So I went to Mexican immigration... (1 Viewer)

[SystemShock]

... To find out what papers I need to get Mexican green cards for my wife and son . The place was packed. A few 'Muricans, lots of Cubans, lots of Venezuelans, a few Salvadoreans, even one Indian.

The TV was set to a news channel, which, perhaps ironically, was showing the confrontations between Mexican riot police and a horde of people trying to breach the border from Guatemala into Chiapas, the first "caravan" of 2020, while the brand new National Guard was merely watching.

That segment was followed by the illustrious Mexican President, wearing 2 leis, a sarape, and holding a baton with color ribbons, boasting there are 4000 jobs in Chiapas and financial aid for Central Americans. Some indignant reporter shouted "what about jobs and financial aid for Mexicans?!?" After all, Chiapas is a poor State. The President was surprised by the question, he just replied "yeah, yeah" and went on with his tiresome populist message.

 

[insidejob]

Just found this article from a couple days ago about the situation at Mexico's border: https://wwl.radio.com/articles/ap-news/mexican-guardsmen-break-up-migrant-caravan-along-highway

FRONTERA HIDALGO, Mexico (AP) — Eight hundred Central American migrants were rounded up and hauled onto buses by Mexican national guardsmen and immigration agents after crossing into the country early Thursday and walking for hours along a rural highway.

The migrants had stopped for the day at a shaded crossroads when hundreds of national guard troops advanced their lines to within 100 yards (meters) of the migrants.

A brief negotiation stalled after Mexican authorities said the migrants “demanded permits for free transit through Mexico to the United States.”

The migrants knelt to the ground in prayer and began to chant “we want to pass.”

National guardsmen in riot gear advanced banging their plastic shields with batons and engaged the migrants. There was shoving and pepper spray as migrants were rounded up.

Many of the people allowed themselves to be escorted to 20 waiting buses without resistance. Women cradling small children or holding kids' hands wept as they walked toward the buses.

Others resisted and were subdued by guardsmen. One man dragged by four guardsmen shouted “they killed my brother, I don't want to die,” presumably in reference to the possibility of being returned to his country.

A woman crying as she walked toward a bus said, “I have a great need for my children.”

A paramedic attended to an injured woman lying on the highway shoulder.

The road was left littered with water bottles, plastic bags and clothing. An irate man in a blue shirt yelled at the agents “this is a war against the Hondurans," gesturing angrily.

It was a sudden climax after the day had seemed to be winding down.

Carrying U.S. and Honduran flags at the head of the procession, the migrants had been walking on a highway toward hundreds of national guardsmen since crossing the Suchiate river from Guatemala at dawn.

Jose Luis Morales, a Salvadoran de facto spokesman for the caravan, said the migrants wanted to negotiate to be allowed to pass peacefully.

It's an AP article that is just on WWL's page. Pretty long read. I didn't know they were immediately sending migrants back to their country of origin once detained in Mexico.

Serious question: I know the US is responsible for a lot of the issues that are forcing people to flee their countries in El Salvador, Honduras and Guatemala, but did Mexico also have a hand in making the situation as dire as it is now? I ask because I don't think that sending these people back to their home countries when they're fleeing because family members were raped, killed, etc., by the gangs that are basically running things is necessarily the best idea.

 

[samiam5211]

Well, this isn't exactly in line with this thread, but close enough, and closer than talking about throwing rocks...

This is a SCATHING opinion/order by the 7th district Court of Appeals, written by Esterbrook.

http://media.ca7.uscourts.gov/cgi-bin/rssExec.pl?Submit=Display&Path=Y2020%2FD01-23%2FC%3A19-1642%3AJ%3AEasterbrook%3Aaut%3AT%3AfnOp%3AN%3A2462983%3AS%3A0

I'm going to copy most of it. I do wonder how much of this "let's just ignore the courts" stuff is being attempted here? This seemed like an easy thing the board could have dealt with, answered, and still gotten there way. But they ignored it. The Judges took their earrings off... (figuratively)

Matter of Khan, which is the BIA decision that the 7th circuit disagrees with, was actually a situation where an immigration judge denied a waiver to someone in removal proceedings, and the BIA decided that the judge did not have jurisdiction to deny the waiver.

