Ruth Bader Ginsburg has passed (Replaced by Amy Coney Barrett)(Now Abortion Discussion) (1 Viewer)

[GrandAdmiral]

Ugh... breaking news I DID NOT want to see.

ETA: Reported on CNN.

 

[Farb]

I call shenanigans. Brandon responded to you with an answer before I did. I saw no need to pile on since he already demonstrated that you were wrong. Now you're shifting the goalposts.

You said Plan B was abortion. Brandon pointed out that you are factually incorrect. Which do you believe, your opinion or the facts that render your opinion baseless?

This was a fun and productive and "checking notes"........good faith debate.
I think you don't have a stance, at least one you can articulate. Instead, you ask one line questions of any answer I give, hoping someone smarter will answer your part of the conversation for you and then you just to point to that answer. Enjoy.

 

[Farb]

This position makes no sense. States are no more allowed to translate the religious beliefs of the ruling party into laws and impose it on their citizens any more than the federal government is. Likewise, if it is the consensus view of the governed across this country that a fetus in the womb of a mother is deserving of legal protection, it makes no sense that abortion would be illegal in one state and not in another.

But it's always been a Republican/Southern strategy that whenever they want to deny their citizens civil liberty legal protections and can't convince the majority of the governed to go along with them, they always retreat to the position states rights. So it's not a surprising argument.

Being against abortion isn't a religious stance, it is a "I am against murder of the innocent" stance. That seems to be the disconnect.

 

[Farb]

So, let me get this straight. If my daughter or the lady on Twitter had died, that’s just what they get for having sex with their husbands? Do I have that right?

Have I ever said abortion should not be performed if the life of the mother was in jeopardy? Find where I have said that. If you do look, I think you will find I have always said the opposite. Don't let facts get in the way of emotional black mail though.

 

[Farb]

And Farb wonders why I think he doesn’t consider women as real people, or at least he doesn’t think they are equal to men in their personhood. He thinks they should all be held hostage to his extreme views.

Still waiting for you to explain my view of women. You said they were fair game and I agree, explain my feeling and beliefs toward women. Please. How do I view women?

 

[Farb]

I am not talking about at child birth. I am talking about from day 1 if you belive life starts at conception. I am talking about if a woman has a miscarriage at ANY point after conception. If Abortion is murder, why wouldn't you consider a miscarraige negligent homocide?
I would like an explination.

Logic
Do you actually think a miscarriage and a surgerical procedure designed to snipe a spinal cord and dismember a fetus is the same thing?

You really don't deserve an explanation for that

 

[Bigdaddysaints]

Logic
Do you actually think a miscarriage and a surgerical procedure designed to snipe a spinal cord and dismember a fetus is the same thing?

You really don't deserve an explanation for that

Thats irrelevant. If its life, it doesn't matter if its a surgical procedure or not, a death is death, what does that have to do with it?
Whether a doctor does it or the mother causes it, even inadvertantly, its still a death, possibly caused by someone's actions or lack there of. It does deserve an explination. is a miscarrage a death of a unborn child?

 

[Taurus]

Have I ever said abortion should not be performed if the life of the mother was in jeopardy? Find where I have said that. If you do look, I think you will find I have always said the opposite. Don't let facts get in the way of emotional black mail though.

Who decides and what qualifies?

Pregnancy in and of itself poses a risk to a woman's life. Does the doctor decide? Ok, what about confidentiality? Isn't it true that the only two people who get to know about medical issues are the patient and the doctor?

How about mental risks?

Conveying legal personhood to a lump of cells inside another legal person carries a host of complications the pro-life movement never considers.

 

[brandon]

This was a fun and productive and "checking notes"........good faith debate.
I think you don't have a stance, at least one you can articulate. Instead, you ask one line questions of any answer I give, hoping someone smarter will answer your part of the conversation for you and then you just to point to that answer. Enjoy.

This might carry some weight if you actually bothered to respond to the post I made clearly showing you to be factually incorrect.

Instead, it's just deflection.

 

[Farb]

Who decides and what qualifies?

Pregnancy in and of itself poses a risk to a woman's life. Does the doctor decide? Ok, what about confidentiality? Isn't it true that the only two people who get to know about medical issues are the patient and the doctor?

How about mental risks?

Conveying legal personhood to a lump of cells inside another legal person carries a host of complications the pro-life movement never considers.

'Personhood'. I have heard this lately, when does that happen?

Abortion is itself poses a risk. Getting teeth cleaned poses a risk too.

