Israel vs Hamas (4 Viewers)

[GrandAdmiral]

Looks like the fight is on with Israeli soldiers and civilians amongst the dead already. Question becomes, how long before we get dragged into this?

Netanyahu says Israel is ‘at war’ after Hamas launches surprise attack, takes hostages | CNN

Israel’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu declared that the country was “at war” on Saturday, after Palestinian militants in Gaza fired a deadly barrage of rockets and sent gunmen into Israeli territory in a major escalation of the long running conflict between the two sides.

www.cnn.com

 

[Incumbent]

Out of curiosity, what 'sides' are you talking about?

I wouldn’t have thought there was ambiguity about that.

In a broad sense, regional tensions that linger between regimes and that pit sects and religions against each other. In this moment, Israel and, currently, Hamas. The underlying problem is an unwilingness to reach a point of coexistence. Opposition is entrenched across aisles.

I used “both-sides” as a reference to the political idea of equating involvement - but I do believe there is blame to go around. Do you not?

 

[MT15]

I haven't see anything to suggest they were more violent. There isn't really any reason to assume that most of the people arrested were arrested because they were being violent.

I don’t think people on here were saying they were violent either. There was destruction of university property and occupying a university building that resulted in arrests. The possibility being suggested is that this acceleration came about after outside people unaffiliated with the university joined. It is a possibility - that people with bad intent will try to damage the protests in the general public’s view.

Personally, I agree with others that the vandalism and occupation of buildings is harmful to the student’s cause. As are the incidents of student harassment, even if they are sporadic. They harm whoever is doing them.

 

[samiam5211]

I don’t think people on here were saying they were violent either. There was destruction of university property and occupying a university building that resulted in arrests. The possibility being suggested is that this acceleration came about after outside people unaffiliated with the university joined. It is a possibility - that people with bad intent will try to damage the protests in the general public’s view.

Personally, I agree with others that the vandalism and occupation of buildings is harmful to the student’s cause. As are the incidents of student harassment, even if they are sporadic. They harm whoever is doing them.

Sure but that was just Columbia.

Maybe a couple of other places had some issues, but the police have come in and shut them down almost everywhere. I get why they took down UCLA, because it had become a target for people to come and try to start fights with the protestors.

I don't think we should have a problem with people who have experience organizing protests coming in and trying to help organize the protests. That is much of what is being referred to as "outside instigators" by the police and media.

The NY police chief and Mayor have been especially pathetic about spreading nonsense. He was claiming that a chain and lock was proof that outside people were involved, when the exact same chain and lock is sold by Columbia for students to lock up their bikes or other property.

 

[MT15]

That is much of what is being referred to as "outside instigators" by the police and media.

Agree with most everything you said, but the people recognized were not simply organizers, according to what I saw. I guess we will know for sure eventually, if the press will follow and report on the court cases.

Also - I’m not 100% sure the chain thing is as you say. I only saw a quick shot on TV of the chains recommended by Columbia, but they seemed to be the typical plastic covered chains used to lock bikes for years. What the police were showing on TV was a very large chain that I have never seen used to lock a bike. The links were easily several inches long, it would have been heavier than anything used to secure a bike. The police did say they used bicycle locks to secure the chains, so maybe that is where the confusion came in. It doesn’t really matter, because anyone could have bought that chain. They intentionally took over the building and were prepared to secure the doors, so where the chain came from doesn’t really matter.

 

[MT15]

A good thread from a prof who went to his university’s protest to see what is up. This one is in Toronto. I will post the first 2, you can go read the rest if you like.

 

[samiam5211]

Agree with most everything you said, but the people recognized were not simply organizers, according to what I saw. I guess we will know for sure eventually, if the press will follow and report on the court cases.

Also - I’m not 100% sure the chain thing is as you say. I only saw a quick shot on TV of the chains recommended by Columbia, but they seemed to be the typical plastic covered chains used to lock bikes for years. What the police were showing on TV was a very large chain that I have never seen used to lock a bike. The links were easily several inches long, it would have been heavier than anything used to secure a bike. The police did say they used bicycle locks to secure the chains, so maybe that is where the confusion came in. It doesn’t really matter, because anyone could have bought that chain. They intentionally took over the building and were prepared to secure the doors, so where the chain came from doesn’t really matter.