In Khan, the ruling was actually in favor of the immigrant. He was denied a waiver by the immigration judge, and the BIA said that denial was improper because the judge didn't have jurisdiction. The 7th circuit ruling says that the immigration judge had jurisdiction to deny the waiver.

 

[JimEverett]

Matter of Khan, which is the BIA decision that the 7th circuit disagrees with, was actually a situation where an immigration judge denied a waiver to someone in removal proceedings, and the BIA decided that the judge did not have jurisdiction to deny the waiver.

In Khan, the ruling was actually in favor of the immigrant. He was denied a waiver by the immigration judge, and the BIA said that denial was improper because the judge didn't have jurisdiction. The 7th circuit ruling says that the immigration judge had jurisdiction to deny the waiver.

You know more about immigration law than I do - but reading Easterbrook's opinion it seems like the 7th Circuit does not necessarily disagree with Khan - but that the lawyers for BIA did a poor job of understanding the reasoning of the 7th Circuit's memos. Seems like Easterbrook was saying the "default" (maybe poor wording by me) is that Judges do have the power to grant or not grant the waivers but you have to give me more as to why in this particular instance the Judge does not have the power.

 

[samiam5211]

You know more about immigration law than I do - but reading Easterbrook's opinion it seems like the 7th Circuit does not necessarily disagree with Khan - but that the lawyers for BIA did a poor job of understanding the reasoning of the 7th Circuit's memos. Seems like Easterbrook was saying the "default" (maybe poor wording by me) is that Judges do have the power to grant or not grant the waivers but you have to give me more as to why in this particular instance the Judge does not have the power.

You know more about courts than me, so i'm sure the above is accurate.

The main point I was trying to make was that this specific case isn't an example of the Trump admin being hard on immigrants.

I do have experience with district court judges making rulings that really screw up immigration law.

The Flores decision by the 6th circuit is a terrible decision that I deal with every day. The judge in that case, clearly didn't understand (or at least didn't care) about the ramifications of his ruling and how badly it breaks the INA. To me even the way the judge begins the ruling shows that he is being an advocate more than upholding the law. Take a look at it sometime and let me know how you feel about it, i'm generally interested in hearing what you think.

https://www.opn.ca6.uscourts.gov/opinions.pdf/13a0157p-06.pdf

For better or worse, we need comprehensive immigration reform. We've been patching the law since 1965, and between that and court rulings, it is a mess.

 

[wardorican]

You know more about immigration law than I do - but reading Easterbrook's opinion it seems like the 7th Circuit does not necessarily disagree with Khan - but that the lawyers for BIA did a poor job of understanding the reasoning of the 7th Circuit's memos. Seems like Easterbrook was saying the "default" (maybe poor wording by me) is that Judges do have the power to grant or not grant the waivers but you have to give me more as to why in this particular instance the Judge does not have the power.

I don't have all the details, but Easterbrook's opinion stated that they gave the board two options. The first was unlikely to yield anything, but the second, almost sounded like an easy out. "hey, Judges (through the AG) can only use that statute for immigrants applying to get it, not about to get kicked out". I guess they didn't want to get into that, since the AG may want to retain that ability.

But, they just straight up said, nah, you're wrong, we're ignoring it.

I can't imagine any judge dealing with that favorably.

That bit that paraphased said.."you're so lucky the immigrant in question didn't ask to hold you in contempt, because you're arses would be in jail"

Phew

 

[SystemShock]

Just found this article from a couple days ago about the situation at Mexico's border: https://wwl.radio.com/articles/ap-news/mexican-guardsmen-break-up-migrant-caravan-along-highway



It's an AP article that is just on WWL's page. Pretty long read. I didn't know they were immediately sending migrants back to their country of origin once detained in Mexico.

Serious question: I know the US is responsible for a lot of the issues that are forcing people to flee their countries in El Salvador, Honduras and Guatemala, but did Mexico also have a hand in making the situation as dire as it is now? I ask because I don't think that sending these people back to their home countries when they're fleeing because family members were raped, killed, etc., by the gangs that are basically running things is necessarily the best idea.