Mental risks? Murder should be allowed over feelings? No thanks.

 

[Farb]

Thats irrelevant. If its life, it doesn't matter if its a surgical procedure or not, a death is death, what does that have to do with it?
Whether a doctor does it or the mother causes it, even inadvertantly, its still a death, possibly caused by someone's actions or lack there of. It does deserve an explination. is a miscarrage a death of a unborn child?

Explain how the miscarriage happened. Flight of stairs, drugs, natural? That will go along way for you to work this out in your head.

Do you think a parent should be charged if they were involved in a car accident (they were also speeding) and their child who is buckled in dies in wreck, should be charged? You should by this line of thinking.

 

[coldseat]

Being against abortion isn't a religious stance, it is a "I am against murder of the innocent" stance. That seems to be the disconnect.

It's not a disconnect at all. The reason you believe that the fetus is "innocent" is because you believe it's a human being deserving of legal protections from the moment of its conception. The reason you believe it's a human being deserving of legal protection from it's conception is because of your religious beliefs. Ala, imposing your religious beliefs on others

Those who support abortion rights (most people in the US) do not agree that a fetus is a human being deserving of legal protection from the moment of conception. They believe that starts at some point after that (viability for most). And that before that point, there are fundamental rights of liberty and privacy for women that should prevent the government from injecting itself in the decision women make with their pregnancy.

 

[Taurus]

'Personhood'. I have heard this lately, when does that happen?

Abortion is itself poses a risk. Getting teeth cleaned poses a risk too.

Mental risks? Murder should be allowed over feelings? No thanks.

Personhood is the relevant state. Cancer cells are alive, dogs, cats and cows are alive, but they aren't people.
Abortion poses a much lower risk than pregnancy. In addition there's this thing called consent. Pro-lifers should look it up some time.
Mental health/depression is a factor cited in many abortions. It's deeper than just "feelings" even though it doesn't need to be.

 

[cuddlemonkey]

This was a fun and productive and "checking notes"........good faith debate.
I think you don't have a stance, at least one you can articulate. Instead, you ask one line questions of any answer I give, hoping someone smarter will answer your part of the conversation for you and then you just to point to that answer. Enjoy.

Do you really want to go here? Fine.

This is from a faith-based pregnancy center that describes itself as "a culture where lives are transformed by the Gospel of Jesus Christ and every woman chooses life for herself and her unborn child.":

"Plan B Emergency Contraception
Plan B emergency contraception does not cause an abortion to occur. Often known as the morning-after pill, Plan B must be taken within 72 hours of unprotected sex or failed contraception in order to be effective. It is available over the counter at most pharmacies. If you are already pregnant and take Plan B, it will not terminate or harm your pregnancy."

Abortion Pill vs. Plan B - Ray of Hope Pregnancy Care Ministries

What’s the Difference? The abortion pill and Plan B are often thought of as being the same, but there are very few similarities between the two. Understanding the differences will help you make the best decision for your body and your health. The Abortion Pill (RU-486) The abortion pill, also...

rayofhopepcm.com

Here's what Healthline says:

"Plan B isn’t the same thing as the abortion pill. It doesn’t cause abortion or miscarriage.

Plan B, also known as the morning-after pill, is a form of emergency contraception (EC) that contains levonorgestrel, a synthetic form of the hormone progestin.

Plan B can help prevent pregnancy if taken within 120 hours (5 days) after sex. It doesn’t work if you’re already pregnant.

Read on to learn more about the important differences between Plan B and the abortion pill."

How Is Plan B Different from the Abortion Pill?

The short answer? Plan B doesn’t cause abortion or miscarriage. It can, however, help prevent pregnancy if taken within 120 hours after sex.

www.healthline.com

How about the Mayo Clinic?

"Morning-after pills can help prevent pregnancy if you've had unprotected sex — either because you didn't use birth control, you missed a birth control pill, you were sexually assaulted or your method of birth control failed.

Morning-after pills do not end a pregnancy that has implanted. They work primarily by delaying or preventing ovulation.

Keep in mind that the morning-after pill isn't the same as mifepristone (Mifeprex), also known as RU-486 or the abortion pill. This drug terminates an established pregnancy — one in which the fertilized egg has attached to the uterine wall and has begun to develop."

Morning-after pill - Mayo Clinic

www.mayoclinic.org

There you go, straight from me and not from someone else. Do you still hold to your opinion, now that you know it's not rooted in reality?

 

[V Chip]

Logic
Do you actually think a miscarriage and a surgerical procedure designed to snipe a spinal cord and dismember a fetus is the same thing?

