Ruth Bader Ginsburg has passed (Replaced by Amy Coney Barrett)(Now Abortion Discussion) (2 Viewers)

[GrandAdmiral]

Ugh... breaking news I DID NOT want to see.

ETA: Reported on CNN.

 

[coldseat]

Do you think a parent has the right to kill a child that is born with a birth defect?

No. That is not legal. What does that have to do with what we're discussing about abortion? You about to throw in a non sequitur and move the goal post?

 

[MT15]

Can you give me a definition of a woman? What makes you a woman?

Evidently what makes me a woman in your eyes means I have no say over my own body. But you do. Or rather your religion does.

It doesn’t matter how you put it, you cannot get away from the fact that you are more than willing to impose your religious beliefs on everyone.

And as for your snarky voting comment, I think you and all the religious zealots will be surprised when you outlaw abortion even in cases of rape, incest or danger to the life of the woman, and there is a huge backlash at the polls.

Honestly, if you all were willing to be reasonable we could have a reasonable conversation about whether the limits of viability mean that the date for allowing abortions for non-medical reasons should be adjusted. But you all are going scorched earth Taliban on the issue. And this lays bare the reality that this isn’t about abortion as much as it’s about controlling women. Putting us back in our place, so to speak.

 

[SaulGoodmanEsq]

How would you compromise on murder?

By rendering unto Caesar. And accepting the fact that if it's truly 'evil' or whatever that God will presumably sort it out.

Best life advice comes from Duke Nukem:

 

[cuddlemonkey]

Well, considering Western Civilization was the first that outlawed slavery as a whole (that lasted) probably not long.
Is there still slavery present in the world today? Are those in western societies?

I don't think killing an innocent is based in religion. It is a human condition that has been in existence since human were in caves.

That's demonstrably false.

 

[MT15]

Would the shoe not fit on the other foot? By making me live in a society where parents can kill their children in the womb based on nothing but their selfishness

You have been informed, repeatedly, about the many reasons why women consider abortion, and even become so desperate that they go through with it. Abortion is almost NEVER based only on convenience or selfishness. Abortions happen because women have desperate situations, or are in physical and/or psychological danger. They have no support systems, or they were raped or the victim of incest or sexual abuse. They have medical conditions which make pregnancy especially risky. They are drug addicts in an abusive domestic situation.

They each have the right to make their own decisions, about their own bodies and their future. They will have to deal with the consequences spiritually, and you don’t get to play God by judging them or making their decisions for them. Especially from your smug moral high horse.

You are fine with demonizing these women. You make them the ”other”, you judge their motives without knowing anything about them. Even when they are the victim of a crime, you wish to punish them further. This is how I know you don’t really care about women, at all, and see them as somehow less deserving of rights.

If we as a society would work to make these situations for women tenable, the rate of abortion would continue to drop. But by outlawing abortion, without working to help these women, we will only be increasing the general misery and poverty for these women.

It’s so easy for you to claim the moral high ground with almost zero understanding of what you are talking about. People who have no ability to understand what other people are going through are able to support atrocities.

 

[zztop]

tell me you don't really care what happens to women without telling me you don't care what happens to women

Abortion ban after 15 weeks signed into law in Florida

Florida will soon ban abortions after 15 weeks. Gov. Ron DeSantis signed the law on Thursday; it goes into effect on July 1.

apnews.com

It does not allow for exemptions in cases where pregnancies were caused by rape, incest or human trafficking

 

[Farb]

Read it again. That's what  you're saying. And if you think it's idiotic, I don't disagree.

But if that's not what you think, then you should have no problem giving the definition you use to recognise women that doesn't depend on seeing their genitals.

It's a bit weird that you can't, since you keep insisting it's so easy.

I think it is a bit wierd that you still won't honestly engage. I have answered your question, but yet you refuse to answer the same question.

It is all good. I know you can't give a answer because your woke religion won't allow it.

You know what is strange, up until 4 years ago, the definition of a woman was a constant through human history and no one needed a 'working definition' to identify a woman. That should tell you how stupid the argument of a man being a woman because of his feels is.
I have no trouble identifying women in the wild. I was married to one. My mother is one. My sisters are women. I am attracted to women. The fact that you cannot recognize a woman without a leftist definition is a sad testament to your ability to observe reality.

