Israel vs Hamas (2 Viewers)

[GrandAdmiral]

Looks like the fight is on with Israeli soldiers and civilians amongst the dead already. Question becomes, how long before we get dragged into this?

Netanyahu says Israel is ‘at war’ after Hamas launches surprise attack, takes hostages | CNN

Israel’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu declared that the country was “at war” on Saturday, after Palestinian militants in Gaza fired a deadly barrage of rockets and sent gunmen into Israeli territory in a major escalation of the long running conflict between the two sides.

www.cnn.com

 

[GrandAdmiral]

That’s fine, but where are the calls for warrants for those who killed and kidnapped on October 7? I have even seen people on this very board excusing what they did.

I don’t like what the IDF is doing, but we seem to be overlooking what Hamas did, and not only Hamas, but a bunch of civilians from Gaza who also participated when it was evident that the Israelis were defenseless.

I just don’t want a double standard. There are no good guys here. Both sides have killed innocents, full stop.

I don't think anyone here (give or take a few) is dismissing what Hamas has done. I think most who are complaining, as I am, are complaining how folks seem ok to let Israel do whatever they want, innocent lives be damned. That's the problem.

There are innocent people on both sides being sacrificed and all the US and Israeli government want to talk about are the hostages. But neither government, particularly the US government want to acknowledge what's approaching genocide to the Palestinians.

I stand with the hostages as much as the Gazans who are caught in the middle of this. But Netanyahu and the IDF are committing war crimes, and Biden, who I supported, is acting like he's scared to say something, just like every other president not named Obama.

Someone who studies millennial politics mentioned this last night. Millennials may cause Biden to lose his job over Gaza. These are not the same voters who supported him four years ago. This is a new crop of new voters and right now, they don't care one bit about Trump and his antics and the White House doesn't seem to care or realize it. Either way, it's malfeasance to not address it.

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

Forgive me (or not) if I call BS to pretty much anything coming from the IDF. They might as well have Baghdad Bob as their spokeperson.

There are rogue characters in every workplace/agency/whatever on the face of this planet...

I just found an employee clocking in from home instead of the site she's assigned to.

Russia has rogue soldiers either alienating their troops or conducting downright sabotage.

Ukraine has fired and arrested several individuals, including high-ranking officers for sympathizing with the enemy.

It happens everywhere, so all of this outrage is just giving cause for Israel and the IDF to continue to kill off innocent Gazans in the name of destroying Hamas. I don't even know if that is their mission anymore if you listen to Netanyahu close enough.

And like clockwork, the US falls for it hook, line, and sinker.

Yet stories like this continue to come out...

‘We are dying slowly.’ Children go to bed hungry and parents scavenge for food as famine looms in Gaza | CNN

Hanadi Gamal Saed El Jamara, 38, says sleep is all that can distract her children from the aching hunger gnawing at their bellies.

www.cnn.com

with not a word from folks, including some here on this board.

I can't stand this. I don't post here much right now because I don't want to think about the war in Gaza. What Hamas did was horrific and what Israel is doing is horrific. What is wrong with people?

 

[coldseat]

This is why you don't elect a right wing ideological government to represent you. They will turn a blind eye to your suffering in order to achieve their ideological goal.

Not specific to this poor lady, but as a country.

 

[Heathen]

I haven't seen a single instance of anyone making an excuse for or defending Hamas or what they did on Oct 7th. But it seems disgusting if true.

However, as some have pointed out correctly - alternatively there has been a lack of widespread condemnation for a much larger atrocity that the IDF have committed against the Palestinian people since October 7th (and yes, they're still slaughtering people).

 

[MT15]

I don't think anyone here (give or take a few) is dismissing what Hamas has done. I think most who are complaining, as I am, are complaining how folks seem ok to let Israel do whatever they want, innocent lives be damned. That's the problem.

There are innocent people on both sides being sacrificed and all the US and Israeli government want to talk about are the hostages. But neither government, particularly the US government want to acknowledge what's approaching genocide to the Palestinians.

I stand with the hostages as much as the Gazans who are caught in the middle of this. But Netanyahu and the IDF are committing war crimes, and Biden, who I supported, is acting like he's scared to say something, just like every other president not named Obama.

Someone who studies millennial politics mentioned this last night. Millennials may cause Biden to lose his job over Gaza. These are not the same voters who supported him four years ago. This is a new crop of new voters and right now, they don't care one bit about Trump and his antics and the White House doesn't seem to care or realize it. Either way, it's malfeasance to not address it.

Here are my thoughts.

1. We don’t know what Biden is doing behind the scenes. He IS supporting a 2 state solution, more than any GOP president would. He has become frustrated about the Israeli government. He wants to end the war and get the hostages back. He doesn’t run the Israeli government, and they are a long time ally. The Israeli people elected that government, they have to get rid of it and nothing would please Biden more. He dislikes Netanyahu strongly.

