Israel vs Hamas (2 Viewers)

[GrandAdmiral]

Looks like the fight is on with Israeli soldiers and civilians amongst the dead already. Question becomes, how long before we get dragged into this?

Netanyahu says Israel is ‘at war’ after Hamas launches surprise attack, takes hostages | CNN

Israel’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu declared that the country was “at war” on Saturday, after Palestinian militants in Gaza fired a deadly barrage of rockets and sent gunmen into Israeli territory in a major escalation of the long running conflict between the two sides.

www.cnn.com

 

[UriUT]

That’s where the disagreement lies, then. I’m not making that accusation, I’m expressing concern that outside agitators are taking advantage of the protests, after they’ve started, to stir violence and chaos.

However, I did mention a lawsuit in a previous post that involves plaintiffs accusing Hamas of operating/influencing campus groups. Again, I can offer no opinion of the credibility of those claims, but recognize it as a development in an ongoing matter.

Hamas attack survivors sue student protesters

A lawsuit alleges that two groups are "aiding and abetting" Hamas amid nationwide campus protests against Israel's offensive in Gaza.

www.newsweek.com

Why are you taking that as gospel? We discussed bias before.

My problem with your concern is that you are counting the eggs before they hatch. Itbassumes the inevitability of violence, and that is discrediting the protestors.

 

[Incumbent]

Why are you taking that as gospel? We discussed bias before.

My problem with your concern is that you are counting the eggs before they hatch. Itbassumes the inevitability of violence, and that is discrediting the protestors.

What am I taking as gospel?

I don’t know how to make this more clear; there are reports that an overwhelming majority of protesters being arrested aren’t affiliated with the universities where they are protesting. This raises my concern about who they are and what their motives might be.

The appearance is that student and faculty protestors are largely remaining peaceful and compliant while outsiders are not.

 

[LA - L.A.]

I find this post to be a bit condescending.

I understand, because I find a lot of your posts on this subject condescending. I tell myself not to take it personally. I hope you reciprocate.

We are seeing the arrests, we are starting to know who some of the people are who are being arrested in some of the protests.

Where have you seen reports of the affiliations and/or motives of the people who have been arrested? I haven't see any reports on that. If you have, please post the links.

It’s not propaganda that some Hamas supporters have infiltrated some of the protests.

Sources please. All I've seen are accusations and allegations. I haven't seen any credible confirmation of this.

It’s not propaganda to note that we don’t know who the people were who attacked the protest at UCLA.

I didn't say it was.

When it happened to BLM protests I called it out as well. I’m not sure where you get the idea that I am falling for some sort of propaganda.

I never specifically said you were. You seem to have a very clear pro-Isreali/anti-Hamas bias.

When you name possible bad faith actors at the protests, you never list the posibility of Israeli bad faith actors at the protest, which histiorically is very likely and a very real possibility.

You don't seem neutral on this subject and that's okay.

 

[UriUT]

What am I taking as gospel?

I don’t know how to make this more clear; there are reports that an overwhelming majority of protesters being arrested aren’t affiliated with the universities where they are protesting. This raises my concern about who they are and what their motives might be.

The appearance is that student and faculty protestors are largely remaining peaceful and compliant while outsiders are not.

Don't you think that survivors suing is biased?

Again, were arrested folks violent? The first article I read of the ut protest was after abbott ordered state troopers immediately to make arrests, troopers approached and asked who wants to be arrested first. A few raised their hands and were arrested.

Yall are overly concerned with what can happen instead of what is actually happening in Gaza. And missing the whole point of the protest. Forget the platitudes. The conversation is...agitators and violence.

 

[LA - L.A.]

You would be wrong about this.

I haven't seen you say it. I've seen you say every other group, but I've never seen you say it could also be Israeli's. Maybe I missed it.

 

[DaveXA]

Don't you think that survivors suing is biased?