So, first of all, let's get one thing straight. While there are cases involving running from violence, the main reason why they want to make it to the U.S. is the exchange rate and the value given to manual labor labor in the U.S. Yes, they are poor, and their skill set is poorly paid in C.A., as well as in Mexico (that's why they refuse jobs offered in Mexico). What they make in their countries in 1 day, they can make here in 30 minutes.

As for Mexico having a hand in making the situation as dire as it is now, what is it that you think Mexico should do? Just let the horde of people take a giant dump on Mexico's laws and Mexican authorities? And of top of that, feed them, cloth them, medicate them, and transport them to the U.S. border? What is Mexico supposed to with them when the U.S. doesn't let them in? And who pays for all of that?

 

[samiam5211]

So, first of all, let's get one thing straight. While there are cases involving running from violence, the main reason why they want to make it to the U.S. is the exchange rate and the value given to manual labor labor in the U.S. Yes, they are poor, and their skill set is poorly paid in C.A., as well as in Mexico (that's why they refuse jobs offered in Mexico). What they make in their countries in 1 day, they can make here in 30 minutes.

As for Mexico having a hand in making the situation as dire as it is now, what is it that you think Mexico should do? Just let the horde of people take a giant dump on Mexico's laws and Mexican authorities? And of top of that, feed them, cloth them, medicate them, and transport them to the U.S. border? What does Mexico is supposed to with them when the U.S. doesn't let them in? And who pays for all of that?

I think the US, Canada, and Mexico need to be working in a plan to deal with the refugee crisis.

This isn’t going away, and it’s only getting g worse with Venezuelans adding to the population.

No matter how we decide to handle it, it is a North American problem because that’s where the people are heading. Blaming them, warranted or not, isn’t going to do anything. It is the same as doing nothing.

 

[dtc]

Wait what? Take people that are involved in committing crimes against the Mexican police, Mexican national guard, and potential innocent residents who happen to be in the path of their mob? Um, no thank you.

If those folks were smarter they'd make sure Trump knew they were attacking Mexicans and then he'd probably roll out the red carpet.

 

[Taurus]

Well, this isn't exactly in line with this thread, but close enough, and closer than talking about throwing rocks...

This is a SCATHING opinion/order by the 7th district Court of Appeals, written by Esterbrook.

http://media.ca7.uscourts.gov/cgi-bin/rssExec.pl?Submit=Display&Path=Y2020%2FD01-23%2FC%3A19-1642%3AJ%3AEasterbrook%3Aaut%3AT%3AfnOp%3AN%3A2462983%3AS%3A0

I'm going to copy most of it. I do wonder how much of this "let's just ignore the courts" stuff is being attempted here? This seemed like an easy thing the board could have dealt with, answered, and still gotten there way. But they ignored it. The Judges took their earrings off... (figuratively)

Sounds exactly like what I expect in Trumpland. No respect for the rule of law.

Court rules in your favor? Too bad, the agency involved is just going to ignore them.

 

[SystemShock]

I think the US, Canada, and Mexico need to be working in a plan to deal with the refugee crisis.

This isn’t going away, and it’s only getting g worse with Venezuelans adding to the population.

No matter how we decide to handle it, it is a North American problem because that’s where the people are heading. Blaming them, warranted it not, isn’t going to do anything. It is the same as doing nothing.

The only reason why Mexico is involved, is because it is an obstacle for them to reach the U.S.

They are not heading to Canada, they are not heading to Mexico. They are heading to the U.S. That's where they want to go. And they don't care if they take a giant dump on Mexico while demanding they get stuff from Mexico.

Mexico has enough poor of their own to be trying to solve the problems of the poor in C.A.

 

[donato]

And they don't care if they take a giant dump on Mexico while demanding they get stuff from Mexico.

Mexico has enough poor of their own to be trying to solve the problems of the poor in C.A.

From most of what I've read and heard it's a very tough journey for those people through Mexico. Many are taken advantage of on their journey- robbery, rape, etc., from cartels to gangs, police themselves or just locals. I don't think those making the journey are completely naive to such risks.

