tyranny of a Biden stolen election.

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

It's going to be fine everyone.

Just calmly refute all the baseless claims to anyone who brings it up. It won't change their minds, but you'll be preparing them for when the courts ultimately don't do anything.

 

[Mr. Blue Sky]

I put the odds on Trump and the GOP being able to stage a successful coup at about 50/50. Going to unplug from politics until it's clear Biden will assume the Presidency. At this point, assume and prepare for the worst. If that sounds dystopian, well... we're living in a dystopia. Good luck to us all.

This is pretty much where i am as well.. Since i have absolutely zero control over what happens, besides my one vote, and i already used that.. Not much we can do now, besides hope that the process works like it should.

 

[DJ1BigTymer]

Sounds like they did find fraud after all.

I think that's the second one, the first was the woman in NV who claimed she couldn't vote in person because her mail in ballot was stolen from her home. When confronted by NV election official with proof of her signature on her ballot and an offer to cast her vote again after signing off on the disposal of her MIV, she declined and went to court. Federal Judge throws out the complaint.

 

[SystemShock]

If you want the other half of the country to feel this election was valid and legit, unlike 4 years ago, then why not check any all creditable acts of election fraud?

There is nothing to check, then.

 

[MT15]

There have been a lot of claims debunked on line. One video of alleged ballot fraud was actually from Russia, where they presumably practice that stuff regularly. One case of a “dead” man voting was a clerical error, a man’s vote was attributed to his deceased father who had the same name, there was no duplicate vote. Other cases are explained by the fact that when the database doesn’t have a date of birth, it fills in 1-1-1900, leading to claims of dead people voting. Funny thing is they were able to go to these people’s houses and talk to them. Cases in Nevada of supposedly out of state voters are actually active duty military and/or college students that are allowed to vote in their home state. Another video of a suspicious van unloading at a counting location was a camera man unloading his equipment. There’s nothing.

 

[DJ1BigTymer]

There is nothing to check, then.

Exactly, if there's no creditable acts of election fraud, what's the hold up??? Are we supposed to wait until the trump campaign arguments from ignorance concludes???

 

[SystemShock]

Exactly, if there's no creditable acts of election fraud, what's the hold up??? Are we supposed to wait until the trump campaign arguments from ignorance concludes???

Funny thing is, the 2 fraud cases I've heard of, one was the postal worker saying he saw a supervisor tampering with votes then recanted, and the other was a Trumpette trying to register his dead mother to cast a vote for Trump.

 

[EmBeeFiveOhFour]

If the fraud is so pervasive that it affected millions of votes, why do we have to search so hard to find it that we will literally pay people for stories? (And why the fork are they looking for fraud in a state that Trump won?)

 

[MrScary]

Funny thing is, the 2 fraud cases I've heard of, one was the postal worker saying he saw a supervisor tampering with votes then recanted, and the other was a Trumpette trying to register his dead mother to cast a vote for Trump.

Color me unsurprised. Send em all to jail. Also saying that Pompeo is "joking" is exactly how we've become numb to all of this nonsense. When will you guys realize that just maybe they aren't? It...can...happen...here
https://thehill.com/homenews/house/...ecants-ballot-tampering-allegations-officials

 

[Foreign National]

As is often the case people are debating two different things.

1. Trump has every right to turn over every rock, exhaust every legal avenue and milk his supporters for as much "legal defense fund" money as possible. (OK, that last one was snarky)

2. Running around saying the election is being stolen, claiming massive voter fraud with no evidence and refusing to accept the current outcome of the election is irresponsible, classless, destructive to the faith in our elections, playing to our international adversaries, and frankly, repugnant.

People seem to be arguing that people don't want him to have his day in court. That is in no way what people are arguing. People are saying STOP LYING. This isn't a game, it's not just about partisan BS. This is the faith the world has in our institutions (which is already weakened) and the faith we and others have in our democracy for no other reason than to protect a narcissist's fragile emotional state.

Look at the election. Do it. File more lawsuits to be thrown out like 11 already have been. Just do it the right way not this trashy, amateur, elementary schoolyard, landscape company drive-way way. Have some damn dignity and respect for this country.

If Trump doesn't concede within a week, or probably less...the Republican leadership needs to cut bait and move on without Trump. They have to get that out the way sooner than later. The longer they wait, the less time they have to shift the messaging if Trump goes off the deep end. I mean, he's really already there. They need to convince him that he needs to change the narrative if they're going to have a shot in GA.