NYPD Claims Bike Locks Evidence of 'Professional' Protesters at Columbia

The NYPD claimed bike locks sold by Columbia University to students were evidence of "professional" agitators infiltrating protests.

www.rollingstone.com

 

[MT15]

I wouldn’t be surprised one bit if the people attacking the protestors at UCLA were right wingers disguising themselves. Especially since it was alleged the police stood by and did nothing.

Another attempted attack at a protest.

 

[SamAndreas]

I've been growing a bit concerned by the threat of civil violence on our elections. Basically my life's experience it that if one wants a conservative as hell government to be elected in the US, engineer it to have lots of civil unrest in our cities and especially on our campuses during the election year. I actually remember this factor ensuring the re-election of Nixon.

As soon as the protesters have been labeled by the media as "students" there's apparently no going back on that one even when they are not primarily "students." It's been fun and old hat for the news media to label all dissidents as being students since I was a kid.

NBC News is reporting that about half of the New York state protesters who have been arrested are not students there at all.

My sense of what this protest movement is, is that it's basically a reenactment of the battle of Waterloo, for all the good that does anyone.


I think, I hope, it will blow over. The media is pumping the actual violence and damage reports up to being a lot bigger than it appears to me to be.

California did one thing right. We used the highway patrol instead of using our local cops at UCLA. The California patrol is a well trained force. I watched quite a bit of video and I didn't see any of the patrol officers using excessive force.

It was very professional, and as a result the number of injuries amoung the protesters were reduced.

 

[Heathen]

I wouldn’t have thought there was ambiguity about that.

It was a clarifying question.

I used “both-sides” as a reference to the political idea of equating involvement - but I do believe there is blame to go around. Do you not?

I’m aware of that.

I think there’s blame to go around, sure. I don’t believe there is much “both sides” equivalence in terms of the volume of crime committed against humanity between Hamas and Israel, no. Israel takes the cake.

 

[Incumbent]

It was a clarifying question.



I’m aware of that.

I think there’s blame to go around, sure. I don’t believe there is much “both sides” equivalence in terms of the volume of crime committed against humanity between Hamas and Israel, no. Israel takes the cake.

I’m not an apologist for Israel. I’m also not an apologist for Islamic terrorist groups. I think the response by the Netanyahu administration to the October terror attack has been way too extreme but I also think there can’t meaningfully be a Free-Palestine until it has been liberated from Hamas and any other Islamic extremist groups; a problem we see play out across the Middle East. There is a long and complicated history there with no easy answers.

 

[SamAndreas]

I wouldn’t be surprised one bit if the people attacking the protestors at UCLA were right wingers disguising themselves. Especially since it was alleged the police stood by and did nothing.

Another attempted attack at a protest.

I've lived in the San Francisco area for years. I would doubt that they are right wingers because there are well established groups of anarchists all up and down the coast. Those nilalist radicals like to take over other people's protests and bend them to their own brand of chaos. They've been taking over other people's protests around here and making them violent for coming on 20 years I guess.

They aren't a large group, not a single percent of the population, but with 40 million people in California they can bring together a fair sized crowd in any one spot. Some of them like to dress Ninja.

It's made it kind of dangerous to go-a-protesting. I used to like to go-a-protesting once in a while, but no more, not with the way it is now.

 

[Eeyore]

Florida Attorney General

 

[Heathen]

I’m not an apologist for Israel. I’m also not an apologist for Islamic terrorist groups. I think the response by the Netanyahu administration to the October terror attack has been way too extreme but I also think there can’t meaningfully be a Free-Palestine until it has been liberated from Hamas and any other Islamic extremist groups; a problem we see play out across the Middle East. There is a long and complicated history there with no easy answers.

To be clear, I wasn’t insinuating that you were an apologist for either terrorist group. I don’t think anyone here is. I was only clarifying that it’s a very one sided situation, in my opinion.

Israel played a huge part in creating Hamas, and is a much, much bigger roadblock to a Palestinian state than Hamas, considering they have stolen land and implemented apartheid against the Palestinian people since the 1940’s. Not to mention have slaughtered more Palestinians than Hamas ever has (organized around 1987). And of course, stating this does in no way infer that I believe Hamas is any less egregious.

So you are right that this has been a longstanding and complex issue, but I don’t think there’s much complexity in determining who has been the primary oppressor.

 

[Incumbent]

To be clear, I wasn’t insinuating that you were an apologist for either terrorist group. I don’t think anyone here is. I was only clarifying that it’s a very one sided situation, in my opinion.

