Supreme Court has voted to overturn abortion rights per draft opinion (Update: Dobbs opinion official) (3 Viewers)

[LovesMusic7360]

Not long ago Kari Lake proclaimed Arizona's abortion law was a great law and wanted it the law of the state.

Now that she has gotten her way, she is lobbying for it to be repealed.

As I have been saying since 2022, the overwhelming vast majority of women aren't going to vote for the man who proudly boasts that he got rid of Roe V. Wade. Nor are those women going to vote for a forced birther politician.

Turns out, republican belief in "pro life" was all just lies to get votes. Who is surprised? I sure am not.

How many forced birthers will do the same about face?

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/other/ka ... r-BB1ltx3I.

Arizona Republican Senate candidate Kari Lake is actively lobbying state lawmakers to overturn a 160-year-old law she once supported that bans abortion in almost all cases, a source with knowledge of her efforts told CNN.

 

[eman623]

All you have to do is read the first paragraph and it destroys your whole point. Thanks for providing the proof.

I did read it. 100 million people. Two-thirds of the entire US workforce. That's not a targeted mandate. That's a blanket, "everybody do what I say" tyrant.

 

[MT15]

You are trying to pigeonhole me into some convenient box, but I'm not a square peg for you to fit into some round hole.

I'm not a Christian yet I think late term abortions are wrong. The fetus is too close to moral personhood. A newly fertilized zygote is not a person IMO, but an 8 month fetus is more than just a collection of cells, again IMO. A person's life is at stake and we need to weigh the competing interests of the mom and the baby.

But this is not about what I think, or you think, or any one person thinks. These decisions are going to be made collectively, either at the ballot box like Kansas, or in the legislature. I'm fine with however people decide.

Healthy fetuses are never aborted at 8 months. That never happens. It’s a lie that I have seen spread by anti-abortionists however.

 

[Saintamaniac]

I'm not a Christian yet I think late term abortions are wrong.

Here's a surprise for you. I am a Christian and I agree with you. However, I'm not trying to force my Christian beliefs on you or anyone else by passing laws based of my Christian beliefs that ignore you non-Christian beliefs that might be different than mine. I have no say in a Montana woman's decision to have a medical procedure that was previously legal. It is none of my business. It doesn't affect me in the least. If people don't agree with abortion, the solution is simple. Don't have a damn abortion but don't force your moral or religious beliefs on me.

You are trying to pigeonhole me into some convenient box, but I'm not a square peg for you to fit into some round hole.

I have no interest in you or what hole you feel you fit into. We are not discussing you. We are discussing your opinions and I why I and others believe you are wrong.

 

[eman623]

Here's a surprise for you. I am a Christian and I agree with you. However, I'm not trying to force my Christian beliefs on you or anyone else by passing laws based of my Christian beliefs that ignore you non-Christian beliefs that might be different than mine. I have no say in a Montana woman's decision to have a medical procedure that was previously legal. It is none of my business. It doesn't affect me in the least. If people don't agree with abortion, the solution is simple. Don't have a damn abortion but don't force your moral or religious beliefs on me.

I have no interest in you or what hole you feel you fit into. We are not discussing you. We are discussing your opinions and I why I and others believe you are wrong.

I appreciate that. My point is that opposition to abortion does not need to be based on Christian beliefs and Is not imposing one's religion on other people.

You could say the same thing about just about any other crime. The Bible says murder and theft are wrong, so is opposition to murder and theft imposing one's religious beliefs on other people? No. And neither is abortion.

 

[eman623]

Healthy fetuses are never aborted at 8 months. That never happens. It’s a lie that I have seen spread by anti-abortionists however.

It does happen sometimes, and more importantly there's a segment on the pro-choice side who thinks we shouldn't even try to regulate that. I consider them the pro-choice fringe just as extreme as the pro-life fringe that thinks the needs of a newly fertilized zygote must prevail over the wishes of the mother.

How about 24 weeks? Does that ever happen? How about we draw the line at 20 weeks? Split the proverbial pregnancy down the middle. 4 1/2 months seems like plenty of time and is actually fairly common in Europe.

 

[Saintamaniac]

The Bible says

I thought we were removing religious beliefs from this discussion? Jews believe life begins at birth so therefore, abortion prior to birth is not murder based on Judaism.

You could say the same thing about just about any other crime.

No. We can't. What other medical procedure is considered murder based on Christian beliefs? And therein lies the problem. Abortion has always been about what Christians believe is right and wrong. Personally, I believe that if a fetus can survive outside the womb, then a woman should be able to have it removed and placed in an incubator and let the state foot the rest of the cost of caring for it until it can survive outside the incubator. Either way, it's none of my business and really it's none of anyone's business except the woman and her doctor. Anti-abortionists have shown time and time again, that they don't give a damn about a child once it's born. Abortion is religious issue for the anti-abortionists. How else do you explain the resistance to birth control?

 

[eman623]

I thought we were removing religious beliefs from this discussion? Jews believe life begins at birth so therefore, abortion prior to birth is not murder based on Judaism.


No. We can't. What other medical procedure is considered murder based on Christian beliefs? And therein lies the problem. Abortion has always been about what Christians believe is right and wrong. Personally, I believe that if a fetus can survive outside the womb, then a woman should be able to have it removed and placed in an incubator and let the state foot the rest of the cost of caring for it until it can survive outside the incubator. Either way, it's none of my business and really it's none of anyone's business except the woman and her doctor. Anti-abortionists have shown time and time again, that they don't give a damn about a child once it's born. Abortion is religious issue for the anti-abortionists. How else do you explain the resistance to birth control?