2. If people decide to forsake Biden, they will get Trump or Haley. See how everything goes for Gaza then. Both, IMO, would allow Israel to occupy Gaza and then talk of ethnic cleansing would get real.

3. Not only would Gaza suffer more than if Biden were re-elected, US women will nationally lose their right to get an abortion if they need one, and LBGTQ people will be treated as pariahs again with new laws discriminating against them. Our country would be screwed in a horrible way, even with Haley. She will sign a national abortion ban, she won’t stand up to the Christian nationalists in the GOP, and she is a hawk on foreign policy. Gone will be lower drug prices, social security and Medicare/Medicaid will be drastically cut, they will try to repeal the ACA. Voting rights will not be protected as the SCOTUS has decreed that only the DOJ can enforce them, no longer can ordinary citizens sue for that.

4. As much as you don’t believe anything the IDF says at face value, (which is fine) the same goes for any information coming out of Gaza. Hamas is involved in everything that comes out of there. Iran seems to be waging a social media campaign to influence US progressives. It seems to be working.

5. The irony is that by becoming a one-issue voter to protest the US not pushing back hard enough against a right-wing religious zealot government, people will be helping the US get their own right wing religious zealot government. I really, really don’t want to live in that country. I don’t believe that having a repressive right wing government will “teach us a lesson”. It’s a foolhardy idea. Rights will be stripped away, and even more conservative judges and possibly justices will be appointed. It will set us back for more than a generation.

As much as I hate what the IDF is doing, it’s not like Biden can actually stop it. He’s trying to influence Israel as much as he can at this point in time. He’s the best option we have at this point.

 

[GrandAdmiral]

1. We don’t know what Biden is doing behind the scenes. He IS supporting a 2 state solution, more than any GOP president would. He has become frustrated about the Israeli government. He wants to end the war and get the hostages back. He doesn’t run the Israeli government, and they are a long time ally. The Israeli people elected that government, they have to get rid of it and nothing would please Biden more. He dislikes Netanyahu strongly.

He has become frustrated, yet it is US policy to say or do nothing that will piss Israel off. The recent UN vote, that ONLY the U.S. was against, is proof of that.

2. If people decide to forsake Biden, they will get Trump or Haley. See how everything goes for Gaza then. Both, IMO, would allow Israel to occupy Gaza and then talk of ethnic cleansing would get real.

I'm not saying it's right, but it can possibly happen. Biden and everyone else need to get out of this "it's either me or Trump" thing. As I mentioned from that interview last night, this new crop of voters have a larger world view and don't care.

3. Not only would Gaza suffer more than if Biden were re-elected, US women will nationally lose their right to get an abortion if they need one, and LBGTQ people will be treated as pariahs again with new laws discriminating against them. Our country would be screwed in a horrible way, even with Haley. She will sign a national abortion ban, she won’t stand up to the Christian nationalists in the GOP, and she is a hawk on foreign policy. Gone will be lower drug prices, social security and Medicare/Medicaid will be drastically cut, they will try to repeal the ACA. Voting rights will not be protected as the SCOTUS has decreed that only the DOJ can enforce them, no longer can ordinary citizens sue for that.

You get no argument from me on any of that, but these voters see what's happening in Gaza and is tying it to a lot of what's happening here. They're justified in doing so.

4. As much as you don’t believe anything the IDF says at face value, (which is fine) the same goes for any information coming out of Gaza. Hamas is involved in everything that comes out of there. Iran seems to be waging a social media campaign to influence US progressives. It seems to be working.

Where have you seen me quote anything from a Hamas media source? Every video I posted came from CNN. They were on the scene. And they vetted matters where they were not. They interviewed victims. I thought you knew me better than that to make such a claim.

5. The irony is that by becoming a one-issue voter to protest the US not pushing back hard enough against a right-wing religious zealot government, people will be helping the US get their own right wing religious zealot government. I really, really don’t want to live in that country. I don’t believe that having a repressive right wing government will “teach us a lesson”. It’s a foolhardy idea. Rights will be stripped away, and even more conservative judges and possibly justices will be appointed. It will set us back for more than a generation.

You're wrong. This is not a one issue situation with this group of voters:

• Wage inequality
• Voting rights
• The student loan crisis
• Human rights (including reproductive rights)
• The Willow Pipeline Project in Alaska

Rightfully or not, they see these issues as undelivered/broken promises from Biden (he definitely reneged on the pipeline). Gaza is the straw that broke the camel's back with them. It's not a one issue situation.

