The Voting Thread (Procedures, Turnout, Legal Challenges)(Update: Trump to file suit in PA, MI, WI, AZ, NV, GA) (1 Viewer)

[Lapaz]

There is a lot of push-back from Trump on voting by mail, but most states allow it, and 1/3 allow it without any excuse. His rationale is that it will lead to vast fraud, but of course that isn't his real reason. His real reason is that he thinks it will be worse for conservatives, but studies have shown that states that have instituted much broader voting by mail haven't had any statistical changes in party voting.

Stanford study: Mail voting doesn't benefit one party over another

Coronavirus-spurred limits have intensified a push to allow more mail balloting in November.

www.politico.com

Voting Outside the Polling Place: Absentee, All-Mail and other Voting at Home Options

Most states offer at least one method for any eligible voter to cast a ballot before Election Day. While some states provide early in-person voting, this webpage addresses absentee voting and all-mail voting.

www.ncsl.org

Although, normally voting by mail doesn't affect party votes, I bet it might this year if we have another resurgence of Covid, because I think the right is much more apt to discount the virus than the left. I know that is why Trump is against it.

Whether you're left or right wing, expanding mail in votes is the right thing to do to reduce the likelihood of spreading the virus, to expand voter participation, and to make it easier for those that do show up to stay distant. It will also allow any people with susceptibilities to remain safer. I think voting by mail could be made extremely secure by having people vote using traditional postal mail, coupled with requiring a confirmation either by phone, email or text. If done by phone, then voters can provide confirmation that can include confirming their form number. If done by email or text, it can include a picture of their form, and then confirmation that that was their form. Rather than staffers individually calling people, this can be automated by having voters call the number, text the number, or email the address provided to them on their form. A website can even be created with a database of those that have voted, and perhaps a link to allow people to confirm their vote was correctly registered. For people without computers, a site can include a means to access the database over the phone with some confirmation information. These types of systems are used extensively by banks and other sites that need security, so I think they are mature enough to use. We could even use such a site for people to confirm their vote on the day of the election.

 

[EmBeeFiveOhFour]

That's how I took it as well. It speaks more to the fact that Republicans aren't funny than the election controversy.

Donald Trump, for all of his faults, can be pretty funny. He's not as funny as he thinks he is, and an awful lot of his material doesn't work. But if he stuck to his script, didn't veer off on tangents, and the audience didn't completely hate him and every member of his family, he could deliver a pretty good stand-up special.

 

[superchuck500]

I did say 'credible' acts of election fraud. I think everyone, on both sides would want to make sure they are all legal votes, especially in this election more than any other in our history.
I will say it again: I don't think this will reverse the election. I don't think Trump is going to suddenly win.
I also don't like Trump's rhetoric on this. He should just say "I am going to pursue all my legal options to make sure this was a fair election for the American people, they deserve it." Done. But he can't and no one is surprised.
Just because you don't like the messenger doesn't mean the message should be disregarded.

I appreciate this characterization but I think the problem lies with taking the general, non-controversial idea that votes should be legal and illegal votes shouldn't be counted and applying it to an election that has concluded with a counting by the state election officials that shows a substantial vote difference. I think that Trump and many in the GOP who have joined him are perverting and weaponizing this uncontroversial idea into one that suggests that elections are inherently suspect.

Like I said in the post earlier today, a vote received from a registered voter that meets acceptance criteria and is counted is presumed legal - it doesn't have to be further authenticated to count as legal. Sure, it can be shown to have been erroneously accepted, and there is a process for that. But the state election officials, offices, and supporting staff and institutions run elections regularly - federal every two years and sometimes more often with state and local elections. These elections go smoothly and documented irregularities are few and minor. But there is this growing presumption, seeded by Trump and fostered/amplified by cabinet and GOP officials who don't seem to realize the damage their rhetoric is doing to the pillars of democracy itself, that these precincts are rampant with fraud. But there's just no evidence of anything like that.

I think we both agree that elections are not official until they are certified. And that state election systems should have verification and redundancies in their systems to ensure an accurate count. But here's the thing . . . they do! And Trump and company are behaving as if it's wild west out there in these voting precincts, but without any meaningful evidence.

Pursuing litigation that has merit, based on preliminary quality evidence because the outcome really should be in doubt is one thing - and a candidate is entitled to that. But filling suit after suit based on unreliable anecdote, unsupported conjecture, and damaging rhetoric with the purpose of hoping that something will stick is a harmful abuse of legal process.

I'm not ready to say that the whole effort meets these criteria, it's still early. But if those certifications start coming in and Trump continues this effort, it's going to get ugly and for no reason other than Trump's personality flaws. And if DOJ or some activist Trump-appointed district judge gets into the ring on a highly suspect basis, it's going to get even worse.