I am removing religious beliefs from the discussion.

Abortion can be and is considered murder based on non-Christian beliefs. I am walking proof of that. I've tried making this point a couple times, but I'm not sure it's being heard.

You don't have to agree with that assertion, and if not, then I guess we just have to agree to disagree.

 

[Saintamaniac]

I am removing religious beliefs from the discussion.

We can agree to disagree then. I just felt that as soon as you mention the bible, you are making it about a religious belief. As I've said before, as with any other medical procedure, abortion should be based on science and science alone. If it was, then a woman would be able to get an abortion up until the fetus was able to survive outside the womb. And if science was really involved, that time would be 22-24 weeks.

 

[MT15]

It does happen sometimes, and more importantly there's a segment on the pro-choice side who thinks we shouldn't even try to regulate that. I consider them the pro-choice fringe just as extreme as the pro-life fringe that thinks the needs of a newly fertilized zygote must prevail over the wishes of the mother.

How about 24 weeks? Does that ever happen? How about we draw the line at 20 weeks? Split the proverbial pregnancy down the middle. 4 1/2 months seems like plenty of time and is actually fairly common in Europe.

NO, it doesn’t happen sometimes. Under Roe, IIRC the limit was 22 weeks. Very few abortions happen even that late, unless there is a serious fetal abnormality. No one is aborting 8 month healthy fetuses - it does not happen. If people are telling you it does happen, they are not being truthful. Doctors will not let viable fetuses die.

A late - third trimester - abortion is done most often when there is fetal demise, or serious physical abnormality - such as no brain development or another vital organ doesn’t form, or some other extremely serious medical emergency. If there is a healthy fetus during the later third trimester, they will be delivered and most likely survive just fine.

A lot of times the serious medical issues aren’t detected until about the 28 week mark. There are a fair number of women who have this heartbreaking news at about that point in gestation. All of these new laws just completely subject women to government overreach.

 

[MT15]

I am removing religious beliefs from the discussion.

Abortion can be and is considered murder based on non-Christian beliefs. I am walking proof of that. I've tried making this point a couple times, but I'm not sure it's being heard.

You don't have to agree with that assertion, and if not, then I guess we just have to agree to disagree.

What basis do you have for considering abortion murder if not religious belief? If I am reading your posts correctly, I don’t think you consider all abortions to be murder, but maybe I am wrong about that.

 

[MT15]

Well, lets be fair. You were also adamant that no one was removing breasts from healthy young women because of the trans movement and now you know they are.
You also claimed CRT was never taught in the classrooms and I was a conspiracy nut. Now we know they are.
You also claimed that gender theory is not being taught in schools but it turns out that my conspiracy was correct after all.

Now, the arguments are that 'well, everyone is happier and there are 'experts' that are making the decisions along with the minor'. Except you seem to over look the part that the 'experts' you listen to in the beginning of all this have lied to you in the about these very things and you believed them and you are just as willing to believe them again. Kind of mind boggling if you ask me.

But at least you just are not going around calling people liar all the time, so progress is welcome.

The number of teenagers is small that get breast reduction surgery. Sometimes it doesn’t even have anything to do with being trans. It’s a legitimate surgery that is done for various reasons under a physician’s care and with parental consent.

You’re still wrong about CRT, and I will bet you cannot even define it without looking it up and pasting the definition here. Gender theory is the same. Acknowledging that trans people exist isn’t teaching gender theory. Good lord, how many times Farb, how many times do you say the same incorrect crap? It’s so frustrating.

You ignored my questions - what would you do with parents, doctors and teens that have decided on a course of treatment for a condition that the teen suffers from? Are you willing to step in between the parents and doctors and the teen to dictate to them what treatment they can and cannot receive?

 

[nolaspe]

Healthy fetuses are never aborted at 8 months. That never happens. It’s a lie that I have seen spread by anti-abortionists however.

Yep, no one is getting abortions at 8 months...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2022/06/21/abortion-procedures/

 

[superchuck500]

I think this is going to continue to be a focal point - business and academia’s ability to recruit in states with such laws.

 

[zztop]

I am curious how this will turn out in a few years. If there will be a great exodus of people moving out of those states with such severe, oppressive restrictions. At least those that are able. Those who are impoverished won't have that luxury or ability.

 

[MT15]

View of Evangelical women from the inside. It’s not a super long thread but worth the read, IMO

 

[bird]

Disagree on both counts. Abortion is not a fundamental human right, and local government is almost always more aligned to the wishes of their population than a distant and bloated federal government.

Well, you have a point. An excellent illustration is the South during Jim Crow.

 

[RebSaint]

Well, you have a point. An excellent illustration is the South during Jim Crow.

Aha, yes the old Staaaaaaaaatesss Riggggghhhhhhhhhhhhtts argument. The right has used this ideological canard since before the Civil War to trample human and civil rights. Don't even entertain this silly argument, it doesn't hold any water whatsoever. It's similar to the "smaller gov't" refrain.

No worries, though right-wing politicians will still have the money to pay for abortions for their wives, girlfriends, or mistresses in states where it's still legal.

States rights lol.

 

[eman623]

Well, you have a point. An excellent illustration is the South during Jim Crow.

It's not the same thing. Not even close. There are laws and amendments that forbid "separate but equal" racial policies.

How that abortion amendment coming along? Any chance of getting it passed this year? Maybe next year.