Israel vs Hamas (3 Viewers)

[GrandAdmiral]

Looks like the fight is on with Israeli soldiers and civilians amongst the dead already. Question becomes, how long before we get dragged into this?

Netanyahu says Israel is ‘at war’ after Hamas launches surprise attack, takes hostages | CNN

Israel’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu declared that the country was “at war” on Saturday, after Palestinian militants in Gaza fired a deadly barrage of rockets and sent gunmen into Israeli territory in a major escalation of the long running conflict between the two sides.

www.cnn.com

 

[LA - L.A.]

Bibi‘s government is filled with right wing religious zealots. Women have relatively little value to them, same as in this country with Christian right wing zealots.

I hear you and I suspect misogyny played a factor for the IDF when they assigned only female soldiers to those surveillance stations. I also suspect those stations were poorly fortified and armed.

The anger Israelis have towards Netanyahu and his ruling coalition keeps growing louder and stronger. I wouldn't be surprised if Netanyahu, his ruling coalition and the IDF end up seizing complete authoriatrian control over Israel.

 

[MT15]

This is disturbing. U.N. relief workers took part in the Hamas massacre.

 

[Heathen]

This is disturbing. U.N. relief workers took part in the Hamas massacre.

Unless I’m getting my articles mixed up, the response to this was cutting off funding to UNRWA, furthering the already criminal instance of collective punishment of Gazans by the IDF and allies at large.

2 million people rely on that aid. There are babies being born without incubators, surgeries and amputations being performed without anesthesia on kids, corpses rotting in the street and amongst rubble, starving animals eating them to survive (I’ve seen videos). Israel has deliberately been cutting off aid to these people for months, and point blank killing people waving white flags in the streets.

To say it is ghastly is an understatement. I know and sympathize greatly with all other instances…but personally have never seen this level of a lack of humanity in the time I’ve been alive from this many angles

 

[samiam5211]

This is disturbing. U.N. relief workers took part in the Hamas massacre.

I mean, i think when you hire local people to work, you are going to get people representative of the local population.

It isn't surprising that a few people who worked for the UN program were Hamas sympathizers.

I think it mischaracterizes it to say that UN relief workers took part in the massacre. It's not about the UN.

 

[MT15]

It says that at least one kidnapped a woman, another actually took part in the killing, 6 provided arms to Hamas.

They seem to have evidence of involvement. I also don’t think it’s acceptable for UN relief workers to sympathize with terrorists who advocate for genocide.

 

[samiam5211]

It says that at least one kidnapped a woman, another actually took part in the killing, 6 provided arms to Hamas.

They seem to have evidence of involvement. I also don’t think it’s acceptable for UN relief workers to sympathize with terrorists who advocate for genocide.

I'm not suggesting that it is acceptable.

I haven't seen anything that should come close to justifying pulling funding from the organization.

The way it is being painted is that the UN was supporting the Hamas attacks. That is a dishonest take, intended to get people to stop supporting the UN.

What percentage of the employees of this organization are we talking about? How would you expect the UN organization to know?

I would expect people who work delivering aid in people in Gaza to have a negative opinion of Israel BTW. Not saying that it is acceptable for anyone to have supported or participated in the attacks, but i'm sure that they will have no trouble finding negative opinions of Israel from the people helping deliver aid in Gaza. That shouldn't be surprising.

 

[Heathen]

It says that at least one kidnapped a woman, another actually took part in the killing, 6 provided arms to Hamas.

They seem to have evidence of involvement. I also don’t think it’s acceptable for UN relief workers to sympathize with terrorists who advocate for genocide.

I don't think any reasonable person does.

Just like any reasonable person wouldn't think it's acceptable to pull funding from an organization providing aid to 2 million people, already starving and homeless due to the IDF 's actions, due to the (alleged) actions of a few

Again...It's collective punishment, and - it's criminal.

But once more, we're a country that is cutting off all aid to a dying, destroyed territory due to alleged claims of relief agency worker involvement in the death of 1,200 people with responses like emphasizing "the necessity of a thorough and swift investigation of this matter," and turn our heads and stay silent on quite literally hundreds of instances of torture, murder and destruction of the homes of 10's of thousands of Palestinian people.

