Supreme Court has voted to overturn abortion rights per draft opinion (Update: Dobbs opinion official) (1 Viewer)

[LovesMusic7360]

Not long ago Kari Lake proclaimed Arizona's abortion law was a great law and wanted it the law of the state.

Now that she has gotten her way, she is lobbying for it to be repealed.

As I have been saying since 2022, the overwhelming vast majority of women aren't going to vote for the man who proudly boasts that he got rid of Roe V. Wade. Nor are those women going to vote for a forced birther politician.

Turns out, republican belief in "pro life" was all just lies to get votes. Who is surprised? I sure am not.

How many forced birthers will do the same about face?

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/other/ka ... r-BB1ltx3I.

Arizona Republican Senate candidate Kari Lake is actively lobbying state lawmakers to overturn a 160-year-old law she once supported that bans abortion in almost all cases, a source with knowledge of her efforts told CNN.

 

[DaveXA]

Sorry, but not every time…and it ends now….I think you are a good guy but I hate what most of Christianity has turned into and it angers me when folks try and defend it…that’s not to say that you don’t recognize it as well, just that I think it is a way more serious issue….it’s going to potentially lead to the destruction of this democracy, it’s already in full swing….


QFT….great post….

You put words in my mouth and make wrong-headed assumptions about me. Sorry, but no, I'm not defending bad behavior by Christians, but I will stand up and say they don't represent me or my faith. I never said it wasn't serious, never tried to minimize the impact of this decision. The good guy but...comments don't do much for me either. I don't make assumptions or judge people. I'd rather we have a good faith discussion and let people speak for themselves.

 

[DaveXA]

Did you have to ask permission before you had the procedure? #Sarcasm

I actually had to get permission from my insurance company at the time.

 

[DaveXA]

And what I hoped to illustrate is that the warped idea of religion, as you describe it, is nothing new. Examples abound throughout history. So at what point do we say that’s religion and the examples that afford tolerance and liberty are the exception?

And while the means of control isn’t relegated to only religion, it has been a powerful vehicle to accomplish that throughout history. Control, in various forms, certainly seems central to the Abrahamic religions, at least.

For as long as religion has been around, it's been usurped for political and geopolitical reasons. Whether it's the Abrahmic religions or Hindis or Bhuddists. Man has a long history of conflicts that predates religion. I mean, you can see territorial conflicts in nature, including primates, cats etc. It's unfortunately part of our human nature that conflicts happen regardless of religion.

The warped view of religion has existed in humanity for generations, because people are shirty all too often. It is what it is. Religion is certainly a vehicle for that all too often, but it's certainly not the origin of it. People should be responsible for their own actions and not make excuses for them.

 

[superchuck500]

You put words in my mouth and make wrong-headed assumptions about me. Sorry, but no, I'm not defending bad behavior by Christians, but I will stand up and say they don't represent me or my faith. I never said it wasn't serious, never tried to minimize the impact of this decision. The good guy but...comments don't do much for me either. I don't make assumptions or judge people. I'd rather we have a good faith discussion and let people speak for themselves.

There are whole sects of Christianity that are progressive and exactly the opposite of the what has become so bad about it. I think it’s false to throw it all on to the same fire. It’s not monolithic on these issues.

For example, the Episcopal Church has long supported both gay marriage (has ordained gay and lesbian priests) as well as a woman’s choice in reproductive health questions. The church released this statement last month about the Dobbs draft opinion:

My parents are very active in the episcopal cathedral on St. Charles Ave. and they regularly host meals for the homeless and other programs to give access to underprivileged. The church has an active gay community and is very much about the gospel of charity. And this is a “main line” sect of Christianity, not some modern hybrid.

 

[Incumbent]

For as long as religion has been around, it's been usurped for political and geopolitical reasons. Whether it's the Abrahmic religions or Hindis or Bhuddists. Man has a long history of conflicts that predates religion. I mean, you can see territorial conflicts in nature, including primates, cats etc. It's unfortunately part of our human nature that conflicts happen regardless of religion.

The warped view of religion has existed in humanity for generations, because people are shirty all too often. It is what it is. Religion is certainly a vehicle for that all too often, but it's certainly not the origin of it. People should be responsible for their own actions and not make excuses for them.

Is it really an excuse, though, when you’re talking about any belief system that sets out rigid rules under the threat of eternal damnation? To the extent such dogma perpetuates damaging stereotypes about members of the LGBT+ community, and works to strip women of their bodily autonomy? Religion, specifically Christianity, is why these battles rage on in America.

This isn’t about your personal character, but about often conflicting systems, where one requires obedience to God/church, and then repeatedly overreaches to inflict those beliefs on the unwilling, against a system that claims to aspire to individual liberty. Millions of women are again being denied bodily autonomy because of religion in America. Plain and simple. Any attempts to blame secularism for this one do not hold up.

