Ruth Bader Ginsburg has passed (Replaced by Amy Coney Barrett)(Now Abortion Discussion) (2 Viewers)

[GrandAdmiral]

Ugh... breaking news I DID NOT want to see.

ETA: Reported on CNN.

 

[MT15]

if it’s so simple, how do you know that someone standing next to you is a woman?

 

[Farb]

You haven’t provided your answer, not at all, except for one time when you mentioned genitals. How do you recognize a person that you meet is a woman? This is what was asked and never answered. The whole point of this sophomoric line of debate is an attempt at a gotcha from your side. Nobody on your side will answer the question either. So I’m not going to play your games.

Coldseat gave a great response. Refer to that.

I recognize a woman like humans have recognized women from the beginning of time. When I see an adult female human, I think "that is a woman". The fact that you have to solve a mind puzzle to identify what is right in from of you is more telling of your woke religion.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/woman

Definition of woman​

1a: an adult female person

Here is the definition of all the words in the definition of 'woman'

Female:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/female

1a(1): of, relating to, or being the sex that typically has the capacity to bear young or produce eggs

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/adult

Adult:

1: fully developed and mature

Person:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/person

1: HUMAN, INDIVIDUAL

 

[Farb]

if it’s so simple, how do you know that someone standing next to you is a woman?

If I were blind, that might be more difficult but I think I could tell by their face or adams apple. Otherwise, I would use the time tested and true method of looking at them.

For the sake of honest debate and I have given my answer in detail, what is a woman to you?

 

[cuddlemonkey]

Ok, what civilization outlawed before the West?

You misunderstand. I am saying that your claim is demonstrably untrue because it's such a broad and complex subject that you can't make definitive claims about who outlawed it first and made it last.

 

[Farb]

That's the thing about this abortion debate that is frustrating. If @Farb or any other conservative where to have a conversation with me about "abortion" and not "abortion rights", my thoughts and the conversation would be very different. I don't really support abortion itself. If a woman, for whatever reason, would come to me seek my counsel about getting an abortion, I would likely and naturally try to persuade them against it on a personal level. I believe that abortion can leave long lasting emotional scars for woman as it is the termination of a natural process. And I think it is possible that a woman can carry a life long regret of having one in their youth. I'm much more in favor to preventive measure such as good sexy education, relationship education, and easily obtainable/free preventive measure for people who are sexually active. All which have been proven to reduce abortions. I'm also in favor of support for woman who have crisis pregnancies to help them make the choice to keep carry their baby and making easier to raise a family by making child care and other needs much more affordable.

A lot of my beliefs come from my years of being a practicing Catholic. I actually believe that a holistic consistent pro-life approach is better for our society, even if I don't think it's entirely possible.

The dividing line for me comes in forcing others to live by my beliefs. Especially when it comes to abortion and has to do with woman, since I will never have to be in their place. It also comes from the realization that just because I believe something, doesn't always make it true. In other words, I don't know that if a woman does decide to have an abortion, their life won't be better because of it. An argument can be made that it may be better. But most importantly, I recognize that a lot of what I believe about abortion comes from previously believing that the baby in the mother's womb was injected with a soul at conception and that an abortion is an afront to God's grace. At the base, that was my true objection to abortion when I used to vote for only Republicans decades ago. But even back then, I always recognized how religious leaders and Republicans used this issue to force religious voters into a monolithic block that only cared about one issue. Eventually I decided I couldn't be a pawn any longer.

That was a great post. Well said and I agree a lot with you said. Obviously, I disagree with some as well, but well thought out and honest post. Thanks for that.

 

[MT15]

Farb: I can assure you that if you stood next to a trans woman who transitioned after using puberty blockers your idea that you can tell by external clues is not true. They will not have gone through puberty and will not have the external clues you are depending on. So this idea that you can just “tell” by looking is just fantasy.

I think you have to acknowledge that trans people exist and they should be accorded common decency and respect as well as empathy for their struggles. They didn’t ask for any of it, they were born the way they are. The least we can do, as fellow humans, is accord them that.

 

[coldseat]

Right. They identify as a woman. So, what is a woman? It is really simple and the mental gymnastics to avoid a basic human truth is hilarious but also very depressing.

There's no mental gymnastics there. Just a simple, understandable explanation that you asked for over and over.