So forgive me if I'm a bit skeptical of Israel or the US' claims at this point.

 

[MT15]

I'm not suggesting that it is acceptable.

I haven't seen anything that should come close to justifying pulling funding from the organization.

The way it is being painted is that the UN was supporting the Hamas attacks. That is a dishonest take, intended to get people to stop supporting the UN.

What percentage of the employees of this organization are we talking about? How would you expect the UN organization to know?

I would expect people who work delivering aid in people in Gaza to have a negative opinion of Israel BTW. Not saying that it is acceptable for anyone to have supported or participated in the attacks, but i'm sure that they will have no trouble finding negative opinions of Israel from the people helping deliver aid in Gaza. That shouldn't be surprising.

I agree mostly. But it’s a huge leap from having negative opinions about Israel (which you are right shouldn’t be surprising) and taking part in the murder and kidnapping of Israeli citizens. The estimated number I saw was 10% of the U.N. workers in Gaza are involved with terrorist groups. I don’t know how they arrived at that figure.

 

[samiam5211]

I agree mostly. But it’s a huge leap from having negative opinions about Israel (which you are right shouldn’t be surprising) and taking part in the murder and kidnapping of Israeli citizens. The estimated number I saw was 10% of the U.N. workers in Gaza are involved with terrorist groups. I don’t know how they arrived at that figure.

yea, i don't know how they got to that number.

I read that there are as many as 10,000 people working for that group in Gaza.

That would mean that 1,000 terrorists were working for them.

 

[MT15]

yea, i don't know how they got to that number.

I read that there are as many as 10,000 people working for that group in Gaza.

That would mean that 1,000 terrorists were working for them.

Yeah, I’m not sure either. I did read that it seems to have been a poorly kept secret that the U.N. schools were teaching hate for Israelis, and support for genocide. I’m at a loss how you can fix this situation at this point. When the people who are supposed to be helping aid the terrorists, it just seems like a lost cause.

Bibi’s government won’t stop the hateful actions from some Israelis either. And nobody will probably hold those UN workers who took part accountable. Everyone suffers from the hate.

 

[LA - L.A.]

I agree mostly. But it’s a huge leap from having negative opinions about Israel (which you are right shouldn’t be surprising) and taking part in the murder and kidnapping of Israeli citizens. The estimated number I saw was 10% of the U.N. workers in Gaza are involved with terrorist groups. I don’t know how they arrived at that figure.

Two details that are really important and being left out:

1. There is zero evidence that any staff member of any UN organization knew anything about this until the IDF went public with their claims. The accused UN workers were locally hired people to assist UN staff in Gaza in carrying out their mission.
2. The UN immediately terminated every person that the IDF named and they did that just based on the claims made by the IDF. The UN is going to investigate the matter for themselves, but they terminated all the people named by the IDF before they even started to prepare to start an investigation.

There is no justification for what has been alleged that those workers did.

There is also no justification for cutting off all aid to everyone in Gaza who desperately needs it, just because of the horribly unjustified past actions of some (10% at the most according to the less than fully credible IDF) of the individuals the UN hired locally to help them in their aid mission.

Just like you don't completely defund the police because some police officers engage in criminal activity, you don't completely defund all aid to millions of people who desperately need it.

The world apparently forgot what happens when you appease ruthless authoritarians that you know are inflicting mass suffering and murder on vulnerable people.

Netanyahou and his ruling coalition are mass torturing and mass murdering thugs and the world needs to stop appeasing their mass torturing and mass murdering, just like the world is not appeasing and should not appease Hamas's mass torturing and mass murdering.

 

[MT15]

Two details that are really important and being left out:

1. There is zero evidence that any staff member of any UN organization knew anything about this until the IDF went public with their claims. The accused UN workers were locally hired people to assist UN staff in Gaza in carrying out their mission.
2. The UN immediately terminated every person that the IDF named and they did that just based on the claims made by the IDF. The UN is going to investigate the matter for themselves, but they terminated all the people named by the IDF before they even started to prepare to start an investigation.

