Language (1 Viewer)

[Farb]

In another thread, it was brought to my attention that we am not allowed to use certain centuries old definitions because they have been 'updated'. That discussion was about the definition of 'racism'. I asked who controls the 'words' and who exactly gets to update the meaning of those commonly used words.

I saw this yesterday and thought this would be a discussion to attempt to have.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...e-terms-like-birthing-parents-human-milk.html

https://news.yahoo.com/democrats-replace-women-birthing-people-033500864.html

IMO this is a move to be 'inclusive' to trans people at the sake of women (we are discussing birthing humans after all).

The recent call to change the word for a person who comes into a country illegally from Alien to undocumented. Why? What possible purpose does it serve?

Even 'white supremacy' doesn't mean 'white supremacy'.

I am sure we are all somewhat familiar with Orwell and 1984. So i thought this would be a good place to post and discuss the language that we are seeing right in front of us. If we can't even share a language with common definitions, how do we expect to share a government?

 

[CoolBrees]

@Farb -

I think you weaken your argument significantly when you equate Marxism and socialism.

I am trying to understand, so I went ahead and gave my definition of each. I would argue that they are not controversial opinions.

Socialism is a system where private business and property ownership are part of the economic construct. The benefits from success however, are shared more equally across those involved in the system as a whole. The ethos being, the individual or business benefits from the system and therefore the system should share in the profits. Key word being “profits.”

Marxism is a system where means of production and land ownership are a matter for the State exclusively. The ethos being the individual is dependent on the collective, and the collective provides all that is needed. This system provides no profits nor loss, only means.

What either of those have to do with changing or evolving language I have no clue; but there you go. If you are thinking of thought control or censorship, well those aren’t economic philosophies so they don’t fit with either construct, hence my confusion. Those are ideals that are governmental in nature, not economic. Furthermore, this also has a name - authoritarianism.

So if you would be so kind as to make the correlation that I am missing. The one you have been dancing around for like 5 pages.

 

[V Chip]

1. The radical left is not built on Marxist/socialist ideology?
2. The radial left has not taken over the democratic party?

I’ll let #1 slide. It certainly can be.

#2 though? Good lord no. The modern Democratic Party in the US is barely left of center, if at all left of center. The idea that the Democratic Party is radically left is a fiction invented by the extreme right.

 

[Paul]

@Farb -

Socialism is a system where private business and property ownership are part of the economic construct. The benefits from success however, are shared more equally across those involved in the system as a whole. The ethos being, the individual or business benefits from the system and therefore the system should share in the profits. Key word being “profits.”

Marxism is a system where means of production and land ownership are a matter for the State exclusively. The ethos being the individual is dependent on the collective, and the collective provides all that is needed. This system provides no profits nor loss, only means.

That definition of socialism rests squarely on the shoulders of capitalism. I am reminded of the Nordic nations. Many see them as socialists, however in reality they are capitalists nations with nice generous benefits and social programs (the Nordic model). The cash and wealth for the less fortunate is generate by capitalism. I rather use the term mixed economy or a welfare state.

Interestingly Sweden attempted to go farther left in the early 1970s with regards to social programs. Some believe they wanted to be true socialists. They were committed to centralized planning of the economy, however, it fizzled out. Todays Sweden remains capitalistic and they have gone as far right as to privatize part of their social security system. They also use school vouchers and allow the vouchers to be used in religious schools. In that regard they are more right wing that America.

 

[samiam5211]

That definition of socialism rests squarely on the shoulders of capitalism. I am reminded of the Nordic nations. Many see them as socialists, however in reality they are capitalists nations with nice generous benefits and social programs (the Nordic model). The cash and wealth for the less fortunate is generate by capitalism. I rather use the term mixed economy or a welfare state.

Interestingly Sweden attempted to go farther left in the early 1970s with regards to social programs. Some believe they wanted to be true socialists. They were committed to centralized planning of the economy, however, it fizzled out. Todays Sweden remains capitalistic and they have gone as far right as to privatize part of their social security system. They also use school vouchers and allow the vouchers to be used in religious schools. In that regard they are more right wing that America.

I think Market Socialism is close to what you are talking about here.

Market socialism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[bdb13]

I’ll let #1 slide. It certainly can be.

#2 though? Good lord no. The modern Democratic Party in the US is barely left of center, if at all left of center. The idea that the Democratic Party is radically left is a fiction invented by the extreme right.

The ones that are the further left members are typically and naturally more boisterous than moderates... and then they are amplified by Fox, AM radio, and the like.

I'll say in my view there has definitely been more mainstream attention than should be given to (imo) out-and-out stupid shirt pushed from the far left like removing the filibuster... but it's pretty clear that there aren't enough Democrats that would go along with it.