Again, were arrested folks violent? The first article I read of the ut protest was after abbott ordered state troopers immediately to make arrests, troopers approached and asked who wants to be arrested first. A few raised their hands and were arrested.

Yall are overly concerned with what can happen instead of what is actually happening in Gaza. And missing the whole point of the protest. Forget the platitudes. The conversation is...agitators and violence.

That's part of the conversation. And it's the natural progression of a discussion or debate. Again, I'll say that the agitation going on doesn't deligitimize the origins of the protests. The issues being raised about the suffering in Gaza are valid. The concerns of people usurping that message are also valid.

 

[Incumbent]

Don't you think that survivors suing is biased?

Again, were arrested folks violent? The first article I read of the ut protest was after abbott ordered state troopers immediately to make arrests, troopers approached and asked who wants to be arrested first. A few raised their hands and were arrested.

Yall are overly concerned with what can happen instead of what is actually happening in Gaza. And missing the whole point of the protest. Forget the platitudes. The conversation is...agitators and violence.

Speaking about one thing doesn’t mean I don’t care about other things.

I think every decent person hates the bloodshed in Gaza. Using your logic, is it your opinion that pro-Palestinian protesters don’t care about the people of Ukraine, Darfur, the Uyghurs?

 

[LA - L.A.]

I'll just say that I think the protests in both the BLM movement and in the case of students protesting the slaughter of Palestinians in Gaza both started out as legitimate, organic and authentic. I think in the current situation, they still are. Just because agitators and dubious actors are trying to take advantage of the situation doesn't deligitimize the origin of the protests.

That's exactly how I see it. There are two truths, most of the protesters are sincere and peaceful, and there are a bunch of jackholes crawling out from a bunch of different holes to discredit and/or exploit the protests for a variety of self-serving interests.

It's not one or the other. It's both.

 

[UriUT]

Speaking about one thing doesn’t mean I don’t care about other things.

I think every decent person hates the bloodshed in Gaza. Using your logic, is it your opinion that pro-Palestinian protesters don’t care about the people of Ukraine, Darfur, the Uyghurs.

That isn't my point is it? Similarly to the blm, one can talk about the arson or looting. But that isn't the point of that protest is it?

 

[Incumbent]

That isn't my point is it? Similarly to the blm, one can talk about the arson or looting. But that isn't the point of that protest is it?

Hard to say for sure what your point is.

There isn’t, that I can tell, any disagreement about *why* the protests are happening. To that extent, what would there be to talk about?

 

[LA - L.A.]

That isn't my point is it? Similarly to the blm, one can talk about the arson or looting. But that isn't the point of that protest is it?

Pardon me while I stick my nose into the conversation.

It's absolutely true that reports and statements from public figures focusing on the agitators that have infiltrated the groups give those infiltrators exactly what they want, which is to take the reporting focus off of what's being protested.

It's also true that a lot of those doing that reporting and making those statements are all too happy to take the focus of what's being protested.

At the same time, I don't think any of us who are talking about the agitators are trying to shift the focus away from what is being protested and I don't think any of us have lost sight of the importance of what's being protested.

 

[UriUT]

Hard to say for sure what your point is.

There isn’t, that I can tell, any disagreement about *why* the protests are happening. To that extent, what would there be to talk about?

My point is, and I thought I made it clear, is that bringing in agitators, violence, antisemitism, etc is a tool to discredit why the protestors are out there. That it's not organic, and I get that you are saying that you are not making that point. But at the same time, it appears that yall question the authenticity of the protests by saying, "well they aren't students" or it may be violent when none of that happened yet...for ut at least. To me, yall are trying to find excuses to de legitimize the protests.

 

[UriUT]

Pardon me while I stick my nose into the conversation.

It's absolutely true that reports and statements from public figures focusing on the agitators that have infiltrated the groups give those infiltrators exactly what they want, which is to take the reporting focus off of what's being protested.

It's also true that a lot of those doing that reporting and making those statements are all too happy to take the focus of what's being protested.