All for a result you recognize is reliable. The Heritage Foundation (a conservative org.) voter fraud tracking project states that there have been about 1,200 confirmed cases of voter fraud in the United States. Ever. I think this is an example of where the tendency of the Trump support base (including in government) to accept vast conspiracy theories pre-disposes them to believe and advance unrealistic and potentially damaging arguments.

But we'll see.

 

[bdb13]

I find a lot of these allegation no more credible than the Putin/Russia love affair that everyone ran with and are still running with after 2016 and yet we had 4 years of investigation and whaling from people on one side that have refused to believe the results. It happens after every election to an extent.
All credible cases should be investigated so that the rational, normal Americans won't have a sliver of doubt. There will be people that refuse to believe anything other than fraud, just like in 2016. There are extremes on both sides but we should not cater to any of them.

The difficult part with this man is that the extreme on the right side is represented by the guy currently sitting in the White House and right now - aided by many elected officials in the Republican party - he is successfully conning many people into believing that: the election was stolen; that Trump still has a chance: that Trump needs to be given money to continue to have that chance, etc.

Right this very second it's difficult to see where a significant division lies between the Republican party and their extreme. If anything, it appears to me the division lies between Republicans like Romney and Kasich and the rest of the party.

 

[Optimus Prime]

Bernie Sanders was on Bill Maher a couple months ago and he was asked a question I feel should be asked more often

Basically the question was along the lines of 'Even after Trump leaves you're going to have a lot of Republicans in office who enabled, excused and encouraged his behavior, how do you work with them after what they've done?"

He answer was kind of a non answer about compromise and working together

But it's a very valid question, even more so now with all the Voter Fraud, Stolen Election etc.

After the dust settles and the lawsuits are thrown out and Biden is in the White House what do you say to them?,

"you tried to cripple America but it didn't work. better luck next time. Now let go grab lunch at Ebbits Old Grille"

 

[DaveXA]

Bernie Sanders was on Bill Maher a couple months ago and he was asked a question I feel should be asked more often

Basically the question was along the lines of 'Even after Trump leaves you're going to have a lot of Republicans in office who enabled, excused and encouraged his behavior, how do you work with them after what they've done?"

He answer was kind of a non answer about compromise and working together

But it's a very valid question, even more so now with all the Voter Fraud, Stolen Election etc.

After the dust settles and the lawsuits are thrown out and Biden is in the White House what do you say to them?,

"you tried to cripple America but it didn't work. better luck next time. Now let go grab lunch at Ebbits Old Grille"

Yeah, I mean, if I were in Biden's shoes, why would I think that those supporting Trump's fantasies are operating in good faith with me? I mean, I get that the Georgia election is still pending runoff and that's probably part of why they may be continuing the charade. In the meantime, I'm having issues getting my transition team up and running because the current administration is dragging their feet with this faux outrage about "voting irregularities" what will not change the outcome of any of the states in question. I'd be inclined to say "fork it" and just work with those who I think are at least somewhat principled. But I'm not Biden, so....

 

[MT15]

I like this take from a man who has been in government:

 

[Saint by the Bay]

Donald Trump, for all of his faults, can be pretty funny. He's not as funny as he thinks he is, and an awful lot of his material doesn't work. But if he stuck to his script, didn't veer off on tangents, and the audience didn't completely hate him and every member of his family, he could deliver a pretty good stand-up special.

True, but he's not really a Republican. He just found his brand of grievance populism fit better in the Republican party. He said he identified more with the Democrats for a long time.

 

[DaveXA]

True, but he's not really a Republican. He just found his brand of grievance populism fit better in the Republican party. He said he identified more with the Democrats for a long time.

Wasn't he actually a registered Democrat? I'm not remembering if that was the case, or if he just identified with the party. But regardless, yeah, he's no Republican in the traditional sense.

But this is what bothers me. How can Republicans not see that it's just a vessel for him? He don't give 2 shirts about the party, yet they embrace it. It's always been a weird trend to me.

 

[coldseat]

Bernie Sanders was on Bill Maher a couple months ago and he was asked a question I feel should be asked more often

Basically the question was along the lines of 'Even after Trump leaves you're going to have a lot of Republicans in office who enabled, excused and encouraged his behavior, how do you work with them after what they've done?"

He answer was kind of a non answer about compromise and working together

But it's a very valid question, even more so now with all the Voter Fraud, Stolen Election etc.

After the dust settles and the lawsuits are thrown out and Biden is in the White House what do you say to them?,

"you tried to cripple America but it didn't work. better luck next time. Now let go grab lunch at Ebbits Old Grille"

They are continuing to do it right now by trying to legitimize Trump's call for legal challenges and supporting him in not starting the transition.

