Israel vs Hamas (2 Viewers)

[GrandAdmiral]

Looks like the fight is on with Israeli soldiers and civilians amongst the dead already. Question becomes, how long before we get dragged into this?

Netanyahu says Israel is ‘at war’ after Hamas launches surprise attack, takes hostages | CNN

Israel’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu declared that the country was “at war” on Saturday, after Palestinian militants in Gaza fired a deadly barrage of rockets and sent gunmen into Israeli territory in a major escalation of the long running conflict between the two sides.

www.cnn.com

 

[Incumbent]

OK. So why do you worry? Have the students messaging changed? Were they violent? Did you want only students protesting?

Why do I worry about agitators provoking chaos and violence? Is that a sincere question?

I’d prefer to not see an escalation of violence to the point of property destruction and bloodshed like we’ve seen in other protests. I certainly don’t trust Abbott and law enforcement in Texas to be restrained.

Beyond that, while you might want to stay hyper-focused on the purpose of the protests, I think there is much more going on and at stake than just protesting war. I think that runs the gamut from trying to understand very complex and longstanding issues in the Middle East, to implications on our presidential election.

 

[Incumbent]

Maybe. It would certainly be interesting to know for sure.

I think it could also be that Israel itself knew about the attack or initiated it themselves to 'justify' squelching out one of the last few remaining settlements of Palestinians in their conquest to rid them from their land entirely.

Yeah, certainly.

I know early on, there was purported video of Hamas fighters being trained by Russian speakers. Not really sure what came of that and we live in an age where confidence in media (both in terms of news and created content) is low.

What is clear is we have adversaries who would benefit from a weakened or authoritarian (and authoritarian-supporting) United States. Putin understands history, human nature, and has the background to spur or use global events to try and bend outcomes in his favor.

 

[DaveXA]

Do you mean an American political agenda?

I mean any political agenda.

 

[UriUT]

Why do I worry about agitators provoking chaos and violence? Is that a sincere question?

I’d prefer to not see an escalation of violence to the point of property destruction and bloodshed like we’ve seen in other protests. I certainly don’t trust Abbott and law enforcement in Texas to be restrained.

Beyond that, while you might want to stay hyper-focused on the purpose of the protests, I think there is much more going on and at stake than just protesting war. I think that runs the gamut from trying to understand very complex and longstanding issues in the Middle East, to implications on our presidential election.

I find it to be completely legitimate, IMHO. Without real evidence, there are concerns that the protest will be violent. In abbotts, proisraeli, and the right wing's case, its the narrative. So why embrace that narrative? Consider this. The black panther were vilified because Americans believed that they were violent. On the contrary we won't worry that the pro asian studies protest at UT years ago would potentially be violent.

Btw, I don't believe that these students are using their energy wisely. It's better served via the electoral process. Get out the votes.

I think that runs the gamut from trying to understand very complex and longstanding issues in the Middle East, to implications on our presidential election.

To this point, there will not be any change when American perception of Israel remains unchanged. Israel has zero consequences because they know America will protect them. That is our political environment.

 

[UriUT]

Yeah, certainly.

I know early on, there was purported video of Hamas fighters being trained by Russian speakers. Not really sure what came of that and we live in an age where confidence in media (both in terms of news and created content) is low.

What is clear is we have adversaries who would benefit from a weakened or authoritarian (and authoritarian-supporting) United States. Putin understands history, human nature, and has the background to spur or use global events to try and bend outcomes in his favor.

I agree. I'm certainly not here to argue that we subvert Biden. Most definitely not a '68 repeat. I just find it unfair to the students and protestors to have a certain narrative against them even if i dont agree with their choice of action. But having awareness, not pointing at anyone in particular here...more Americans in general...serves a possible course change in the future regarding israel and the Palestinians. That is ultimately what I hope these protestors want.

 

[Heathen]

And just because someone had asked about if Israeli government, military etc officials had been making genocidal statements..

Here's one from yesterday from Israel's Minister of Finance:

Smotrich calls for 'no half measures' in the 'total annihilation' of Gaza

***

www.haaretz.com

Finance Minister and member of the security cabinet Bezalel Smotrich called on Monday for annihilating Israel's enemies, saying "There are no half measures. [The Gazan cities of] Rafah, Deir al-Balah, Nuseirat – total annihilation. 'You will blot out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven' – there's no place under heaven."

