Ruth Bader Ginsburg has passed (Replaced by Amy Coney Barrett)(Now Abortion Discussion) (1 Viewer)

[GrandAdmiral]

Ugh... breaking news I DID NOT want to see.

ETA: Reported on CNN.

 

[coldseat]

Are you saying the only people who believe a human life begin at conception are religious people and those beliefs are only founded in religion?

When, in your opinion is a human life viable?

I'm not going to say "only", because there are a lot of people with a lot of different beliefs, but almost entirely that is a belief born out of religious interpretation. Especially in regards to the fetus' soul, which is what most people who oppose abortion rights care about.

It's not really my opinion, just medical science, but at about 24 weeks of gustation.

 

[cuddlemonkey]

When do you think, if at all, should abortion be made illegal or when, in your opinion do you think the baby becomes a human life?

I will be glad to answer that just as soon as you answer the question you keep dodging. You have been shown that Plan B is definitely not abortion. Do you still hold to your opinion that it is or has that opinion changed?

 

[MT15]

No one is forcing anyone. Do you think your daughter would prefer to spend 3 days or kill her child? Hard question but this is a tough subject.

If you don't want to go through childbirth or support a child for 18years, then don't do the nasty. If you do the nasty and you get pregnant then that is what happens. This has been true ever since we were in caves. Bad decisions have consequences, that is life. I am also willing to bet that anyone that has a child and raises, no matter how tought it was, sure is glad they didn't kill their kid later in life.

You said, responding to the lady who had a nearly fatal heart attack and my daughter who was hospitalized because she was at heightened risk for having a stroke, “if you do the nasty and get pregnant this is what happens”.

You seem to be saying that women dying or having serious health complications is “oh well, they shouldn’t have gotten pregnant if they don’t want to run the risk”. Which is sort of counter to your other claim that pregnancy and childbirth is no big deal and that abortion is riskier, which is the exact opposite of the truth by a factor or 20x or so.

You have no problem with thinking of women dying and just shrugging your shoulders. You seem to me to hold women’s lives in lower regard than their fetuses. You judge women harshly, and talk about them in a demeaning manner. You seem to think that all women who have abortions do so because they can’t keep their legs closed, you have expressed that thought multiple times. It’s demeaning to women.

You cannot imagine or empathize with a woman who just found out her fetus has a fatal defect which is not detected until about 20 weeks in many cases. You cannot imagine a woman being so desperate to leave an abusive partner that she would consider not carrying her pregnancy to term, because if she lets him know she is pregnant, statistically her life is at grave risk.

It is nobody’s business except the woman, her doctor, and her god, if she believes in one. You can believe abortion is a sin, but you cannot take away a woman’s free will and control over her body. If you take away a woman’s bodily autonomy, you are taking away her standing as a full person. Not even God takes away our free will.

The desire to control a woman‘s free will is the biggest indication that you don’t consider women to be equal to men that there could ever be. To take away a person’s free will is a subjugation of that person.

You would take away that free will, that status as a fully realized person. That’s what I think about your attitude toward women.

 

[V Chip]

Then you would have no reason to oppose a cut off limit for an abortion? Say when the procedure itself has to do with spinal cords and limbs?

Sure I would. I don't think it is a matter for people outside of those directly affected. The woman, her doctor(s), whoever she decides to consult -- that's about it. Nobody else should be involved in that decision and definitely not politicians.

 

[V Chip]

When do you think, if at all, should abortion be made illegal or when, in your opinion do you think the baby becomes a human life?

An answer to that lies in the answer to the following related question:

When do you think, if at all, should the government or some other entity be allowed to remove an in-utero fetus from a woman against her will?

 

[Bigdaddysaints]

Explain how the miscarriage happened. Flight of stairs, drugs, natural? That will go along way for you to work this out in your head.

Do you think a parent should be charged if they were involved in a car accident (they were also speeding) and their child who is buckled in dies in wreck, should be charged? You should by this line of thinking.

What about if the child wasn't buckled or in a car seat? Could she be charged with neglect homicide? What about if she wasn't wearing her seatbelt and the accident caused her to miscarry? Should she be charged with the same? Even if she was only 4 weeks pregnant?