... But there is this growing presumption, seeded by Trump and fostered/amplified by cabinet and GOP officials who don't seem to realize the damage their rhetoric is doing to the pillars of democracy itself, that these precincts are rampant with fraud. But there's just no evidence of anything like that.

The main reason that McConnell and the rest of the republicans on the hill are doing this isn't just to support Trump or because they actually believe there is any validity to it. They know he lost. This for them is all about the Georgia runoff. They do not want to lose power in the Senate under any circumstances. They need to win at least one of those seats to do that. To win those seats, they need Trump voters in Georgia to show up. If they piss Trump off, he can torpedo them by burning down everything on his way out and telling his voters that election doesn't matter since he won't be president. That will kill them.

But they don't really have a good option here either. They're hoping they can string this out until the states certify on Dec. 20th. And that by that time, once his legal challenges are exhausted, Trump will come around and accept the results and still support the party. That will never happen. He will not, under any circumstances, accept the results of the election. He will try and force their hand to somehow invalidate the election results. They know they can't do that. Trump is a ticking time bomb for them.

In the meantime, while Republicans continue to play their power politics game and hope Trump backs down, the business of our nation moving forward (and what's best for us a nation) is put aside.

 

[superchuck500]

 

[bdb13]

I like this take from a man who has been in government:

I think seeing the rhetoric from the crazies on Facebook that's driven along by spineless and power-hungry elected officials keeps on scaring some Biden voters into believing there's some possibility that Trump manages to stay in the White House.

There isn't and he won't.

 

[DaveXA]

They are continuing to do it right now by trying to legitimize Trump's call for legal challenges and supporting him in not starting the transition.



The main reason that McConnell and the rest of the republicans on the hill are doing this isn't just to support Trump or because they actually believe there is any validity to it. They know he lost. This for them is all about the Georgia runoff. They do not want to lose power in the Senate under any circumstances. They need to win at least one of those seats to do that. To win those seats, they need Trump voters in Georgia to show up. If they piss Trump off, he can torpedo them by burning down everything on his way out and telling his voters that election doesn't matter since he won't be president. That will kill them.

But they don't really have a good option here either. They're hoping they can string this out until the states certify on Dec. 20th. And that by that time, once his legal challenges are exhausted, Trump will come around and accept the results and still support the party. That will never happen. He will not, under any circumstances, accept the results of the election. He will try and force their hand to somehow invalidate the election results. They know they can't do that. Trump is a ticking time bomb for them.

In the meantime, while Republicans continue to play their power politics game and hope Trump backs down, the business of our nation moving forward (and what's best for us a nation) is put aside.

If Trump doesn't concede within a week, or probably less...the Republican leadership needs to cut bait and move on without Trump. They have to get that out the way sooner than later. The longer they wait, the less time they have to shift the messaging if Trump goes off the deep end. I mean, he's really already there. They need to convince him that he needs to change the narrative if they're going to have a shot in GA.

 

[bdb13]

 

[bdb13]

If Trump doesn't concede within a week, or probably less...the Republican leadership needs to cut bait and move on without Trump. They have to get that out the way sooner than later. The longer they wait, the less time they have to shift the messaging if Trump goes off the deep end. I mean, he's really already there. They need to convince him that he needs to change the narrative if they're going to have a shot in GA.

Ain't happening imo

 

[superchuck500]

 

[Farb]

Nice deflection.

I asked the ‘funny name’ question just like I asked the ‘Commie-fornia’ question, because ive seen many, many instances of Republicans making fun of her name, like they made fun of the name ‘Barack’ Obama.. i said NOTHING about racism , but it’s interesting that that’s where your mind went.

However- if i offended your delicate sensibilities - then please accept my most sincere apology... And, I’ll ask again- Please help me to understand what your SPECIFIC issues would be with a Kamala Harris presidency.


*If anything about this post offends you, then i implore you to please send me a PM in order to set me straight- but dont let it distract you from answering the question I’ve posed to you.

Sure, sure. I wonder where I would get the idea you were implying racism? That never happens around here.

Yeah, you started a thread about where to move incase big mean orange man is reelected by your fellow citizens. Tell me how I am sensitive again?

 

[bdb13]

I think seeing the rhetoric from the crazies on Facebook that's driven along by spineless and power-hungry elected officials keeps on scaring some Biden voters into believing there's some possibility that Trump manages to stay in the White House.

There isn't and he won't.

So as to not short change it, let me also add the frenzy of moves within the administration by Trump here as an additional thing that causes worry. I get it. It can be worrisome.

Still, he will be leaving office.

 

[bdb13]

Got no idea where to post this at this point so here you go