 

[DaveXA]

Is it really an excuse, though, when you’re talking about any belief system that sets out rigid rules under the threat of eternal damnation? To the extent such dogma perpetuates damaging stereotypes about members of the LGBT+ community, and works to strip women of their bodily autonomy? Religion, specifically Christianity, is why these battles rage on in America.

This isn’t about your personal character, but about often conflicting systems, where one requires obedience to God/church, and then repeatedly overreaches to inflict those beliefs on the unwilling, against a system that claims to aspire to individual liberty. Millions of women are again being denied bodily autonomy because of religion in America. Plain and simple. Any attempts to blame secularism for this one do not hold up.

See previous post. I've said my piece.

 

[Incumbent]

See previous post. I've said my piece.

I thought I was responding to your previous post but if this is where you want to leave it, I’ll abide by that for as long as you do.

 

[DaveXA]

I thought I was responding to your previous post but if this is where you want to leave it, I’ll abide by that for as long as you do.

I do have a question though, why do you bring up the blame secularism bit when I made no mention of it?

Also, as Chuck pointed out, there are mainstream sects of Christianity that don't fit the perception of Christianity you have been going on about. What you and some others are saying strikes me as throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

 

[Incumbent]

I

I do have a question though, why do you bring up the blame secularism bit when I made no mention of it? As Chuck pointed out, there are mainstream sects of Christianity that don't fit the perception of Christianity you have been going on about. What you and some others are saying strikes me as throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

Ok, so we aren’t actually done.

Others have made the secular argument and you’ve seemed to hint at it with some of your comments - i.e., other means to control people, for example. I was just making clear that I don’t believe there is any well organized secular effort powerful enough in America to deny women their reproductive rights. This one is on Christianity.

I’ve acknowledged that I don’t hold Christianity as a monolith and I recognize there are churches and sects that aren’t representative of Christianity’s long and repressive history. For whatever reason, those more tolerant and accepting congregations haven’t been a stronger firewall against overreaching religious zealotry, either by choice or inability.

I’m comfortable in our disagreement. I’m opposed to any religious control of others in any form. It’s simply not important to me to get in the weeds of distilling good Christian / bad Christian, but rather to call out the reality that in America, the fight for liberty still has to be waged, in large part, against religious zealotry.

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

There are whole sects of Christianity that are progressive and exactly the opposite of the what has become so bad about it. I think it’s false to throw it all on to the same fire. It’s not monolithic on these issues.

For example, the Episcopal Church has long supported both gay marriage (has ordained gay and lesbian priests) as well as a woman’s choice in reproductive health questions. The church released this statement last month about the Dobbs draft opinion:

My parents are very active in the episcopal cathedral on St. Charles Ave. and they regularly host meals for the homeless and other programs to give access to underprivileged. The church has an active gay community and is very much about the gospel of charity. And this is a “main line” sect of Christianity, not some modern hybrid.

Episcopal here -- can confirm. All three of my kids were baptized by a gay priest, and our church organizes meals for homeless once a week and hosts a homeless shelter in our church for a month during the winter (we organize with other churches to rotate where they will stay during the winter).

I


Ok, so we aren’t actually done.

Others have made the secular argument and you’ve seemed to hint at it with some of your comments - i.e., other means to control people, for example. I was just making clear that I don’t believe there is any well organized secular effort powerful enough in America to deny women their reproductive rights. This one is on Christianity.

I’ve acknowledged that I don’t hold Christianity as a monolith and I recognize there are churches and sects that aren’t representative of Christianity’s long and repressive history. For whatever reason, those more tolerant and accepting congregations haven’t been a stronger firewall against overreaching religious zealotry, either by choice or inability.

I’m comfortable in our disagreement. I’m opposed to any religious control of others in any form. It’s simply not important to me to get in the weeds of distilling good Christian / bad Christian, but rather to call out the reality that in America, the fight for liberty still has to be waged, in large part, against religious zealotry.

I can also confirm what Incumbent is saying.

The problem with moderate religions is that, well, we're moderate. We've had a lot of discussions about how we are particularly bad at evangelism. We don't talk publicly about our faith. I know at least in my church there's been talk about trying to change that -- talking in public about what Jesus means to us in our lives, and that sort of thing. As well as participating as a church in helping minorities and anyone being oppressed.

We're still not very good at it though. My own kids didn't know what our churches stance is on homosexuality, equal rights and so on... mostly because they don't pay attention during the sermons, but also because the loudest voices in their sphere of influence are those pushing the most socially conservative agenda. The voice of their own church was drowned out.