I whole heartedly believe that there are people who are born who's biological sex does not conform with their gender. In fact I know this to be true because of my own experience of being born male, being a biological male, yet also being attracted sexually to men. Our (as in human) reality doesn't always line up with biological norms or biological imperatives.

 

[Farb]

Farb: I can assure you that if you stood next to a trans woman who transitioned after using puberty blockers your idea that you can tell by external clues is not true. They will not have gone through puberty and will not have the external clues you are depending on. So this idea that you can just “tell” by looking is just fantasy.

I think you have to acknowledge that trans people exist and they should be accorded common decency and respect as well as empathy for their struggles. They didn’t ask for any of it, they were born the way they are. The least we can do, as fellow humans, is accord them that.

When have I ever said they don't exist? But I do want to expand on this a bit.

At what age did the person in question begin puberty blockers? Is this person a biological female or male? Reason I ask is because if male, the Adams apple would be present would it not?

Yes, there are people that are born with a hard to determine sexual appearance. Ever seen Pat from SNL? There is a reason that was a funny skit, why do you think that was?

I have no problem with a trans person, I just don't need that person feeling like he/she has to tell everyone and demand that my reality changes because they demand self affirmation. I also don't think young children should be discussing this with an adult that is not a parent or guardian. Especially in a school setting. Empathy has nothing to do with any of it.

 

[Farb]

There's no mental gymnastics there. Just a simple, understandable explanation that you asked for over and over.

I whole heartedly believe that there are people who are born who's biological sex does not conform with their gender. In fact I know this to be true because of my own experience of being born male, being a biological male, yet also being attracted sexually to men. Our (as in human) reality doesn't always line up with biological norms or biological imperatives.

I agree with everything you said. It is all correct in mind.
The point we venture down different paths is as I explained, or tried to explain to MT. Once you demand that I alter reality and social norms due to someone's need for self affirmation and also have that discussion with my child, that is where I stop being an ally or whatever is the new word.

Do what you want, dress like you want, have all the medical procedures you want, just don't shame me to alter my reality for your self affirmation and leave my kids out of it.

 

[RobF]

I think it is a bit wierd that you still won't honestly engage. I have answered your question, but yet you refuse to answer the same question.

You claim that women can be defined trivially. I don't. So it's on you to provide this trivial definition that's applicable in all the contexts in which women exist.

All I would have to do is demonstrate that any such trivial definition provided is inadequate. Which is what we've just been doing. You just haven't realised, apparently.

I have no trouble identifying women in the wild. I was married to one. My mother is one. My sisters are women. I am attracted to women.

You'd think you'd be aware that women aren't defined simply by genitals and baby-making then.

The fact that you cannot recognize a woman without a leftist definition is a sad testament to your ability to observe reality.

As mental gymnastics goes, that's a heck of a faceplant.

I guess the whole good faith argument rule we have here only applies to conservatives. I am disappointed but I guess I am not really surprised.

If you want to have continue this discussion or any other discussion please prove your are working in good faith and supply a definition of what you believe a woman to be.

See above.

For more information, please reread.

 

[MT15]

When have I ever said they don't exist? But I do want to expand on this a bit.

At what age did the person in question begin puberty blockers? Is this person a biological female or male? Reason I ask is because if male, the Adams apple would be present would it not?

Yes, there are people that are born with a hard to determine sexual appearance. Ever seen Pat from SNL? There is a reason that was a funny skit, why do you think that was?

I have no problem with a trans person, I just don't need that person feeling like he/she has to tell everyone and demand that my reality changes because they demand self affirmation. I also don't think young children should be discussing this with an adult that is not a parent or guardian. Especially in a school setting. Empathy has nothing to do with any of it.

The prominence of the Adam’s Apple comes about with puberty and the hormonal changes. So if a biological male took puberty blockers, these hormonal changes wouldn’t happen as long as they are on them. Once they reach 18 and decide to transition, then they can take female hormones and will essentially go through female puberty. But I am far from an expert on this.

I just don‘t think calling people by the name they want to be called by and referring to them by the pronouns they prefer is too much to ask. It certainly doesn’t affect me personally nor does it alter my reality. And I do think insisting on calling them by their birth name and birth gender while insisting they not be discussed at all in a school setting is denying they exist in a way. I think if it were me, I would feel like people wanted me to disappear with that treatment.