 

[Lapaz]

I'm not going to say "only", because there are a lot of people with a lot of different beliefs, but almost entirely that is a belief born out of religious interpretation. Especially in regards to the fetus' soul, which is what most people who oppose abortion rights care about.

It's not really my opinion, just medical science, but at about 24 weeks of gustation.

Well, I may be very rare, since I'm not religious, but I believe that human life begins at conception, however I still believe abortion should be legal at least until viability. Viability will continue to shorten as technology improves, but my reasoning for believing in abortion rights, despite believing it is a live being, is that women shouldn't be obligated to carry a fetus, just because it can't survive outside of her body. That is like forcing her to be an incubator. If some day viability can be reduced to essentially after conception, I believe there should still need to be an allowance for people that don't want those children. It wouldn't have to be an abortion if the fetus is put into an incubator, but those unwanted children will have to be taken care of by the state, and it will create a huge burden to the state. Not only should the state pay for that incubator, but then it will need to care for those orphans. Rather than going down that road, it would be better to allow women to continue to get abortions at least through the first trimester, regardless of viability.

 

[SamAndreas]

Well, I may be very rare, since I'm not religious, but I believe that human life begins at conception, however I still believe abortion should be legal at least until viability. Viability will continue to shorten as technology improves, but my reasoning for believing in abortion rights, despite believing it is a live being, is that women shouldn't be obligated to carry a fetus, just because it can't survive outside of her body. That is like forcing her to be an incubator. If some day viability can be reduced to essentially after conception, I believe there should still need to be an allowance for people that don't want those children. It wouldn't have to be an abortion if the fetus is put into an incubator, but those unwanted children will have to be taken care of by the state, and it will create a huge burden to the state. Not only should the state pay for that incubator, but then it will need to care for those orphans. Rather than going down that road, it would be better to allow women to continue to get abortions at least through the first trimester, regardless of viability.

Your view has basis of history. Jails, then prisons replaced a village turning out to conduct a stoning once the village was able to afford it.

Brutality goes along hand in hand with poverty.

 

[Farb]

I will be glad to answer that just as soon as you answer the question you keep dodging. You have been shown that Plan B is definitely not abortion. Do you still hold to your opinion that it is or has that opinion changed?

Why would I think you would actually answer if I played along based on your past exchanges in this thread.

Obviously the discussion with you only goes one way.

 

[Farb]

You said, responding to the lady who had a nearly fatal heart attack and my daughter who was hospitalized because she was at heightened risk for having a stroke, “if you do the nasty and get pregnant this is what happens”.

You seem to be saying that women dying or having serious health complications is “oh well, they shouldn’t have gotten pregnant if they don’t want to run the risk”. Which is sort of counter to your other claim that pregnancy and childbirth is no big deal and that abortion is riskier, which is the exact opposite of the truth by a factor or 20x or so.

You have no problem with thinking of women dying and just shrugging your shoulders. You seem to me to hold women’s lives in lower regard than their fetuses. You judge women harshly, and talk about them in a demeaning manner. You seem to think that all women who have abortions do so because they can’t keep their legs closed, you have expressed that thought multiple times. It’s demeaning to women.

You cannot imagine or empathize with a woman who just found out her fetus has a fatal defect which is not detected until about 20 weeks in many cases. You cannot imagine a woman being so desperate to leave an abusive partner that she would consider not carrying her pregnancy to term, because if she lets him know she is pregnant, statistically her life is at grave risk.

It is nobody’s business except the woman, her doctor, and her god, if she believes in one. You can believe abortion is a sin, but you cannot take away a woman’s free will and control over her body. If you take away a woman’s bodily autonomy, you are taking away her standing as a full person. Not even God takes away our free will.

The desire to control a woman‘s free will is the biggest indication that you don’t consider women to be equal to men that there could ever be. To take away a person’s free will is a subjugation of that person.

You would take away that free will, that status as a fully realized person. That’s what I think about your attitude toward women.

If it makes you feel better, I shrug my shoulders if a man dies too. I lack....checking notes for the new word that is all the rage on the left.......'empathy'.

If anyone dies, it is a tragedy, especially for those that know them. Life is hard. People die. Should we want to take as many 'souls' with us when we die?