Make no mistake about it, Israel uses 'Hamas' to broadly define both members of that group AND the Palestinian people.

It's on purpose. It helps them claim to be the victim and cry wolf when someone questions why they slaughtered 10,000 people when they were after a few hundred.

 

[Incumbent]

I agree. I'm certainly not here to argue that we subvert Biden. Most definitely not a '68 repeat. I just find it unfair to the students and protestors to have a certain narrative against them even if i dont agree with their choice of action. But having awareness, not pointing at anyone in particular here...more Americans in general...serves a possible course change in the future regarding israel and the Palestinians. That is ultimately what I hope these protestors want.

I’m not pushing a negative narrative against student protesters. Not sure why I have to keep saying that.

Not everybody who joins in a protest is on the up-and-up. We haven’t just been talking about UT so when I’m referencing violence, I’m including allegations and depictions of that, regardless of where it appears to be coming from. Protests generally start out peaceful until the wrong people get involved or happen on the scene. We saw that in Austin with the fatal shooting of Garrett Foster. I’ve participated in protests and rallies; I support them as a means to raise awareness. I’ve also witnessed needless property damage in downtown by a group who I couldn’t begin to identify in the wake of the George Floyd and Mike Ramos killings. Anarchists? Jackholes? People who just want to watch the world burn?

 

[Heathen]

Law for Palestine Releases Database with 500+ Instances of Israeli Incitement to Genocide – Continuously Updated - Law for Palestine

Law for Palestine Releases Database with 500+ Instances of Israeli Incitement to Genocide – Continuously Updated IMPORTANT: These aren’t the whole 500 statements in our collection. The page will be regularly updated, expanding sources until the entire database—including existing and new...

law4palestine.org

 

[Incumbent]

Law for Palestine Releases Database with 500+ Instances of Israeli Incitement to Genocide – Continuously Updated - Law for Palestine

Law for Palestine Releases Database with 500+ Instances of Israeli Incitement to Genocide – Continuously Updated IMPORTANT: These aren’t the whole 500 statements in our collection. The page will be regularly updated, expanding sources until the entire database—including existing and new...

law4palestine.org

I think this is a longstanding conflict where it’s fair to engage in both-sides, and to recognize the loud presence of those who don’t want to see the other side exist. I guess I don’t feel strongly enough about how accusations of genocide are applied here so long as people are consistent in recognizing it applies to both or neither, but not only one or the other.

 

[UriUT]

I’m not pushing a negative narrative against student protesters. Not sure why I have to keep saying that.

Not everybody who joins in a protest is on the up-and-up. We haven’t just been talking about UT so when I’m referencing violence, I’m including allegations and depictions of that, regardless of where it appears to be coming from. Protests generally start out peaceful until the wrong people get involved or happen on the scene. We saw that in Austin with the fatal shooting of Garrett Foster. I’ve participated in protests and rallies; I support them as a means to raise awareness. I’ve also witnessed needless property damage in downtown by a group who I couldn’t begin to identify in the wake of the George Floyd and Mike Ramos killings. Anarchists? Jackholes? People who just want to watch the world burn?

OK. Sounds fair? Indict someone for something that you find to be an eventuality. The protest must be student only. It cannot have like minded individuals protesting peacefully. Until the eventuality happens.

Here's a timeline of the Columbia event. Peaceful until the tension boils over. And apparently they too demand divestment.

Timeline of the nationwide protest movement that began at Columbia University

Columbia University has announced that it is canceling its main commencement ceremony scheduled for next week because of ongoing pro-Palestinian protests.

apnews.com

Personally, I wasn't aware of the columbia protest till about the 25th or so when this guy comes along.

The Professor Protesting Columbia’s Own Students

How Shai Davidai, a self-described “lefty Israeli,” made himself the face of the campus-protest backlash.

nymag.com

Same attack. Antisemitic, pro hamas messaging.

 

[Incumbent]

OK. Sounds fair? Indict someone for something that you find to be an eventuality. The protest must be student only. It cannot have like minded individuals protesting peacefully. Until the eventuality happens.