Years from now Trumpettes will still be saying it's true.

Keep in mind that even if all of Mr Trump’s legal challenges are thrown out he will shift to saying the judges involved are from the radical left or some other made up claim. We already know that a history of proven lies and video evidence of hypocrisy is not a disqualifying factor for the majority of Republican voters. Look at recent elections. For years to come there will be a large number of Republicans who will only remember that Democrats stole an election. Add that to all the valid policy disagreements and lies constantly being told about the radical left, that will allow them to ignore when their political leaders do things like steal SCOTUS seats or take children away from families never to be reunited again.

This may not benefit Mr Trump but his enablers are smart enough to play the long game.

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

Just fyi - that Hopkins guy is now recanting his recanting. I wonder if he'll be making another GoFundMe pitch.

 

[superchuck500]

Because 2000 is the most relevant election to this one, I agree with you that it's a potentially valuable example - but any examination of it should conclude how different they are rather than alike. So let's take a look at what happened in 2000.

First, Al Gore did not 'contest' the 2000 election in any way. Based on Florida statute, the state was mandated to conduct a recount because the margin of victory was within half of a percent (.05%). After the machine recount, Bush held a lead of 327 votes in total across the state. Based on Florida's recount law, a candidate can request manual recount on a county-by-county basis should he/she choose. Gore availed himself of this statutory provision and requested a manual recount in four counties.

Florida law (like nearly every state) has a "safe harbor" provision that required that all recounting be done within seven days of the election - and the counties responded that they could not meet that deadline. The Florida Supreme Court ruled that the counties could report their result but then revise it after the count was completed (effectively removing the statutory deadline). On this and concerns that the manual recount was happening without standards or consistency across those counties, Bush appealed directly to the US Supreme Court to intervene on the basis of equal protection and the electors clause of the US Constitution. In a now famous and controversial decision, the Court ruled that the manual recount process sanctioned by the Florida Supreme Court violated equal protection and was contrary to state election law. So the manual recount was suspended and the machine recount ruled final by Florida officials. Bush won by just several hundred votes and became president.

Trump's "litigation strategy" is very different. Rather than using state election law recount devices or even challenging the procedures used under a single-state's laws for counting votes in the event of a slim margin of victory, Trump is broadly asserting that every vote cast in six states (Michigan, Pennsylvania, Nevada, Wisconsin, Arizona, and Georgia) is inherently suspect and must be shown to be legal instead of illegal. His margin of defeat in those states is 148K, 45K, 36K, 20K, 17K, and 10K, respectively . . . but the total votes cast there are in the 10s of millions. And despite the fact that every vote was conducted within the processes provided by state legislatures and managed by election officials of both parties in accordance with law and systems in place for elections that happen routinely in America, Trump (and now other Republicans) assert that every vote is suspect until confirmed to be "legal."

But it doesn't work that way. Those votes are presumed to be legal, not illegal, because they were cast, received, and counted in accordance with those procedures. Where states have applicable recounting laws, they can be used for recounts where applicable. But the statement that a losing candidate can broadly demand an audit of the entire vote simply because "it's his right" is not accurate under American law. Where an election result comes through those state election procedures and no recount is available under state law, the candidate's only recourse should be through a lawsuit shown to have merit on a specific protection under applicable law.

I don't have a problem with Trump or his campaign filing lawsuits on allegations that state a legitimate prima facie case that includes some basis in reality. But filing lawsuits with the ambition of simply opening up the state's entire ballot count as a fishing expedition to challenge the election result is a very dangerous precedent and I only hope that the judges in these cases recognize that.

@Sandman

I got two concepts here confused. The FL statute recount date and the federal "safe harbor" date were both relevant in the decision. But my recitation of the facts confuses them. It's inconsequential but if you were gonna lift it, be advised.

 

[superchuck500]

Just fyi - that Hopkins guy is now recanting his recanting. I wonder if he'll be making another GoFundMe pitch.

Are you serious? That story is ridiculous and Project Veritas has no shame. What a con artist organization that is. I thought at some point they had a decent reputation (or am I confused with a different organization)?

 

[DaveXA]

Just fyi - that Hopkins guy is now recanting his recanting. I wonder if he'll be making another GoFundMe pitch.

He gotta get his from both sides. Squeeze em for all they're worth.

 

[superchuck500]

Dude

 

[Mr. Blue Sky]

that Hopkins guy is now recanting his recanting

Is that even a thing? There has to be a word or a term for ‘recanting a recanting’, it cant just be called that... Can it?