Miscellaneous Trump (2 Viewers)

[Huntn]

Anxiety surges as Donald Trump may be indicted soon: Why 2024 is 'the final battle' and 'the big one'​

Anxiety surges as Donald Trump may be indicted soon: Why 2024 is 'the final battle' and 'the big one'

Donald Trump's many legal problems – and calls for protests – have generated new fears of political violence and anxiety about the 2024 election.

www.yahoo.com

WASHINGTON – It looks like American politics is entering a new age of anxiety, triggered by an unprecedented legal development: The potential indictment of a former president and current presidential candidate.

Donald Trump's many legal problems – and calls for protests by his followers – have generated new fears of political violence and anxiety about the unknowable impact all this will have on the already-tense 2024 presidential election

I’ll reframe this is a more accurate way, Are Presidents above the law? This new age was spurred into existence when home grown dummies elected a corrupt, mentally ill, anti-democratic, would be dictator as President and don’t bother to hold him responsible for his crimes, don’t want to because in the ensuing mayhem and destruction, they think they will be better off. The man is actually advocating violence (not the first time). And btw, screw democracy too. If this feeling spreads, we are In deep shirt.

This goes beyond one treasonous Peice of work and out to all his minions. This is on you or should we be sympathetic to the idea of they can’t help being selfish suckers to the Nation’s detriment? Donald Trump is the single largest individual threat to our democracy and it‘s all going to boil down to will the majority of the GOP return to his embrace and start slinging his excrement to support him?

 

[TampaJoe]

And it depends on if TJ allows the quote. Only quotes that TJ wants. If he doesn't like it then the quote is too old and not applicable. This is right on brand with your inability to articulate your positions, you may as well just say "because I said so" since you don't have anything better to add.

I got no problem with the quote. But since you bring up articulating positions, I find it odd that the person who posted the quote conveniently neglected to state who he was quoting and when the quote originated. Thats important contextually. To neglect such facts is misleading. Ms Bird would have marked him down if he had done that on a paper.

As to the quote itself, the man who made that quote made it 60 years ago. He died 25 years ago. The threat to our country isn’t some right wing theocracy. Wasn’t then. Isn’t now. I’ve been hearing about this for decades. Same rhetoric. The threat we face today sits in China, Tehran, and Moscow. It’s not some evangelical takeover of the US.

But don’t let that get in the way of a good hand wringing or pearl clutching.

 

[RobF]

But since you bring up articulating positions, I find it odd that the person who posted the quote conveniently neglected to state who he was quoting and when the quote originated. Thats important contextually. To neglect such facts is misleading.

Joe, this is a politics forum. The premise that you keep pushing, that @J-DONK might have been hoping to cite Goldwater's famous quote and the Southern Strategy, in a politics forum, without anyone knowing the who, what, and when, is asinine.

 

[CoolBrees]

That is like not knowing who was quoted warning about the Military Industrial Complex.

 

[TampaJoe]

Joe, this is a politics forum. The premise that you keep pushing, that @J-DONK might have been hoping to cite Goldwater's famous quote and the Southern Strategy, in a politics forum, without anyone knowing the who, what, and when, is asinine.

Asinine. Yeah right.

 

[SFIDC3]

What are founding fathers put in place is relevant.
One nation, under God is still relevant.
and........
Lincoln's Gettysburg address should still be studied in our H.S classrooms.

How bad is your history knowledge if you think the Founding Fathers added "One nation under God"

Unless you think Eisenhower is a Founding Father

easy man, he has so many band students to worry about, and shouldn't only TJ be quoting him now? Careful, because you may be violating the TOS, oops, I maybe also.....

 

[cuddlemonkey]

To a larger degree? No. Does the religious vote have some influence. Yep. Does it control? No.

We do not have a theocracy. Not even close.

I never said anything about a theocracy. Please stop mischaracterizing everything in such a dishonest manner.

As for what Goldwater said, you seem to be unable to recognize reality around you.

Goldwater: "Mark my word, if and when these preachers get control of the [Republican] party, and they're sure trying to do so, it's going to be a terrible damn problem."