What are you even talking about? Where have I said or implied any of that?

My takeaway is that the people affiliated with the universities - students and faculty - appear to make up a significant part of the protesters yet are a smaller proportion of those being arrested. I think that puts students and faculty in a good light and raises questions about some of those people not affiliated with the universities.

If you don’t agree, so be it. I don’t think what I’m saying is unreasonable or controversial.

 

[samiam5211]

What are you even talking about? Where have I said or implied any of that?

My takeaway is that the people affiliated with the universities - students and faculty - appear to make up a significant part of the protesters yet are a smaller proportion of those being arrested. I think that puts students and faculty in a good light and raises questions about some of those people not affiliated with the universities.

If you don’t agree, so be it. I don’t think what I’m saying is unreasonable or controversial.

I think the reason most of the people arrested weren't affiliated with the university is that it was easier to charge those people with trespassing.

I haven't see anything to suggest they were more violent. There isn't really any reason to assume that most of the people arrested were arrested because they were being violent.

 

[Lapaz]

OK. Sounds fair? Indict someone for something that you find to be an eventuality. The protest must be student only. It cannot have like minded individuals protesting peacefully. Until the eventuality happens.

Here's a timeline of the Columbia event. Peaceful until the tension boils over. And apparently they too demand divestment.

Timeline of the nationwide protest movement that began at Columbia University

Columbia University has announced that it is canceling its main commencement ceremony scheduled for next week because of ongoing pro-Palestinian protests.

apnews.com

Personally, I wasn't aware of the columbia protest till about the 25th or so when this guy comes along.

The Professor Protesting Columbia’s Own Students

How Shai Davidai, a self-described “lefty Israeli,” made himself the face of the campus-protest backlash.

nymag.com

Same attack. Antisemitic, pro hamas messaging.

Except for a few extremists, I don’t think the protesters support Hamas. I think most are supporting Palestinians, because those are the ones that are being massacred, and whose land is being destroyed. There are always extremists, such as the ones that support nuking Gaza. The mass civilian killings is the evil that most people are protesting.

 

[Incumbent]

I think the reason most of the people arrested weren't affiliated with the university is that it was easier to charge those people with trespassing.

Okay, that makes a lot of sense.

I don’t think violence has been a significant problem either but tensions do seem to be rising and we also have history as a guide.

 

[DaveXA]

I think the reason most of the people arrested weren't affiliated with the university is that it was easier to charge those people with trespassing.

I haven't see anything to suggest they were more violent. There isn't really any reason to assume that most of the people arrested were arrested because they were being violent.

Yeah, I agree. I know some people are going to the protests with good intentions and are friends of students. No doubt some of those got caught up in the mess. And certainly I think only a handful of the several dozen protesters arrested were actually inciting violence. Most probably were non-students who were supporting friends or whatever.

That said, in a crowd with inflamed feelings, it can easily spiral into a mess with a few knuckleheads riling them up.

 

[Heathen]

I think this is a longstanding conflict where it’s fair to engage in both-sides

Out of curiosity, what 'sides' are you talking about?

I guess I don’t feel strongly enough about how accusations of genocide are applied here so long as people are consistent in recognizing it applies to both or neither, but not only one or the other.

That seems to be the issue for many, unfortunately.

Apparently genocide only fits the narrative when it's something that fits what they are familiar with, not by its very definition and historical importance.

 

[DaveXA]

Out of curiosity, what 'sides' are you talking about?



That seems to be the issue for many, unfortunately. Apparently genocide only fits the narrative when it's something that fits what they are familiar with, not by its very definition.

Well, by the definition you've laid moment. previously, they'd both qualify, although I'd caveat that by saying it's clear Israel is the aggressor at the moment and for the last several months.

 

[UriUT]

Except for a few extremists, I don’t think the protesters support Hamas. I think most are supporting Palestinians, because those are the ones that are being massacred, and whose land is being destroyed. There are always extremists, such as the ones that support nuking Gaza. The mass civilian killings is the evil that most people are protesting.

I wasn't saying that the protestors were antisemtic or pro hamas. That was what the Israeli visiting professor, Shai Davidae accused the Columbia protestors after he confronted them.