Israel vs Hamas (2 Viewers)

[GrandAdmiral]

Looks like the fight is on with Israeli soldiers and civilians amongst the dead already. Question becomes, how long before we get dragged into this?

Netanyahu says Israel is ‘at war’ after Hamas launches surprise attack, takes hostages | CNN

Israel’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu declared that the country was “at war” on Saturday, after Palestinian militants in Gaza fired a deadly barrage of rockets and sent gunmen into Israeli territory in a major escalation of the long running conflict between the two sides.

www.cnn.com

 

[DaveXA]

So again, just like my point in bringing Abbotts action up. It appears that the immediate reaction is to label protestors as violent beforehand. It's to discredit them. The columbia protest was non violent before it escalated to the point that the Administration gave them an ultimatum. How were they violent before that?

Who stated they were violent before it started? I'm sure some are, but I haven't seen anyone here state that.

 

[UriUT]

Since we re discussing bias, how about yall explain to me why israel is so important to the us?

 

[DaveXA]

Since we re discussing bias, how about yall explain to me why israel is so important to the us?

That's already been discussed at length in several other threads. Not sure why you're changing the subject here.

 

[LA - L.A.]

yes, it is.

I have seen many photos and videos indicating support for Hamas from the protests recently. My belief is that these protests started out very peacefully, and with good goals. But from a lot of what I have seen, in some locations, they have attracted pro-Hamas individuals and other anarchist types who are accelerating into violence. The group that attacked the UCLA protest - very suspect. The people that are being arrested in some places have been found to have ties to Hamas and/or terrorism.

Of course, there are some pro-Hamas individuals at the protests, just like there are pro-Israeli apartheid and white christian nationalists at the protests.

During the BLM protests the same thing happened. The protests were exploited by white christian nationalists, anarchists and thieves.

What was your reaction when that happened during the BLM protests? You should have the same reaction here.

It's not organic that all of sudden we're hearing all of these alleged ties between the protests and Hamas, while at the same time a bill, labeling being critical of the Israeli government and its policies as being antisemitic, was quickly drafted, voted on and passed. If it passes in the Senate, it would infringe on the right teachers and students to say anything critical about the Israeli government or their policies while on college campuses and other school grounds.

Ranking Member Nadler Floor Statement on H.R. 6090, the “Antisemitism Awareness Act of 2023”

nadler.house.gov

This definition, adopted by the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance, or IHRA, includes “contemporary examples of antisemitism”. The problem is that these examples may include protected speech, in some contexts, particularly with respect to criticism of the State of Israel.

But while this definition and its examples may have useful applications in certain contexts, by effectively codifying them into Title VI, this bill threatens to chill constitutionally protected speech. Speech that is critical of Israel—alone—does not constitute unlawful discrimination. By encompassing purely political speech about Israel into Title VI’s ambit, the bill sweeps too broadly.

As the ACLU notes, if this legislation were to become law, colleges and universities that want to avoid Title VI investigations, or the potential loss of federal funding, could end up suppressing protected speech criticizing Israel or supporting Palestinians. Moreover, it could result in students and faculty self-censoring their political speech. Even the IHRA definition’s lead author, Kenneth Stern, opposes codifying this definition for this reason.

I have zero doubts that bill was written by the Israeli governments lobbyist here in the US, which is a much more influential in the US than anything Hamas has here. The Israeli fascist are trying to silence US citizens who are critical of their fascist apartheid government. And they're also trying to get us to see any US citizen who speaks out against the Israeli government as being antisemitic and supportive of the Hamas terrorist. Unfortunately, too many people are falling for the Israeli propaganda.

Be aware of that propaganda is being put out by a lot of groups; Hamas, Israel, Putin's Russia, white christian nationalists, anarchists and some we probably don't even know of. Be aware of all of the propaganda so that you don't fall for any of it.

 

[MT15]

So again, just like my point in bringing Abbotts action up. It appears that the immediate reaction is to label protestors as violent beforehand. It's to discredit them. The columbia protest was non violent before it escalated to the point that the Administration gave them an ultimatum. How were they violent before that?

Nobody said they were violent. They did occupy a campus building, and ultimately damaged it, so they should expect the university to take some kind of action at that point.

What I read is that University admin recognized individuals in the occupied building who were known to them to be outside agitators. They contacted the NYPD, who confirmed the identities and who were able to enter the building and clear it without any violence.

 

[UriUT]

Who stated they were violent before it started? I'm sure some are, but I haven't seen anyone here state that.

Please don't use this approach with me. I may not be the brightest crayon, but you dont need to treat me like an idiot. The implications is in incumbents post. He wants to know what forces leads to violence. What are the motives...it's implied.

 

[DaveXA]

Of course, there are some pro-Hamas individuals at the protests, just like there are pro-Israeli apartheid and white christian nationalists at the protests.

During the BLM protests the same thing happened. The protests were exploited by white christian nationalists, anarchists and thieves.