Reality? Yes: "Long seen as a fringe viewpoint, Christian nationalism now has a foothold in American politics, particularly in the Republican Party — according to a new survey from the Public Religion Research Institute and the Brookings Institution.

Researchers found that more than half of Republicans believe the country should be a strictly Christian nation, either adhering to the ideals of Christian nationalism (21%) or sympathizing with those views (33%)."

"Kristin Kobes Du Mez, a history professor at Calvin University, said it's important to note that this is not a novel ideology in American families.

"These ideas have been widely held throughout American history and particularly since the 1970s with the rise of the Christian Right," she said.

Du Mez said these views are mostly a reaction to changing demographics, as well as cultural and generational shifts in the U.S. As the country has become less white and Christian, she said these adherents want to hold on to their cultural and political power.

In fact, according to the survey, half of Christian nationalism adherents and nearly 4 in 10 sympathizers said they support the idea of an authoritarian leader in order to keep these Christian values in society."

Goldwater: "Frankly, these people frighten me. Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can't and won't compromise. I know, I've tried to deal with them."

Reality? Yes: "The reality is that a lot of these folks — especially the adherents — are very militant in this belief that God has given them a mandate to rule over the nation," he said. "And so for them, I think that compromise is a sign of weakness and the GOP needs to understand what they are dealing with."

According to the survey, adherents of Christian nationalism say they will go to great lengths to impose their vision of the country. Jones with PRRI said they found adherents are far more likely to agree with the statement: "true patriots might have to resort to violence to save our country."

Now, do you have anything to support your opinion that the GOP is not largely influenced by the religious right?

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

The general consensus I believe was "We all agree that we are focused on our creator God...but some are Baptists, some are Presbyterians, some are Quakers..etc., etc. etc."
We don't want to have a Government approved church....to each his or her own.

No, there were Deists among the founding Fathers (the watchmaker God who just winds it all up and just lets it go), and atheists as well. While the vast majority of them were Christians, and had values heavily influenced by it, they did not want that their personal definitions to be the law of the land. They were just as influenced by the Enlightenment and John Locke as they were Thomas Aquinas (actually for governing theory, they were more influenced by the 18th Century philosophers than Christian theologians).

James Madison, one of the main authors of the Constitution summed it up thus:

The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries.​

 

[cuddlemonkey]

I got no problem with the quote. But since you bring up articulating positions, I find it odd that the person who posted the quote conveniently neglected to state who he was quoting and when the quote originated. Thats important contextually. To neglect such facts is misleading. Ms Bird would have marked him down if he had done that on a paper.

As to the quote itself, the man who made that quote made it 60 years ago. He died 25 years ago. The threat to our country isn’t some right wing theocracy. Wasn’t then. Isn’t now. I’ve been hearing about this for decades. Same rhetoric. The threat we face today sits in China, Tehran, and Moscow. It’s not some evangelical takeover of the US.

But don’t let that get in the way of a good hand wringing or pearl clutching.

Lincoln died in 1865, yet you want the Gettysburg Address studied by schoolchildren all over the country.

Goldwater's quote was a warning that came true.

 

[t_rav_82]

No, there were Deists among the founding Fathers (the watchmaker God who just winds it all up and just lets it go), and atheists as well. While the vast majority of them were Christians, and had values heavily influenced by it, they did not want that their personal definitions to be the law of the land. They were just as influenced by the Enlightenment and John Locke as they were Thomas Aquinas (actually for governing theory, they were more influenced by the 18th Century philosophers than Christian theologians).

James Madison, one of the main authors of the Constitution summed it up thus:

Yeah but that quote is more than 50 years old so it doesn't count. I know it's hard to keep up with @TampaJoe 's lack of logic and arbitrary rules but come on Jim, it's like you're not even trying.

 

[SteveSBrickNJ]

How do you square this acknowledgment with your thirst to force everyone to abide by your own religious interpretations?

My "thirst" is exaggerated by you.
The actual important thing is that the founding fathers DID want to keep the government OUT of the church.
Yet..
They did NOT want to keep Christians out of the government.

 

[coldseat]

They did NOT want to keep Christians out of the government.