I guess the whole good faith argument rule we have here only applies to conservatives. I am disappointed but I guess I am not really surprised.

If you want to have continue this discussion or any other discussion please prove your are working in good faith and supply a definition of what you believe a woman to be.

 

[Farb]

By rendering unto Caesar. And accepting the fact that if it's truly 'evil' or whatever that God will presumably sort it out.

Best life advice comes from Duke Nukem:

I thought violence was never the answer?

Do you not believe that people should stand up to evil when they see and it and protect those that cannot protect themselves?

 

[Farb]

Evidently what makes me a woman in your eyes means I have no say over my own body. But you do. Or rather your religion does.

It doesn’t matter how you put it, you cannot get away from the fact that you are more than willing to impose your religious beliefs on everyone.

And as for your snarky voting comment, I think you and all the religious zealots will be surprised when you outlaw abortion even in cases of rape, incest or danger to the life of the woman, and there is a huge backlash at the polls.

Honestly, if you all were willing to be reasonable we could have a reasonable conversation about whether the limits of viability mean that the date for allowing abortions for non-medical reasons should be adjusted. But you all are going scorched earth Taliban on the issue. And this lays bare the reality that this isn’t about abortion as much as it’s about controlling women. Putting us back in our place, so to speak.

I have been arguing in good faith.

If I think allowing an abortion in cases of rape and incest (super duper rare) then would I be trying to protect innocent life? Because of the sins of the father or mother, an innocent life should be taken? That would inconsistent with my religious views. However, my political views would allow a place for that. That is my delima and I think I have made that perfectly clear.

The way the left acts like becoming pregnant is an accident is proof that those that seek abortions are not mature enough to have sex to being with.

Since you claim I want to put women back in their place, that can not be correct could it? Can only women get pregnant?

 

[Farb]

You have been informed, repeatedly, about the many reasons why women consider abortion, and even become so desperate that they go through with it. Abortion is almost NEVER based only on convenience or selfishness. Abortions happen because women have desperate situations, or are in physical and/or psychological danger. They have no support systems, or they were raped or the victim of incest or sexual abuse. They have medical conditions which make pregnancy especially risky. They are drug addicts in an abusive domestic situation.

They each have the right to make their own decisions, about their own bodies and their future. They will have to deal with the consequences spiritually, and you don’t get to play God by judging them or making their decisions for them. Especially from your smug moral high horse.

You are fine with demonizing these women. You make them the ”other”, you judge their motives without knowing anything about them. Even when they are the victim of a crime, you wish to punish them further. This is how I know you don’t really care about women, at all, and see them as somehow less deserving of rights.

If we as a society would work to make these situations for women tenable, the rate of abortion would continue to drop. But by outlawing abortion, without working to help these women, we will only be increasing the general misery and poverty for these women.

It’s so easy for you to claim the moral high ground with almost zero understanding of what you are talking about. People who have no ability to understand what other people are going through are able to support atrocities.

You use the term 'woman' a lot in there. Can only women become pregnant?

 

[Farb]

tell me you don't really care what happens to women without telling me you don't care what happens to women

Abortion ban after 15 weeks signed into law in Florida

Florida will soon ban abortions after 15 weeks. Gov. Ron DeSantis signed the law on Thursday; it goes into effect on July 1.

apnews.com

It does not allow for exemptions in cases where pregnancies were caused by rape, incest or human trafficking

Should the child be punished by death because of the sins committed by others?

 

[Farb]

That's demonstrably false.

Ok, what civilization outlawed before the West?

 

[Farb]

Evidently what makes me a woman in your eyes means I have no say over my own body. But you do. Or rather your religion does.

It doesn’t matter how you put it, you cannot get away from the fact that you are more than willing to impose your religious beliefs on everyone.

And as for your snarky voting comment, I think you and all the religious zealots will be surprised when you outlaw abortion even in cases of rape, incest or danger to the life of the woman, and there is a huge backlash at the polls.

Honestly, if you all were willing to be reasonable we could have a reasonable conversation about whether the limits of viability mean that the date for allowing abortions for non-medical reasons should be adjusted. But you all are going scorched earth Taliban on the issue. And this lays bare the reality that this isn’t about abortion as much as it’s about controlling women. Putting us back in our place, so to speak.

I also asked what makes you a woman, not what I think. I have provided my answer several times with links. I am asking you, as a woman, what makes you a woman in your eyes?