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

For Conservative Christians, the End of Roe Was a Spiritual Victory

Many religious people who are opposed to abortion worked for decades to overturn Roe v. Wade. “It seems like an answer to prayer,” one said after the Supreme Court’s decision.

www.nytimes.com

"For Conservative Christians, the End of Roe Was a Spiritual Victory
June 25, 2022, 11:11 a.m. ET5 hours ago

“It is a moment of gratitude to the Lord, and gratitude to so many people, in the church and beyond the church, who have worked and prayed so hard for this day to come,” Archbishop William E. Lori said of the Supreme Court’s overturning of Roe v. Wade.Patrick Semansky/Associated Press

For nearly 50 years, conservative Christians marched, strategized and prayed. And then, on an ordinary Friday morning in June, the day they had dreamed of finally came.

Ending the constitutional right to abortion by overturning Roe v. Wade took a decades-long campaign, the culmination of potlucks in church gymnasiums and prayers in the Oval Office. It was the moment they long imagined, an outcome many refused to believe was impossible, the sign of a new America.

For many conservative believers and anti-abortion groups grounded in Catholic or evangelical principles, the Supreme Court’s decision was not just a political victory but a spiritual one."

 

[Incumbent]

Episcopal here -- can confirm. All three of my kids were baptized by a gay priest, and our church organizes meals for homeless once a week and hosts a homeless shelter in our church for a month during the winter (we organize with other churches to rotate where they will stay during the winter).




I can also confirm what Incumbent is saying.

The problem with moderate religions is that, well, we're moderate. We've had a lot of discussions about how we are particularly bad at evangelism. We don't talk publicly about our faith. I know at least in my church there's been talk about trying to change that -- talking in public about what Jesus means to us in our lives, and that sort of thing. As well as participating as a church in helping minorities and anyone being oppressed.

We're still not very good at it though. My own kids didn't know what our churches stance is on homosexuality, equal rights and so on... mostly because they don't pay attention during the sermons, but also because the loudest voices in their sphere of influence are those pushing the most socially conservative agenda. The voice of their own church was drowned out.

That’s a sensible explanation to me.

Just to reiterate, I attended a Presbyterian church that was very much like the experience you and Chuck describe. I know those congregations are out there.

 

[DaveXA]

Episcopal here -- can confirm. All three of my kids were baptized by a gay priest, and our church organizes meals for homeless once a week and hosts a homeless shelter in our church for a month during the winter (we organize with other churches to rotate where they will stay during the winter).




I can also confirm what Incumbent is saying.

The problem with moderate religions is that, well, we're moderate. We've had a lot of discussions about how we are particularly bad at evangelism. We don't talk publicly about our faith. I know at least in my church there's been talk about trying to change that -- talking in public about what Jesus means to us in our lives, and that sort of thing. As well as participating as a church in helping minorities and anyone being oppressed.

We're still not very good at it though. My own kids didn't know what our churches stance is on homosexuality, equal rights and so on... mostly because they don't pay attention during the sermons, but also because the loudest voices in their sphere of influence are those pushing the most socially conservative agenda. The voice of their own church was drowned out.

Well said. Thank you.

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

The overturning of Roe V. Wade is representative of a fracture in the wall that is supposed to separate church and state in this country.

 

[faceman]

Yeah, that's crazy. I got the vas so that my wife wouldn't need to get her tubes tied (she didn't want the procedure). I hate how poorly a lot of men treat their wives. Ugh.

I'll never forget what my HS biology teacher said. If a couple doesn't want any more children,the man should get the vas
He'll recover easily. The woman may need hormone replacement medication for the rest of her life. If there are young guys
out there reading this, please take this advice .

 

[zztop]

If republicans continue to invoke god/religion/christianity as a reason, before during and after in celebration in times like these, then it is 100% a reason/excuse/tool they have used to get these results. To me it doesn't matter if they have distorted and warped it to fork over a lot of people. Doesn't matter if it goes against the real teachings or whatever. They use it, they believe what they are doing is "true calling". We've seen this before. This distortion. Most recently when these right wing zealots call people like Liz Cheney of all people a RINO. We are now living in a world of "alternative facts" (if anyone remembers Kellyanne Conway saying that)

 

[MT15]

I’ve seen this argument several times now. I know it won’t make a difference to this SCOTUS, I fear they are corrupt beyond redemption. But I wonder if it will make a difference in the future.

 

[DaveXA]

If republicans continue to invoke god/religion/christianity as a reason, before during and after in celebration in times like these, then it is 100% a reason/excuse/tool they have used to get these results. To me it doesn't matter if they have distorted and warped it to fork over a lot of people. Doesn't matter if it goes against the real teachings or whatever. They use it, they believe what they are doing is "true calling". We've seen this before. This distortion. Most recently when these right wing zealots call people like Liz Cheney of all people a RINO. We are now living in a world of "alternative facts" (if anyone remembers Kellyanne Conway saying that)

And the aggravating thing is a lot of those idiots don't have the slightest clue what their religion teaches. Trump is probably the least religious of them all. The only reason he waves the Bible is to get votes. He doesn't believe a thing that book says.