What was your reaction when that happened during the BLM protests? You should have the same reaction here.

It's not organic that all of sudden we're hearing all of these alleged ties between the protests and Hamas, while at the same time a bill that would label being critical of the Israeli government and it's policies as being antisemitic. It would infringe on the right for teachers to say anything critical about the Israeli government or their policies.

Ranking Member Nadler Floor Statement on H.R. 6090, the “Antisemitism Awareness Act of 2023”

nadler.house.gov

That bill was written by the Isreali governments lobbyist here in the US, which is a much more influential in the US than anything Hamas has here. The Isreali fascsit are trying to silence US citizens who are critical of their fascist apartheid government. And they're also tyring to get us all to see US citizen who is speaks out against them as being supportive of the Hamas terrorist. Unfortunately, too many people are falling for the Israeli propaganda.

Be aware of that propaganda is being put out by a lot of groups; Hamas, Isreal, Putin's Russia, white christian nationalists, anarchists and some we probably don't even know of. Be aware of all of the progaganda so that you don't fall for any of it.

That bill is outrageous and hopefully never becomes law.

And yes, the protests are exploited for other purposes, certainly radicals on both sides. I don't trust either of them and no one should allow them to hijack the message of the real protesters.

 

[DaveXA]

Please don't use this approach with me. I may not be the brightest crayon, but you dont need to treat me like an idiot. The implications is in incumbents post. He wants to know what forces leads to violence. What are the motives...it's implied.

All due respect, but I didn't call or imply that you're an idiot. That certainly wasn’t my intent. Not sure why you stated this.

 

[MT15]

Of course, there are some pro-Hamas individuals at the protests, just like there are pro-Israeli apartheid and white christian nationalists at the protests.

During the BLM protests the same thing happened. The protests were exploited by white christian nationalists, anarchists and thieves.

What was your reaction when that happened during the BLM protests? You should have the same reaction here.

It's not organic that all of sudden we're hearing all of these alleged ties between the protests and Hamas, while at the same time a bill that would label being critical of the Israeli government and it's policies as being antisemitic. It would infringe on the right for teachers to say anything critical about the Israeli government or their policies.

Ranking Member Nadler Floor Statement on H.R. 6090, the “Antisemitism Awareness Act of 2023”

nadler.house.gov

That bill was written by the Isreali governments lobbyist here in the US, which is a much more influential in the US than anything Hamas has here. The Isreali fascsit are trying to silence US citizens who are critical of their fascist apartheid government. And they're also tyring to get us all to see US citizen who is speaks out against them as being supportive of the Hamas terrorist. Unfortunately, too many people are falling for the Israeli propaganda.

Be aware of that propaganda is being put out by a lot of groups; Hamas, Isreal, Putin's Russia, white christian nationalists, anarchists and some we probably don't even know of. Be aware of all of the progaganda so that you don't fall for any of it.

I find this post to be a bit condescending. We are seeing the arrests, we are starting to know who some of the people are who are being arrested in some of the protests. It’s not propaganda that some Hamas supporters have infiltrated some of the protests. It’s not propaganda to note that we don’t know who the people were who attacked the protest at UCLA. When it happened to BLM protests I called it out as well. I’m not sure where you get the idea that I am falling for some sort of propaganda.

 

[Incumbent]

Please don't use this approach with me. I may not be the brightest crayon, but you dont need to treat me like an idiot. The implications is in incumbents post. He wants to know what forces leads to violence. What are the motives...it's implied.

I’m not sure about what you aren’t understanding.

I am concerned that outside agitators are using protests as an opportunity to encourage violence and chaos. Reports provide evidence that many of the people being arrested aren’t affiliated with universities where they are taking part in protests.

 

[LA - L.A.]

I'm not convinced Israel wouldn't target an area with US soldiers. It would be a dumb move, but they're not above running false flag ops or even openly targeting Hamas operatives to try and pin blame on Palestinians or Hamas for the loss of a soldier or several. This situation is fraught with risks all the way around and just because US soldiers are on the ground assisting Gazans doesn't make them remotely safe.

There's some wishful thinking on my part, because I really want the people in Gaza to get some relief, and the US wouldn't be fooled by a Israeli false flag operation and I don't want to think about what might happen if Israeli's inflict causalities on American troops.

As for the genocide thing, I'll just say that if what Israel and Hamas are doing is defined as genocide, then pretty much every major country has willfully participated in some form of genocide. And that's why there's a sense that it's diluted.

The tragic thing is that there is a whole lot of genocide across the planet throughout history and currently, and no major country has clean hands. I think people think it's diluted, because they only think of it as mass murder. Genocide includes more than that. That's why when I talk about genocide in the form of mass murder, I specifically refer to it as mass murder.

That said, whether one thinks it's genocide or not, it's a forked up situation any way you look at it. Both Hamas and Israel are to blame for getting to where we are now. It's going to take both compromising and being willing to find a way to coexist as neighbors, in a two state solution that allows the Palestinians sovereignty and allow Israel security.