As much as I hate what the IDF is doing, it’s not like Biden can actually stop it. He’s trying to influence Israel as much as he can at this point in time. He’s the best option we have at this point.

The US has way more influence over Israel than you think. They refuse to exercise it. Even Biden admitted he disagreed with Obama on his policy on Israel because everyone seems to have this frame of thought that if you disagree with anything involving Israel, including policy, you're an anti-Semite. So what about an Israeli who disagree with that same policy (because they definitely exist)?

 

[MT15]

Where have you seen me quote anything from a Hamas media source?

I worded that poorly. It wasn’t meant to refer to you personally. But even being on the scene, I would imagine Hamas controls what journalists are allowed to see in Gaza. Just like Israel tries to control the reporting in the same manner. I’m skeptical of most everything I see now from this war.

I am truly worried about what will happen if we get a GOP president. I don’t think people have an appreciation of how much worse it could get with the way the entire GOP has gone crazy.

If young people are truly blaming Biden for wage inequality when he has done more to shrink that gap than anyone, I don’t know what to tell them. I just saw an article a couple months ago about that.

It’s truly a cut off your nose to spite your face situation, IMO.

 

[zztop]

I'm struggling to understand why the US would supply weapons to the IDf, which in turn kills lots of innocent people with them

Group of Democrats call on Blinken to provide answers on bypassing Congress to approve arms sales to Israel | CNN Politics

A group of 19 predominantly Democratic lawmakers is calling on Secretary of State Antony Blinken to provide answers about why he bypassed Congress last month to approve arms sales to Israel.

www.cnn.com

In their letter, the lawmakers noted the rarity of administrations using emergency declarations to immediately approve arms sales without congressional approval. They also referenced the standards under US policies, such as the Leahy Law, to not provide military assistance to security forces credibly accused of gross human rights violations.

 

[LA - L.A.]

I'm struggling to understand why the US would supply weapons to the IDf, which in turn kills lots of innocent people with them

Group of Democrats call on Blinken to provide answers on bypassing Congress to approve arms sales to Israel | CNN Politics

A group of 19 predominantly Democratic lawmakers is calling on Secretary of State Antony Blinken to provide answers about why he bypassed Congress last month to approve arms sales to Israel.

www.cnn.com

In their letter, the lawmakers noted the rarity of administrations using emergency declarations to immediately approve arms sales without congressional approval. They also referenced the standards under US policies, such as the Leahy Law, to not provide military assistance to security forces credibly accused of gross human rights violations.

It's really a annoying at the least and a head scratcher considering Biden hasn't used executive powers that he could use to send more weapons and support to Ukraine.

 

[zztop]

This is weird to me. I guess he is okay with what idf is doing, yet takes exception to what civilians are doing...?

Biden sanctions Israeli settlers accused of attacking Palestinians and peace activists in West Bank

Joe Biden issued an executive order that targets Israeli settlers in the West Bank who have been accused of attacking Palestinians and Israeli peace activists in the occupied territory.

apnews.com

 

[Heathen]

This is weird to me. I guess he is okay with what idf is doing, yet takes exception to what civilians are doing...?

Biden sanctions Israeli settlers accused of attacking Palestinians and peace activists in West Bank

Joe Biden issued an executive order that targets Israeli settlers in the West Bank who have been accused of attacking Palestinians and Israeli peace activists in the occupied territory.

apnews.com

I saw that. It's hard to say that this isn't just an ugly, cringey joke at this point.

So now, after months of the IDF massacring civilians and destroying their homeland - he wants to 'take action' against 4 people not associated with the IDF? Hmm...

Seems like doing the absolute minimum amount to say anything at all was done. I mean...tone deaf doesn't even begin to describe it. It's just insulting at this point.

There's also this gem:

Joe Biden says he 'holds Iran responsible' for attack on US military base
US President Joe Biden has claimed he "holds Iran responsible" for the attack on a US military airbase in Jordan, which killed three American troops. Speaking to media outside the White House, Biden told them: "I do hold them responsible, in the sense that they're supplying the weapons to the people who did it."

 

[MT15]

This is weird to me. I guess he is okay with what idf is doing, yet takes exception to what civilians are doing...?

Biden sanctions Israeli settlers accused of attacking Palestinians and peace activists in West Bank

Joe Biden issued an executive order that targets Israeli settlers in the West Bank who have been accused of attacking Palestinians and Israeli peace activists in the occupied territory.

apnews.com

I don’t think he is okay with what the IDF is doing at all. But there are sovereignty issues, he cannot control the IDF. I think he will try to get Israel to vote Bibi out.

On the diplomatic front I read that the US and Saudi Arabia (and other Arab nations) are close to announcing a deal that will end the war and return the hostages. I think Biden has basically gone around Bibi, and once the war is over, he will pressure Israel to get rid of him.