Definitely NOT logic.

The vast majority of abortions are nothing of the sort you described. In fact, the vast majority of abortion procedures are the exact same procedure used to remove a miscarried fetus or blood clots or other uterine tissue and are incredibly safe. The number of abortions that would require your described procedure is miniscule.

 

[V Chip]

Explain how the miscarriage happened. Flight of stairs, drugs, natural? That will go along way for you to work this out in your head.

Do you think a parent should be charged if they were involved in a car accident (they were also speeding) and their child who is buckled in dies in wreck, should be charged? You should by this line of thinking.

In Texas, it doesn't matter. The law allows anyone to sue for pregnancy loss, no matter the reason. The person who had the miscarriage can't be sued (if i read the summaries correctly) but their healthcare providers, spouses/family members, friends, ride share drivers, etc can be. Women have been charged with manslaughter or murder for miscarriages, even in states where abortion is legal (illogically, they would have not been charged if they had the abortion instead of having a miscarriage).

 

[Farb]

It's not a disconnect at all. The reason you believe that the fetus is "innocent" is because you believe it's a human being deserving of legal protections from the moment of its conception. The reason you believe it's a human being deserving of legal protection from it's conception is because of your religious beliefs. Ala, imposing your religious beliefs on others

Those who support abortion rights (most people in the US) do not agree that a fetus is a human being deserving of legal protection from the moment of conception. They believe that starts at some point after that (viability for most). And that before that point, there are fundamental rights of liberty and privacy for women that should prevent the government from injecting itself in the decision women make with their pregnancy.

Are you saying the only people who believe a human life begin at conception are religious people and those beliefs are only founded in religion?

When, in your opinion is a human life viable?

 

[Farb]

Definitely NOT logic.

The vast majority of abortions are nothing of the sort you described. In fact, the vast majority of abortion procedures are the exact same procedure used to remove a miscarried fetus or blood clots or other uterine tissue and are incredibly safe. The number of abortions that would require your described procedure is miniscule.

Then you would have no reason to oppose a cut off limit for an abortion? Say when the procedure itself has to do with spinal cords and limbs?

 

[Farb]

Do you really want to go here? Fine.

This is from a faith-based pregnancy center that describes itself as "a culture where lives are transformed by the Gospel of Jesus Christ and every woman chooses life for herself and her unborn child.":

"Plan B Emergency Contraception
Plan B emergency contraception does not cause an abortion to occur. Often known as the morning-after pill, Plan B must be taken within 72 hours of unprotected sex or failed contraception in order to be effective. It is available over the counter at most pharmacies. If you are already pregnant and take Plan B, it will not terminate or harm your pregnancy."

Abortion Pill vs. Plan B - Ray of Hope Pregnancy Care Ministries

What’s the Difference? The abortion pill and Plan B are often thought of as being the same, but there are very few similarities between the two. Understanding the differences will help you make the best decision for your body and your health. The Abortion Pill (RU-486) The abortion pill, also...

rayofhopepcm.com

Here's what Healthline says:

"Plan B isn’t the same thing as the abortion pill. It doesn’t cause abortion or miscarriage.

Plan B, also known as the morning-after pill, is a form of emergency contraception (EC) that contains levonorgestrel, a synthetic form of the hormone progestin.

Plan B can help prevent pregnancy if taken within 120 hours (5 days) after sex. It doesn’t work if you’re already pregnant.

Read on to learn more about the important differences between Plan B and the abortion pill."

How Is Plan B Different from the Abortion Pill?

The short answer? Plan B doesn’t cause abortion or miscarriage. It can, however, help prevent pregnancy if taken within 120 hours after sex.

www.healthline.com

How about the Mayo Clinic?

"Morning-after pills can help prevent pregnancy if you've had unprotected sex — either because you didn't use birth control, you missed a birth control pill, you were sexually assaulted or your method of birth control failed.

Morning-after pills do not end a pregnancy that has implanted. They work primarily by delaying or preventing ovulation.

Keep in mind that the morning-after pill isn't the same as mifepristone (Mifeprex), also known as RU-486 or the abortion pill. This drug terminates an established pregnancy — one in which the fertilized egg has attached to the uterine wall and has begun to develop."

Morning-after pill - Mayo Clinic

www.mayoclinic.org

There you go, straight from me and not from someone else. Do you still hold to your opinion, now that you know it's not rooted in reality?

When do you think, if at all, should abortion be made illegal or when, in your opinion do you think the baby becomes a human life?