Personally, I find a lot of racism and discrimination between Mexicans. Many don't like Central Americans or more indigenous looking people. This is also reflected in hiring practices. Lighter skinned people very often get the better jobs/preferential treatment within Mexico. Of course there is a whole lot of that going on in the U.S. also, and around the world, so it certainly isn't exclusively a Mexican issue.

Keeping all of that in mind, it's kind of hard to be very sympathetic to Mexico on this one. I think all countries should use more resources to deal with these problems. What that means exactly I'm not sure. But there needs to be a better job regarding safety on all sides regarding immigration. In the case of Mexico that to me is both at the southern and northern borders and within Mexico.

 

[samiam5211]

The only reason why Mexico is involved, is because it is an obstacle for them to reach the U.S.

They are not heading to Canada, they are not heading to Mexico. They are heading to the U.S. That's where they want to go. And they don't care if they take a giant dump on Mexico while demanding they get stuff from Mexico.

Mexico has enough poor of their own to be trying to solve the problems of the poor in C.A.

What do you think the best answer to the problem is?

 

[SystemShock]

From most of what I've read and heard it's a very tough journey for those people through Mexico. Many are taken advantage of on their journey- robbery, rape, etc., from cartels to gangs, police themselves or just locals. I don't think those making the journey are completely naive to such risks.

You conveniently forgot their own. Just one gem:

Rescatan a migrantes hondureños secuestrados en Yucatán

La Policía Estatal de Investigación rescató a una familia de migrantes hondureños que, en su paso hacia los Estados Unidos, fue secuestrada

noticieros.televisa.com

This arrest happened somewhat close to my house. Merida is nowhere close to the path of immigrants. Yet they bring this crap to my hometown.

Personally, I find a lot of racism and discrimination between Mexicans. Many don't like Central Americans or more indigenous looking people.

They don't like Mexicans either, so?

This is also reflected in hiring practices. Lighter skinned people very often get the better jobs/preferential treatment within Mexico. Of course there is a whole lot of that going on in the U.S. also, and around the world, so it certainly isn't exclusively a Mexican issue.

Ok?

Keeping all of that in mind, it's kind of hard to be very sympathetic to Mexico on this one.

Not asking for sympathy.

I think all countries should use more resources to deal with these problems.

Why does Mexico need to use more resources to solve the problems of people who voluntarily separated from Mexico to begin with, and importantly, who don't want to be there? Mexico has their own poor. Mexico needs to deal with the problems of their own poor first.

The new President has enacted austerity measures that has seen billions of pesos taken from all sorts of programs (schools, health care, child care, education, government services, etc), which are affecting the lives of Mexicans across the country. And now you want Mexico to spend money on foreigners who don't want to be in Mexico?

What that means exactly I'm not sure. But there needs to be a better job regarding safety on all sides regarding immigration. In the case of Mexico that to me is both at the southern and northern borders and within Mexico.

Yes. And to me is simple: don't want to be in Mexico? Stay out of Mexico.

 

[samiam5211]

SystemShock,

When you say things like “people who voluntarily separated from Mexico”, it shows your not being logical about the situation.

No one alive today was around when Guatemala became independent.

 

[SystemShock]

What do you think the best answer to the problem is?

That they go South. Costa Rica is safe. Panama is safe. Both are much closer to them. Or they can go to Belize. They are too high in Belize for any real violence to occur.

As far as Mexico is concerned, to me is simple: don't want to be in Mexico? Stay out of Mexico. Don't want to follow Mexican law? We'll keep you out.

 

[donato]

I guess it’s the whole attitude that irks me. It doesn’t seem much different than the redneck at the local grocery store complaining about all the Mexicans.

 

[samiam5211]

That they go South. Costa Rica is safe. Panama is safe. Both are much closer to them. Or they can go to Belize. They are too high in Belize for any real violence to occur.

As far as Mexico is concerned, to me is simple: don't want to be in Mexico? Stay out of Mexico. Don't want to follow Mexican law? We'll keep you out.

That may be a fine solution, but how do we get those countries on board with it?

 

[SystemShock]

That may be a fine solution, but how do we get those countries on board with it?

Ask them.