Nobody has made that argument. But they DID want to keep Christian doctrine OUT of government and keep it from masquerading as government policy.

 

[TampaJoe]

Yeah but that quote is more than 50 years old so it doesn't count. I know it's hard to keep up with @TampaJoe 's lack of logic and arbitrary rules but come on Jim, it's like you're not even trying.

Aw Rav. You give me too much credit. I don’t have the power to set rules. I’m no threat. Don’t freak out.

 

[TampaJoe]

Lincoln died in 1865, yet you want the Gettysburg Address studied by schoolchildren all over the country.

Goldwater's quote was a warning that came true.

According to you.

I never said anything about a theocracy. Please stop mischaracterizing everything in such a dishonest manner.

As for what Goldwater said, you seem to be unable to recognize reality around you.

Goldwater: "Mark my word, if and when these preachers get control of the [Republican] party, and they're sure trying to do so, it's going to be a terrible damn problem."

Reality? Yes: "Long seen as a fringe viewpoint, Christian nationalism now has a foothold in American politics, particularly in the Republican Party — according to a new survey from the Public Religion Research Institute and the Brookings Institution.

Researchers found that more than half of Republicans believe the country should be a strictly Christian nation, either adhering to the ideals of Christian nationalism (21%) or sympathizing with those views (33%)."

"Kristin Kobes Du Mez, a history professor at Calvin University, said it's important to note that this is not a novel ideology in American families.

"These ideas have been widely held throughout American history and particularly since the 1970s with the rise of the Christian Right," she said.

Du Mez said these views are mostly a reaction to changing demographics, as well as cultural and generational shifts in the U.S. As the country has become less white and Christian, she said these adherents want to hold on to their cultural and political power.

In fact, according to the survey, half of Christian nationalism adherents and nearly 4 in 10 sympathizers said they support the idea of an authoritarian leader in order to keep these Christian values in society."

Goldwater: "Frankly, these people frighten me. Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can't and won't compromise. I know, I've tried to deal with them."

Reality? Yes: "The reality is that a lot of these folks — especially the adherents — are very militant in this belief that God has given them a mandate to rule over the nation," he said. "And so for them, I think that compromise is a sign of weakness and the GOP needs to understand what they are dealing with."

According to the survey, adherents of Christian nationalism say they will go to great lengths to impose their vision of the country. Jones with PRRI said they found adherents are far more likely to agree with the statement: "true patriots might have to resort to violence to save our country."

Now, do you have anything to support your opinion that the GOP is not largely influenced by the religious right?

What exactly then is your fear? Do you have a problem that religious people have opinions on public policy like other citizens? Do you have an issue if they vote like other citizens?

They haven’t taken over the GOP nor do they control public policy in this country. Do they try to influence public policy? Yes. But so do other influence groups like the NAACP or the Rainbow Coalition or NARAL or AARP. Any of those folks you fear?

If you don’t like public policy put forward by these various groups. I get it. I don’t agree with some of it myself but that goes with the territory of living in a democracy. Folks have been complaining about special interest groups for decades. That isn’t going to change unless you want to limit somebody’s speech rights. You are more than welcome to offer an alternate view. That’s how it works.

Am I worried about the moral majority taking over? No. I am more worried about being in the basement in education when compared to other industrialized nations. Ranking near the bottom in math and science. I’m worried about our ability to compete in the future.

So you can carry on worrying about Barry Goldwater and Jerry Falwell and Anita Bryant. I don’t see the threat but then again I’m not as plugged into radical right wing politics are you. So carry on.

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

My "thirst" is exaggerated by you.
The actual important thing is that the founding fathers DID want to keep the government OUT of the church.
Yet..
They did NOT want to keep Christians out of the government.

Who is trying to keep Christians out of government, every single person to run for president has been a Christian.

The whole point of the way the Founders set up the government is to keep the government from making declarations of faith. This government is supposed to be for all faiths (or no faith), and once the government starts making declarations or affirmations, it then biases the government.

It was an actual debate. Some founders did want more declarations of faith and God in their documents, but ultimately, they deliberately left God out.

 

[cuddlemonkey]

According to you.