It can be done, but they both have to want the hostilities to stop.

That's how I see it to and I hope somehow the peaceful majority find a way to take power back from the trouble making minority.

 

[UriUT]

So, back to the point of the npr article. Accusing a movement of outside agitators means that the the protestors wouldn't be protesting if someone isn't egging them to do so. The violence worry further attempts to discredit them before they before it even happens, like abbott.

So in our contemporary context—especially since the Black Lives Matter movement erupted around 2013 and 2014—it's been utilized against activists who are trying to transform the criminal justice system in the United States. Basically, what it's meant is that whatever conflict, political rebellion or demonstration is happening, it's not organically home grown, it's not authentic. That none of these troubles would happen if not for outside agitators.

 

[DaveXA]

There's some wishful thinking on my part, because I really want the people in Gaza to get some relief, and the US wouldn't be fooled by a Israeli false flag operation and I don't want to think about what might happen if Israeli's inflict causalities on American troops.

Indeed.

The tragic thing is that there is a whole lot of genocide across the planet throughout history and currently, and no major country has clean hands. I think people think it's diluted, because they only think of it as mass murder. Genocide includes more than that. That's why when I talk about genocide in the form of mass murder, I specifically refer to it as mass murder.

That's a fair point. I can agree with that.

That's how I see it to and I hope somehow the peaceful majority find a way to take power back from the trouble making minority.

For sure.

 

[Incumbent]

So, back to the point of the npr article. Accusing a movement of outside agitators means that the the protestors wouldn't be protesting if someone isn't egging them to do so. The violence worry further attempts to discredit them before they before it even happens, like abbott.

That’s where the disagreement lies, then. I’m not making that accusation, I’m expressing concern that outside agitators are taking advantage of the protests, after they’ve started, to stir violence and chaos.

However, I did mention a lawsuit in a previous post that involves plaintiffs accusing Hamas of operating/influencing campus groups. Again, I can offer no opinion of the credibility of those claims, but recognize it as a development in an ongoing matter.

Hamas attack survivors sue student protesters

A lawsuit alleges that two groups are "aiding and abetting" Hamas amid nationwide campus protests against Israel's offensive in Gaza.

www.newsweek.com

 

[LA - L.A.]

We are seeing this happen in various locations. It’s been a gradual shift, but we are seeing it. It has been morphing away from divestment and a cease fire and more to support for Hamas. There has been a definite escalation in some areas. When the majority of people arrested are not students or affiliated with the university, it should at least raise questions about who are these people and what is their goal?

We are seeing some protesters and counter-protestors engaging in violence, just like what happened in the BLM protests.

If we look at everything going on in the protests, we do not actually see the entirety of the protest morphing away to support Hamas, just like we didn't see all BLM protesters engaging in violence, calling for violence or looting.

You seem to not consider the highly likely and very real possibility that Israeli agents are inciting the violence at these protests and the pro-Hamas rhetoric to discredit the protesters and silence any criticism of Isreali policies. Israel is historically one of the biggest user of false flag tactics. Netanyahu helped strengthen Hamas to help him his push his agenda in Israel. When it comes to dirty propaganda tricks, Israel is just as bad, if not worse, than Hamas. That's not an opinion, that's known history.

 

[DaveXA]

So, back to the point of the npr article. Accusing a movement of outside agitators means that the the protestors wouldn't be protesting if someone isn't egging them to do so. The violence worry further attempts to discredit them before they before it even happens, like abbott.

I'll just say that I think the protests in both the BLM movement and in the case of students protesting the slaughter of Palestinians in Gaza both started out as legitimate, organic and authentic. I think in the current situation, they still are. Just because agitators and dubious actors are trying to take advantage of the situation doesn't deligitimize the origin of the protests.

 

[MT15]

Accusing a movement of outside agitators means that the the protestors wouldn't be protesting if someone isn't egging them to do so.

I certainly don’t feel this way. I’m not sure how much more clear I can make it when I say that these protests started off with laudable goals and have slowly shifted their focus, in some cases. i support peaceful protests and efforts to get universities to divest. That’s not what we are seeing now in some locations and simply stating what is going on isn’t denigrating the original protest goals.

Even if there were no evidence of outside agitation, damaging university property and preventing students from accessing university buildings isn’t going to win any sympathy for your cause. But there is evidence of people from outside the university taking part, especially in locations where there have been arrests.

There are other locations where violence has been avoided and protests have achieved some of their goals. I think it was Colgate where I read that students and admin have agreed to have serious discussions about divesting and the students dismantled their encampment. Our local protest was a bit sticky due to protestors erecting a wooden structure instead of just tents, but after talks the students agreed to take down the wooden structure. They are also not obstructing use of any university buildings.

 

[MT15]

You seem to not consider the highly likely and very real possibility that Israeli agents are inciting the violence at these protests

You would be wrong about this.