Does free will apply when the parents decide to have to have sex, or only bad stuff?

 

[Farb]

An answer to that lies in the answer to the following related question:

When do you think, if at all, should the government or some other entity be allowed to remove an in-utero fetus from a woman against her will?

against her will? Never.

 

[Farb]

What about if the child wasn't buckled or in a car seat? Could she be charged with neglect homicide? What about if she wasn't wearing her seatbelt and the accident caused her to miscarry? Should she be charged with the same? Even if she was only 4 weeks pregnant?

Are there current laws? I honestly don't know and I am too lazy to look it up. I think intent would play a large part.

 

[cuddlemonkey]

Why would I think you would actually answer if I played along based on your past exchanges in this thread.

Obviously the discussion with you only goes one way.

Because I'm not the guy that is trying to change the topic to avoid answering a simple question? Yes or no, Farb, do you still believe that Plan B is an abortifacient?

 

[cuddlemonkey]

Why would I think you would actually answer if I played along based on your past exchanges in this thread.

Obviously the discussion with you only goes one way.

Maybe because I just did in another thread where you answered a question. You can LOL all you want, but all it does is highlight your unwillingness to actually engage.

 

[V Chip]

against her will? Never.

Then abortion should never be illegal. The fetus would become a person when it is no longer inside the uterus of the woman.

If a woman doesn’t want to go through with a pregnancy, there are many ways she can terminate that pregnancy. Abortion is the safest of all the ways that can occur. When abortion was illegal, women still terminated pregnancies through various other means, some of which also terminated her life. The only way to guarantee the fetus isn’t terminated is to either force a woman to be an incubator until birth occurs naturally, or by forcibly removing a fetus from the mother (against her will or with her consent). If she doesn’t want to remain pregnant until medical or natural viability and then consent to removal of the fetus, she becomes a prisoner of the state either by having an abortion or being imprisoned and forced to carry the fetus to term or viability then having the fetus removed against her will.

 

[Farb]

Then abortion should never be illegal. The fetus would become a person when it is no longer inside the uterus of the woman.

If a woman doesn’t want to go through with a pregnancy, there are many ways she can terminate that pregnancy. Abortion is the safest of all the ways that can occur. When abortion was illegal, women still terminated pregnancies through various other means, some of which also terminated her life. The only way to guarantee the fetus isn’t terminated is to either force a woman to be an incubator until birth occurs naturally, or by forcibly removing a fetus from the mother (against her will or with her consent). If she doesn’t want to remain pregnant until medical or natural viability and then consent to removal of the fetus, she becomes a prisoner of the state either by having an abortion or being imprisoned and forced to carry the fetus to term or viability then having the fetus removed against her will.

How did she become pregnant? Was it through her actions or did sperm fly into her while she was walking down the street? To act like becoming pregnant just happens is silly and part of the reason a middle ground can't be reached.
We need to stop incentivizing bad behavior.

 

[V Chip]

How did she become pregnant? Was it through her actions or did sperm fly into her while she was walking down the street? To act like becoming pregnant just happens is silly and part of the reason a middle ground can't be reached.
We need to stop incentivizing bad behavior.

How in the world does keeping abortion legal incentivize bad behavior?

How in the world is having sex bad behavior? Are you honestly telling me that every single time you have had sex you expected a pregnancy as a result? Why should a woman who becomes pregnant be deemed the bad one when there are zero consequences for the man in such cases? This illogical train of thought is very telling.

 

[insidejob]

How in the world does keeping abortion legal incentivize bad behavior?

How in the world is having sex bad behavior? Are you honestly telling me that every single time you have had sex you expected a pregnancy as a result? Why should a woman who becomes pregnant be deemed the bad one when there are zero consequences for the man in such cases? This illogical train of thought is very telling.

Well, obviously, it incentivizes bad behavior because people have such a good time having abortions. They have parties to celebrate before going to the clinic, then commemorate the abortion every year like you do a birthday.

Obvious sarcasm aside, it's ridiculous to even suggest that abortion is some kind of reward or incentive for bad behavior. It's oftentimes the most gut wrenching and difficult decision a woman makes and has to live with. Nobody has a good time going through the process of getting an abortion.