What exactly then is your fear? Do you have a problem that religious people have opinions on public policy like other citizens? Do you have an issue if they vote like other citizens?

They haven’t taken over the GOP nor do they control public policy in this country. Do they try to influence public policy? Yes. But so do other influence groups like the NAACP or the Rainbow Coalition or NARAL or AARP. Any of those folks you fear?

If you don’t like public policy put forward by these various groups. I get it. I don’t agree with some of it myself but that goes with the territory of living in a democracy. Folks have been complaining about special interest groups for decades. That isn’t going to change unless you want to limit somebody’s speech rights. You are more than welcome to offer an alternate view. That’s how it works.

Am I worried about the moral majority taking over? No. I am more worried about being in the basement in education when compared to other industrialized nations. Ranking near the bottom in math and science. I’m worried about our ability to compete in the future.

So you can carry on worrying about Barry Goldwater and Jerry Falwell and Anita Bryant. I don’t see the threat but then again I’m not as plugged into radical right wing politics are you. So carry on.

Your ability to so completely ignore reality is terrifyingly impressive. Christian Nationalism is alive and well not just among GOP voters, but GOP politicians as well. A dozen evangelical preachers praying over Trump, a sitting congresswoman publicly proclaiming to be a Christian Nationalist, and GOP politicians at all levels of government- both federal and state- advancing theological agendas are all well-documented occurrences.

And if you want to figure out why our public education is so bad, read above. The GOP is trying to eliminate the Department of Education, red states are trying to funnel public funds to private (religious) schools, Texas trying to push creationism as a viable alternative to evolution and obfuscating the causes of climate change, Oklahoma trying to mandate teaching the Bible in public schools, etc. The list is endless and the evidence is there for all to see. One just needs to take their head out of their arse.

 

[TampaJoe]

Your ability to so completely ignore reality is terrifyingly impressive. Christian Nationalism is alive and well not just among GOP voters, but GOP politicians as well. A dozen evangelical preachers praying over Trump, a sitting congresswoman publicly proclaiming to be a Christian Nationalist, and GOP politicians at all levels of government- both federal and state- advancing theological agendas are all well-documented occurrences.

And if you want to figure out why our public education is so bad, read above. The GOP is trying to eliminate the Department of Education, red states are trying to funnel public funds to private (religious) schools, Texas trying to push creationism as a viable alternative to evolution and obfuscating the causes of climate change, Oklahoma trying to mandate teaching the Bible in public schools, etc. The list is endless and the evidence is there for all to see. One just needs to take their head out of their arse.

Give me a break. Education has been a problem for decades and across administrations and across congresses. So you can’t lay that at the feet of a single party or a single administration.

YOUR ability to ignore reality is terrifyingly impressive. And sad.

 

[bird]

They did NOT want to keep Christians out of the government.

Keep Christians out? No. Keep Christianity out? Yes.

The RW Christians claim to want religion and God back in the public square. First of all, he never left. Second, they don’t really want religion because they know that would lead directly to discussions of dogma and who is a “real” Christian and who isn’t much like their disgusting “real American” bullschlitz.

So, there are two points to look at. The first is that politicians especially from the Right bleat that they are a “person of faith”. Not possible for me to care less about that. The constitution agrees with me. In point of opinion, it makes me want to take a shower after hearing a politician say that. To borrow from Parke Godwin’s The Snake Oil Wars: some people can’t kneel to the cross without their foot on someone’s neck.

The second is that the founders knew what mayhem was caused by religion in Europe. Jefferson also said that it didn’t matter whether his neighbor said there was one God or twenty Gods. It neither picked his pocket nor broke his leg. He also said regarding religion and politicians by way of example that a ferry pilot could be an atheist and do just as good a job as one who was devout.

Read Kramnick and Moore’s The Godless Constitution.

 

[SteveSBrickNJ]

Nobody has made that argument. But they DID want to keep Christian doctrine OUT of government and keep it from masquerading as government policy.

I'm not so sure you can say a sweeping "they" wanted to keep Christian doctrine OUT of government.
There are Biblical principals that were likely tweaked as the Constitution was established?
Just like today, the devotion to one's faith surely varied from person to person.