Israel played a huge part in creating Hamas, and is a much, much bigger roadblock to a Palestinian state than Hamas, considering they have stolen land and implemented apartheid against the Palestinian people since the 1940’s. Not to mention have slaughtered more Palestinians than Hamas ever has (organized around 1987). And of course, stating this does in no way infer that I believe Hamas is any less egregious.

So you are right that this has been a longstanding and complex issue, but I don’t think there’s much complexity in determining who has been the primary oppressor.

Okay, and my understanding of the Israeli perspective is that Palestine has been a staging ground for proxy conflicts and terror attacks, supported by neighboring countries, like Iran and Syria. I don't say that to take Israel's side - the only side I'm on is for people to quit hating and killing each other because of borders and religion - but when you have groups of people who don't think others should exist and live peacefully - something these groups have in common - you are going to have unending bloodshed.

Israel has done a lot to make the situation worse. So have the regimes and governments that don't want Israel to exist. For decades; all who have contributed to the conflicts and unrest. Peace plans have been rejected. Wars have been waged. Terrorists have been funded and supported. I can recognize the inhumanity that Israel is guilty of and also see Hamas and every other radical Islamic group and government for the violence and archaic ideologies they promote. Their human rights track records are abysmal.

I think this guy did a good job of putting this in some perspective. It's a situation that is still far too complicated to summarize in a few bullet points, but I think he makes some important acknowledgements.

"The situation isn't the binary black/white, good/bad the American psyche is culturally programed for."

 

[UriUT]

During the BLM protests the same thing happened. The protests were exploited by white christian nationalists, anarchists and thieves.

What was your reaction when that happened during the BLM protests? You should have the same rereaction here.

Yes, this should be consistent, right?

Examining the long history of the ‘outside agitator’ narrative | CNN

As university administrators and law enforcement crack down on campus protests over Israel’s war in Gaza, they’re invoking a familiar trope: the “outside agitator.”

www.cnn.com

During a speech at the height of the Black Lives Matter protests in 2020, then-President Donald Trump characterized the demonstrations occurring nationwide as being overrun with professional anarchists, violent mobs and other left-wing groups. As he spoke, police forcibly dispersed peaceful protesters outside the White House gates with tear gas, flash grenades and rubber bullets — a move that resulted in uproar and prompted a lawsuit from a coalition of civil rights groups.

For instance, Martin Luther King Jr. and other activists in the Southern Christian Leadership Conference were often called in to assist with civil rights demonstrations across the South. In doing so, they were portrayed as outsiders stirring up trouble — a notion that King rejected.

Or accuse an activist like this lady of stirring up trouble, as white Southerners did with mlk. At least she's consistent in her views.

Lisa Fithian - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Emphasizing ‘outsiders’ serves as a distraction, one scholar says
Given how the trope of the “outside agitator” has been deployed throughout history, Morris says he views recent references to outsiders at these protests as a distraction from the students’ primary aim: Calling attention to the war in Gaza.

Right, so out of the dozens and dozens of protests, we have one that resulted in vandalism. None can say the protests can be violent because it's vastly untrue. But of course to associate violence to these protest against Israel's actions, the discussion is: we worry that outside agitators will lead to violence and chaos. Yeah, condemn these protestors for what may happen to delegitimize this movement. FYI, there were many white Northerners involved in the Civil rights movement. Does that take away what Black folks fought?

 

[UriUT]

Okay, and my understanding of the Israeli perspective is that Palestine has been a staging ground for proxy conflicts and terror attacks, supported by neighboring countries, like Iran and Syria. I don't say that to take Israel's side - the only side I'm on is for people to quit hating and killing each other because of borders and religion - but when you have groups of people who don't think others should exist and live peacefully - something these groups have in common - you are going to have unending bloodshed.

Israel has done a lot to make the situation worse. So have the regimes and governments that don't want Israel to exist. For decades; all who have contributed to the conflicts and unrest. Peace plans have been rejected. Wars have been waged. Terrorists have been funded and supported. I can recognize the inhumanity that Israel is guilty of and also see Hamas and every other radical Islamic group and government for the violence and archaic ideologies they promote. Their human rights track records are abysmal.

I think this guy did a good job of putting this in some perspective. It's a situation that is still far too complicated to summarize in a few bullet points, but I think he makes some important acknowledgements.

"The situation isn't the binary black/white, good/bad the American psyche is culturally programed for."