 

[V Chip]

out-and-out stupid shirt pushed from the far left like removing the filibuster... but it's pretty clear that there aren't enough Democrats that would go along with it.

The funny thing to me is that you consider people talking about that “far left.”

The filibuster was removed from Supreme Court nominations by the… let’s check my notes again… hmm, seems like it was the far right.

And if you wanna see far left, check out the far left parties in Europe. Our farthest left Congresspeople are conservative by comparison.

 

[JRad]

I took at as comparatively far left.

they are amplified by Fox, AM radio, and the like.

But yea, this is a big one. People like AOC's "notoriety" comes from Fox more than anywhere else, imo. I think the furthest left politicians we have are a bigger piece of the overall pie for Democrats than they are the furthest right are to Republicans, but it's still under 50%. I have nothing to back that up, just how things look to me.

 

[bdb13]

The funny thing to me is that you consider people talking about that “far left.”

The filibuster was removed from Supreme Court nominations by the… let’s check my notes again… hmm, seems like it was the far right.

And if you wanna see far left, check out the far left parties in Europe. Our farthest left Congresspeople are conservative by comparison.

I meant "far left" based upon how we view things over here or our American political spectrum or whatever.

 

[Farb]

https://www.fox2detroit.com/news/as...them&utm_medium=trueanthem&utm_source=twitter

Song Qian, a University of Toledo environmental sciences professor who teamed with Kocovsky on the article, said carp is a valued protein source in many Asian nations. It's a good-luck symbol in his native China.

"If you say it's invasive, bad and needs to be eradicated, even though it's because of miscommunication, that's why there's talk about cultural insensitivity," Qian said.

Problem solved.

 

[samiam5211]

https://www.fox2detroit.com/news/as...them&utm_medium=trueanthem&utm_source=twitter

Song Qian, a University of Toledo environmental sciences professor who teamed with Kocovsky on the article, said carp is a valued protein source in many Asian nations. It's a good-luck symbol in his native China.

"If you say it's invasive, bad and needs to be eradicated, even though it's because of miscommunication, that's why there's talk about cultural insensitivity," Qian said.

Problem solved.

You seem to care about language as much as the people pushing to have words changed. Maybe you all need to join the same support group for people who are triggered by language.

 

[Farb]

You seem to care about language as much as the people pushing to have words changed. Maybe you all need to join the same support group for people who are triggered by language.

I do get triggered by several things and this is one of them. I find this topic important. I am sorry it bothers you to discuss it, but you don't have to, that is up to you.

Good idea about the group, that is why I started this thread so welcome to my support group.

 

[Farb]

https://nypost.com/2021/07/12/families-sue-universal-orlando-after-mascot-uses-white-power-gesture/

"When she posed for a photo with the actor, he placed a hand on her shoulder while making an upside-down “OK” symbol, which the Anti-Defamation League added to its list of hate symbols

“He put his hand on her as if he was just doing it regularly, and as I was looking at the camera, he started to put the universal white supremacist hate sign on her shoulder,” her mother, Tiffiney Zinger, previously told USA Today.

“We just wanted to take them to see the Minions, do something special for our family, and this person ruined that special warm feeling,” she said."

Several things on this. When did this become a 'universal white supremacist' sign and when doe the ADL get to decide what stupid hand signal games are racist or not?

 

[Bigdaddysaints]

When did this become a 'universal white supremacist' sign

When White Supremacists started using it. I Don't agree with it, but thats the answer.

 

[samiam5211]

When White Supremacists started using it. I Don't agree with it, but thats the answer.

yea, at this point even people just using it to troll the libs, are doing it because of the perception that it is a "white power" sign.

It doesn't matter if the person doing it is a white supremacist, if they are doing it because they know some my interpret it as a white supremacist symbol, the impact is the same.

Adults should stop trolling people and supporting or excusing those who do.

 

[SystemShock]

I’ll let #1 slide. It certainly can be.

#2 though? Good lord no. The modern Democratic Party in the US is barely left of center, if at all left of center. The idea that the Democratic Party is radically left is a fiction invented by the extreme right.

To be fair, when you are far right, everything towards the other side is far left.

 

[Paul]

To be fair, when you are far right, everything towards the other side is far left.

And for a leftist Ché Guevara is a NAZI. It is all about perspective.

I always suspected this woman was a NAZI.

 

[DaveXA]

And for a leftist Ché Guevara is a NAZI. It is all about perspective.

I always suspected this woman was a NAZI.

I'm no fan of AOC, but she's no Nazi. Socialist, sure, but not a Nazi. Socialism and Fascism are hardly the same thing.

 

[SystemShock]

And for a leftist Ché Guevara is a NAZI. It is all about perspective.

I always suspected this woman was a NAZI.

Oh, boy. Why do you do this to yourself?

For starters, why don't you go learn a bit about Guevara, then come back in shame to remove your post?