 

[coldseat]

I also asked what makes you a woman, not what I think. I have provided my answer several times with links. I am asking you, as a woman, what makes you a woman in your eyes?

This whole "define woman" thing is ridiculous in the the way only conservatives can be.

There are woman who are born biologically female, and can reproduce (the vast majority). There are woman who are born biologically female but can't reproduce. There are woman who are intersex or have different chromosomal makeups. There are woman who are born biologically male but identify as woman.

The easiest way to to tell if you can't put it together by how they present themselves, is to politely ask how they identify. Assuming it's a matter of importance, otherwise, just mind your own business.

 

[MT15]

I also asked what makes you a woman, not what I think. I have provided my answer several times with links. I am asking you, as a woman, what makes you a woman in your eyes?

You haven’t provided your answer, not at all, except for one time when you mentioned genitals. How do you recognize a person that you meet is a woman? This is what was asked and never answered. The whole point of this sophomoric line of debate is an attempt at a gotcha from your side. Nobody on your side will answer the question either. So I’m not going to play your games.

Coldseat gave a great response. Refer to that.

 

[SaulGoodmanEsq]

I thought violence was never the answer?

Do you not believe that people should stand up to evil when they see and it and protect those that cannot protect themselves?

I put 'evil' in quotes because it's subjective. I don't think abortion is a good thing but I think the state controlling a woman's body is infinitely worse. The world is not black and white. I appreciate you believe this particular topic to be, but I don't. I'll let whatever higher power is out there -- if at all -- judge me and not other people based on their own personal beliefs that I don't subscribe to.

The state should be purely secular.

 

[coldseat]

I put 'evil' in quotes because it's subjective. I don't think abortion is a good thing but I think the state controlling a woman's body is infinitely worse. The world is not black and white. I appreciate you believe this particular topic to be, but I don't. I'll let whatever higher power is out there -- if at all -- judge me and not other people based on their own personal beliefs that I don't subscribe to.

The state should be purely secular.

That's the thing about this abortion debate that is frustrating. If @Farb or any other conservative where to have a conversation with me about "abortion" and not "abortion rights", my thoughts and the conversation would be very different. I don't really support abortion itself. If a woman, for whatever reason, would come to me seek my counsel about getting an abortion, I would likely and naturally try to persuade them against it on a personal level. I believe that abortion can leave long lasting emotional scars for woman as it is the termination of a natural process. And I think it is possible that a woman can carry a life long regret of having one in their youth. I'm much more in favor of preventive measure such as good sex education, relationship education, and easily obtainable/free preventive measure for people who are sexually active. All which have been proven to reduce abortions. I'm also in favor of support for woman who have crisis pregnancies to help them make the choice to carry their baby to term and making it easier to raise a family by making child care and other needs much more affordable.

A lot of my beliefs come from my years of being a practicing Catholic. I actually believe that a holistic consistent pro-life approach is better for our society, even if I don't think it's entirely possible.

The dividing line for me comes in forcing others to live by my beliefs. Especially when it comes to abortion and has to do with woman, since I will never have to be in their place. It also comes from the realization that just because I believe something, doesn't always make it true. In other words, I don't know that if a woman does decide to have an abortion, their life won't be better because of it. An argument can be made that it may be better. But most importantly, I recognize that a lot of what I believe about abortion comes from previously believing that the baby in the mother's womb was injected with a soul at conception and that an abortion is an afront to God's grace. At the base, that was my true objection to abortion when I used to vote for only Republicans decades ago. But even back then, I always recognized how religious leaders and Republicans used this issue to force religious voters into a monolithic block that only cared about one issue. Eventually I decided I couldn't be a pawn any longer.

 

[Farb]

This whole "define woman" thing is ridiculous in the the way only conservatives can be.

There are woman who are born biologically female, and can reproduce (the vast majority). There are woman who are born biologically female but can't reproduce. There are woman who are intersex or have different chromosomal makeups. There are woman who are born biologically male but identify as woman.

The easiest way to to tell if you can't put it together by how they present themselves, is to politely ask how they identify. Assuming it's a matter of importance, otherwise, just mind your own business.

Right. They identify as a woman. So, what is a woman? It is really simple and the mental gymnastics to avoid a basic human truth is hilarious but also very depressing.