What he says isnt completely true. Netanyahu doesn't want peace and he's not alone amongst Israeli leadership in his views. Hamas doesn't want peace. But the Palestinian Authority was amenable to peaceful coexistence. So much so that they lost credibility when they tried to quel Palestinians who reacted to Israeli west Bank settlers attacking them violently. Netanyahu has been caught before the October attack saying in private that he opposed any plans of a two state solution (he publicly says he does). Now hes completely oppose to any coexistance. And his policy is consistent with that view. He allowed millions of dollars to past through to hamas. And hamas played along with him to lead Netanyahu to believe they were cooperating. Hamas allowed the idf to make incursions to arrest hamas' ally leaders into Gaza. This was all to prop up hamas and weaken the pa.

The leadership that are in power now are directly involved in the Rabin assassination. Netanyahu called for rabins death. And one who's also in government now lead that violent protest where one extremist killed Rabin.

The whole situation may be complex, but the impediment towards peace is clear. It's this extreme far right israeli government. Hamas can be marginalized if the pa is given more opportunity. Hezbollah and iran can be contained as shown by us military presence. And the sunni Arabs have moved on from the Palestinian cause.

Edit: just to remind folks, what hamas did is egregious, but the Israeli founders committed atrocious acts. That isn't to both sides the violence but to put in perspective that violent organization can evolve into functional governing bodies. Like the IRA. Peace can be achieved. And it starts in america.

 

[Incumbent]

What he says isnt completely true. Netanyahu doesn't want peace and he's not alone amongst Israeli leadership in his views. Hamas doesn't want peace. But the Palestinian Authority was amenable to peaceful coexistence. So much so that they lost credibility when they tried to quel Palestinians who reacted to Israeli west Bank settlers attacking them violently. Netanyahu has been caught before the October attack saying in private that he opposed any plans of a two state solution (he publicly says he does). Now hes completely oppose to any coexistance. And his policy is consistent with that view. He allowed millions of dollars to past through to hamas. And hamas played along with him to lead Netanyahu to believe they were cooperating. Hamas allowed the idf to make incursions to arrest hamas' ally leaders into Gaza. This was all to prop up hamas and weaken the pa.

The leadership that are in power now are directly involved in the Rabin assassination. Netanyahu called for rabins death. And one who's also in government now lead that violent protest where one extremist killed Rabin.

The whole situation may be complex, but the impediment towards peace is clear. It's this extreme far right israeli government. Hamas can be marginalized if the pa is given more opportunity. Hezbollah and iran can be contained as shown by us military presence. And the sunni Arabs have moved on from the Palestinian cause.

Edit: just to remind folks, what hamas did is egregious, but the Israeli founders committed atrocious acts. That isn't to both sides the violence but to put in perspective that violent organization can evolve into functional governing bodies. Like the IRA. Peace can be achieved. And it starts in america.

I think most people, who hope for an eventual peaceful resolution, understand that can’t happen without an Israeli government change and a fundamental repositioning of policy.

It’s also still true that there are entities in the Middle East that want to see Israel wiped out.

 

[UriUT]

I think most people, who hope for an eventual peaceful resolution, understand that can’t happen without an Israeli government change and a fundamental repositioning of policy.

It’s also still true that there are entities in the Middle East that want to see Israel wiped out.

The sunnis have essentially acquiesced to Israel's right to exists. The only forces left is iran and their proxy like hezbollah and those in Yemen. Part of their complaint is the treatment of Palestinians. Take that away and all they have is a raving rant of Israel's destruction that no one will put weight. Iran minimalized their attack on Israel because of American military presence. Consider this. It is an act of war to attack a sovereign country's consulate or embassy. Yet Isreal did just that to iran. No diplomatic process. Straight up bombed it. Yet iran refrained.

And to changing Israel's stance. How would they change when Americans won't change? Netanyahu calculated long ago that israel shouldn't fear losing American support. It was the Israeli thinking then that they must not interfere into American politics for fear that they would lose vital American support from either side. Netanyahu say bullshirt. He politicized it. He attacked Obama politically. He embarrassed Obama by making a political speech in front of congress. He defied American leadership at every turn. Trump more than willing gave him everything he wanted. So yeah, Netanyahu s right. He doesn't need to fear losing America. He can do as he pleases. Steal land in the west Bank. Take Jerusalem. Now setup to take land in Gaza.

And you know the worst part? A good number of those violent west Bank thugs who commit unspeakable violence against Palestinians are Americans? We export violence.