At the same time, I don't think any of us who are talking about the agitators are trying to shift the focus away from what is being protested and I don't think any of us have lost sight of the importance of what's being protested.

That is the failure of the Columbia protest. And in general the weakness of protests by students. The general Americans have a hard time empathizing with them. The Vietnam War protests had very little impact until the Kent state massacre. The view it appears, and I see about 20-30 to 1 post [on threads] calling the students hamas loving, out of touch ivy league elitists, this is the education that ivy league schools? And it took one visiting Israeli professor to claim antisemitism and the media blew up against them. It's easy to discredit them using any of the excuses.

 

[Incumbent]

But at the same time, it appears that yall question the authenticity of the protests by saying, "well they aren't students" or it may be violent when none of that happened yet...for ut at least. To me, yall are trying to find excuses to de legitimize the protests.

I don’t know how you got there. Let’s clear it up if we can.

I think my views are aligned with some others here but I don’t want to speak for them.

I follow the news, including local. I see the large crowds and so I can recognize that the arrests are an outlier and not representative of the whole. I assumed we are all working with that same basic understanding. So, yeah, it stands out to me that when arrests are disproportionate to the composition of the larger group, I think that’s concerning. I’m not trying to discredit well-meaning protesters, I’m saying I think these school-unaffiliated protesters are doing exactly that, and I worry that they are trying to manipulate events for their own ends.

 

[UriUT]

I don’t know how you got there. Let’s clear it up if we can.

I think my views are aligned with some others here but I don’t want to speak for them.

I follow the news, including local. I see the large crowds and so I can recognize that the arrests are an outlier and not representative of the whole. I assumed we are all working with that same basic understanding. So, yeah, it stands out to me that when arrests are disproportionate to the composition of the larger group, I think that’s concerning. I’m not trying to discredit well-meaning protesters, I’m saying I think these school-unaffiliated protesters are doing exactly that, and I worry that they are trying to manipulate events for their own ends.

OK. So why do you worry? Have the students messaging changed? Were they violent? Did you want only students protesting?

 

[Heathen]

Whenever people mask their identities, we should be careful of assigning an identity to them. This applies to both the pro-Palestinian protestors and the anti-protestor group who attacked them. We don’t know who they were, do we? It wouldn’t surprise me to find out this group was possibly a right wing or anarchist group, and I don’t eliminate the possibility of a political operation to sow violence.

I think it's a good thing to remember, and I agree. However, I also think that if you're going to target protests against genocide by Israel through taunting and trying to bait people into conflict, as well as injuring protestors outright - all while draped in and waving the Israeli flag, the label of Zionist is a safe bet.

We definitely do know who some of them are - and most zionists by their nature are right wing. I think it's important to note that it may not be 'right wing' in the American political sense - but in their views on Israel. Of course we know Republicans are mostly that way in their stance on Israel, but so are many Democrats.

With the UCLA incident as a first example, there were identified zionists who had planned / initiated taunting and/or attacks on protestors, including known provacateur Eli Tsives:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GMDe1OJaoAAPYL9?format=jpg&name=medium

 

[Heathen]

That being understood, the violence on campuses I attribute to outside agitation that has a political agenda and isn't representative of those protesting the Palestinian suffering in Gaza, which should be protested.

Do you mean an American political agenda?

 

[Heathen]

Full disclosure, I see all of this from the perspective that begins with the belief that Hamas was goaded into its terror attack on Israel, relying on the predictability of a heavy-handed response from Netanyahu. I believe it’s all part of a destabilization campaign meant - intentionally - to influence global politics. The protests, counter protests, administrative decisions, police turnout; it’s all predictable.

Maybe. It would certainly be interesting to know for sure.

I think it could also be that Israel itself knew about the attack or initiated it themselves to 'justify' squelching out one of the last few remaining settlements of Palestinians in their conquest to rid them from their land entirely.