There is no justification for what has been alleged that those workers did.

There is also no justification for cutting off all aid to everyone in Gaza who desperately needs it, just because of the horribly unjustified past actions of some (10% at the most according to the less than fully credible IDF) of the individuals the UN hired locally to help them in their aid mission.

Just like you don't completely defund the police because some police officers engage in criminal activity, you don't completely defund all aid to millions of people who desperately need it.

The world apparently forgot what happens when you appease ruthless authoritarians that you know are inflicting mass suffering and murder on vulnerable people.

Netanyahou and his ruling coalition are mass torturing and mass murdering thugs and the world needs to stop appeasing their mass torturing and mass murdering, just like the world is not appeasing and should not appease Hamas's mass torturing and mass murdering.

Who said any of those things?

 

[LA - L.A.]

Who said any of those things?

I was just sharing my thoughts. I wasn't refuting anything anyone said or didn't say. I quoted your post, because it mentioned the 10% figure.

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

Now we have to walk a tightrope responding to this attack:

US identifies three soldiers killed in attack in Jordan | CNN Politics

The three US soldiers killed in the drone attack on a US military outpost in Jordan were identified Monday as Sgt. William Rivers, 46 of Carrollton, Georgia, Specialist Kennedy Sanders, 24 of Waycross, Georgia, and Specialist Breonna Moffett, 23, of Savannah, Georgia, according to the Defense...

www.cnn.com

Respond strongly and we risk war with Iran. Respond weakly and they ignore you and keep attacking our bases.

 

[GrandAdmiral]

Forgive me (or not) if I call BS to pretty much anything coming from the IDF. They might as well have Baghdad Bob as their spokeperson.

There are rogue characters in every workplace/agency/whatever on the face of this planet...

I just found an employee clocking in from home instead of the site she's assigned to.

Russia has rogue soldiers either alienating their troops or conducting downright sabotage.

Ukraine has fired and arrested several individuals, including high-ranking officers for sympathizing with the enemy.

It happens everywhere, so all of this outrage is just giving cause for Israel and the IDF to continue to kill off innocent Gazans in the name of destroying Hamas. I don't even know if that is their mission anymore if you listen to Netanyahu close enough.

And like clockwork, the US falls for it hook, line, and sinker.

Yet stories like this continue to come out...

‘We are dying slowly.’ Children go to bed hungry and parents scavenge for food as famine looms in Gaza | CNN

Hanadi Gamal Saed El Jamara, 38, says sleep is all that can distract her children from the aching hunger gnawing at their bellies.

www.cnn.com

with not a word from folks, including some here on this board.

 

[samiam5211]

No one can say that Israel isn't committing war crimes anymore.

People can say that they do not care about the Geneva Conventions or that they are silly, but there isn't any denying that Israel is violating the Geneva conventions.

The ICC should issue a warrant for the soldiers involved and everyone involved in planning the operation.

 

[MT15]

That’s fine, but where are the calls for warrants for those who killed and kidnapped on October 7? I have even seen people on this very board excusing what they did.

I don’t like what the IDF is doing, but we seem to be overlooking what Hamas did, and not only Hamas, but a bunch of civilians from Gaza who also participated when it was evident that the Israelis were defenseless.

I just don’t want a double standard. There are no good guys here. Both sides have killed innocents, full stop.

 

[samiam5211]

That’s fine, but where are the calls for warrants for those who killed and kidnapped on October 7? I have even seen people on this very board excusing what they did.

I don’t like what the IDF is doing, but we seem to be overlooking what Hamas did, and not only Hamas, but a bunch of civilians from Gaza who also participated when it was evident that the Israelis were defenseless.

I just don’t want a double standard. There are no good guys here. Both sides have killed innocents, full stop.

Correct. There are no good guys here.

I promise you haven't seen me say anything positive about Hamas.

Our government is providing resources to one side though, so we should expect them to follow international law.