 

[LA - L.A.]

I don’t think he is okay with what the IDF is doing at all. But there are sovereignty issues, he cannot control the IDF.

But he can control US weapons and financial support to Israel. In fact, he used executive action to keep weapons and support flowing to the IDF after Congress stopped further support.

I think he will try to get Israel to vote Bibi out.

He can't make Israel vote a certain way, but he can stop giving the IDF the weapons and support they are using to commit mass murder and mass destruction.

On the diplomatic front I read that the US and Saudi Arabia (and other Arab nations) are close to announcing a deal that will end the war and return the hostages. I think Biden has basically gone around Bibi, and once the war is over, he will pressure Israel to get rid of him.

I'll believe the IDF is no longer using US weapons and support to mass murder people when I actually see it happening.

 

[UriUT]

We should have a little perspective about what Biden wants to achieve and what he can actually do in regards to israel. Some in this thread mentioned Obama speaking up against Israel, and he tried. But even Obama can't do a thing because of aipac and Israel's strong lobby in the US. Obama slmentioned that one cannot speak up against Israel and not be labeled antisemitic or anti Israel. And in this country, many blend antizionism with antisemitic. For example, Obama tried to rein in Netanyahu and the west Bank settlement. A campaign to label him antisemitic immediately started.

Really, what country has a lobby with its name on it and with the reach of aipac? For that matter, the antidefamation league as well. Attacks against propalestinians groups and higher education were quick and decisive. They were labeled antisemitic. Freedom fighters cannot be used, even though israeli founders commited atrocities just as hamas did. Sure some in those groups did use such language. But if we're to apply that standard of labeling whole groups as antisemetic, the same can be said of pro Israelis. I've seen how some Israeli children were taught, caught on video BTW, to hate Palestinians and see them as unworthy; subhuman.

With that in mind, there is a huge gap on what policy is possible. And before Netanyahu and the evangelicalism s fervent support, moderate Israelis feared that meddling in us politics was detrimental to their security. No longer. Netanyahu defiantly spoke before congress against Obama. Before the un. At cpac.

The tail is wagging the dog.

 

[samiam5211]

We should have a little perspective about what Biden wants to achieve and what he can actually do in regards to israel. Some in this thread mentioned Obama speaking up against Israel, and he tried. But even Obama can't do a thing because of aipac and Israel's strong lobby in the US. Obama slmentioned that one cannot speak up against Israel and not be labeled antisemitic or anti Israel. And in this country, many blend antizionism with antisemitic. For example, Obama tried to rein in Netanyahu and the west Bank settlement. A campaign to label him antisemitic immediately started.

Really, what country has a lobby with its name on it and with the reach of aipac? For that matter, the antidefamation league as well. Attacks against propalestinians groups and higher education were quick and decisive. They were labeled antisemitic. Freedom fighters cannot be used, even though israeli founders commited atrocities just as hamas did. Sure some in those groups did use such language. But if we're to apply that standard of labeling whole groups as antisemetic, the same can be said of pro Israelis. I've seen how some Israeli children were taught, caught on video BTW, to hate Palestinians and see them as unworthy; subhuman.

With that in mind, there is a huge gap on what policy is possible. And before Netanyahu and the evangelicalism s fervent support, moderate Israelis feared that meddling in us politics was detrimental to their security. No longer. Netanyahu defiantly spoke before congress against Obama. Before the un. At cpac.

The tail is wagging the dog.

I saw something the other day where someone was wondering why AIPAC lobbyists don't have to register as foreign agents, but other people who lobby for foreign governments do.

 

[UriUT]

I saw something the other day where someone was wondering why AIPAC lobbyists don't have to register as foreign agents, but other people who lobby for foreign governments do.

Yeah I don t know the answer to that either. Israel's position is very unique. We built a weapons cache in Israel that they nominally have free access. I mean they have to ask the US, but seriously? Do they need to do that?

 

[MT15]

I think Biden will be willing to rethink the US-Israeli relationship, especially if they don’t step away from their own radical religious right wing. But as Uri says, this relationship wasn’t built in a day and it will take some time to rework it. The whole region is a mess, tbh, with various Muslim factions that don’t get along with each other either.

Meanwhile, if Trump is put back in office, the radical right in Israel will be emboldened and supported by the radical religious right in the US, and Trump will be fine with it. He’s likely to go along with just about anything they want.

This isn’t a time to make gestures that will help Trump, at all.

 

[zztop]

Senate Democrats push to require that Biden consult Congress on weapons sales to Israel

Senate Democrats are pushing to prevent the Biden administration from bypassing Congress when approving weapons sales to Israel as the Jewish state's war against Hamas comes under increasing scrutiny.

apnews.com