 

[Farb]

You claim that women can be defined trivially. I don't. So it's on you to provide this trivial definition that's applicable in all the contexts in which women exist.

All I would have to do is demonstrate that any such trivial definition provided is inadequate. Which is what we've just been doing. You just haven't realised, apparently.


You'd think you'd be aware that women aren't defined simply by genitals and baby-making then.


As mental gymnastics goes, that's a heck of a faceplant.


See above.

For more information, please reread.

Well, it was fun. I will engage with you when you can hold an honest discussion and not make up things that I didn't say.

For the record, I asked for your definition of a woman, you didn't give it but asked mine. I gave mine, several times and then asked for yours. You have yet to give it but only tell me mine is wrong. LOL. Yeah, good talk.

 

[Farb]

The prominence of the Adam’s Apple comes about with puberty and the hormonal changes. So if a biological male took puberty blockers, these hormonal changes wouldn’t happen as long as they are on them. Once they reach 18 and decide to transition, then they can take female hormones and will essentially go through female puberty. But I am far from an expert on this.

I just don‘t think calling people by the name they want to be called by and referring to them by the pronouns they prefer is too much to ask. It certainly doesn’t affect me personally nor does it alter my reality. And I do think insisting on calling them by their birth name and birth gender while insisting they not be discussed at all in a school setting is denying they exist in a way. I think if it were me, I would feel like people wanted me to disappear with that treatment.

Do we know the effect of puberty blockers? I don't think we do at this point.

I dont think 5 year olds need to hear about any of it. If the teacher is trans and has to discuss this with young kids, that teacher should find a new job. If you are so unsure that you have to have your gender affirmed by children, that is also on you. If someone calls me a woman I would not care because I am comfortable. For being sound loud and proud, the trans community sure does need a lot of affirmation.

 

[V Chip]

If I were blind, that might be more difficult but I think I could tell by their face or adams apple. Otherwise, I would use the time tested and true method of looking at them.

For the sake of honest debate and I have given my answer in detail, what is a woman to you?

Take this quiz and see.

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[Lapaz]

That is exactly the answer. The fact that you tell me it not an answer and need more leftist talking points added tells me it is the correct answer.

If that is incorrect, you must know the correct answer, correct? So, what is the correct answer?

First step to see if a human is female
1. Genitalia
2. Birthing of another human

That is about it. Your turn.

Genitalia is all that I believe is needed to determine gender, but my point was a Justice should not have to pre-define what a woman is, because that is up to lawyers if a case requires it. If there was a case that challenged the definition of a woman, then it would be necessary to listen to definitions. Whether there are transgender bathrooms, or activities for people with questionable genders, then the definitions would matter, but the judge shouldn’t have to prejudge what may be causing questions. I think liberals consider people with vaginas to be women, and those with penises to be male. However nowadays there are also people that were previously women or men, but are transgender, and many conservatives don’t recognize those definitions. Having a baby doesn’t make you a woman, because some can’t have babies, and rarely a woman is born without a uterus. Do you accept my definition? I suspect not, and a judge needs to listen to your argument, so he shouldn’t pre-define before a case is before him.

 

[MT15]

Do we know the effect of puberty blockers? I don't think we do at this point.

they’ve been used since 1993, so they’re not exactly new.

 

[Farb]

Genitalia is all that I believe is needed to determine gender, but my point was a Justice should not have to pre-define what a woman is, because that is up to lawyers if a case requires it. If there was a case that challenged the definition of a woman, then it would be necessary to listen to definitions. Whether there are transgender bathrooms, or activities for people with questionable genders, then the definitions would matter, but the judge shouldn’t have to prejudge what may be causing questions. I think liberals consider people with vaginas to be women, and those with penises to be male. However nowadays there are also people that were previously women or men, but are transgender, and many conservatives don’t recognize those definitions. Having a baby doesn’t make you a woman, because some can’t have babies, and rarely a woman is born without a uterus. Do you accept my definition? I suspect not, and a judge needs to listen to your argument, so he shouldn’t pre-define before a case is before him.

I understand where you are coming from. You said not all women can have babies, that is true. Can only women have babies? Can a man have a baby?

 

[Farb]

they’ve been used since 1993, so they’re not exactly new.

Do we have long data on their effectiveness and possible side effects?