Israel vs Hamas (2 Viewers)

[GrandAdmiral]

Looks like the fight is on with Israeli soldiers and civilians amongst the dead already. Question becomes, how long before we get dragged into this?

Netanyahu says Israel is ‘at war’ after Hamas launches surprise attack, takes hostages | CNN

Israel’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu declared that the country was “at war” on Saturday, after Palestinian militants in Gaza fired a deadly barrage of rockets and sent gunmen into Israeli territory in a major escalation of the long running conflict between the two sides.

www.cnn.com

 

[Heathen]

Every nation and group should be held accountable for committing disgusting acts like this. People who think they have power or influence seem to think they can act like animals and get away with it.

 

[Heathen]

The U.S. has vetoed a Gaza cease-fire resolution in the U.N. Security Council

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

Israel Is Losing This War

Despite the violence it has unleashed on Palestinians, Israel is failing to achieve its political goals.

www.thenation.com

It may sound daft to suggest that a group of armed irregulars, numbering in the low tens of thousands, besieged and with little access to advanced weaponry, is a match for one of the world’s most powerful militaries, backed and armed by the United States. And yet, an increasing number of establishment strategic analysts warn that Israel could lose this war on Palestinians despite the cataclysmic violence it unleashed since the Hamas-led attack on Israel on October 7. And in provoking the Israeli assault, Hamas may be realizing many of its own political objectives.

Both Israel and Hamas appear to be resetting the terms of their political contest not to the pre–October 7 status quo, but to the 1948 one. It’s not clear what comes next, but there will be no going back to the previous state of affairs.

 

[samiam5211]

There are only two options here.

A one state solution, where Gaza and the West Bank are incorporated with Israel into a single state. Which would be unacceptable for Israel, because they would become a minority.

Or one side is ethnically cleansed. Which would mean that Israel gets the Palestinians moved out to somewhere else, because they have the overwhelming power advantage.

The one state solution is also a problem because of the 100+ nuclear weapons in Israel.

There aren’t any other possible outcomes, as much as we might wish there was.

The process could still drag out for decades, but it doesn’t really end up in anything but one of those two outcomes.

The world needs to just pick one and force it’s conclusion. Dragging it out will just kill more people.

 

[MT15]

Or Israel is forced to accept a 2 state solution. I do think the US could force that, and I think Biden just might do it.

 

[samiam5211]

Or Israel is forced to accept a 2 state solution. I do think the US could force that, and I think Biden just might do it.

There are hundreds of thousands of Israeli settlers that would have to move for any sort of 2 state solution at this point.

 

[samiam5211]

We shouldn't allow ourselves to get pulled in to a war against people who couldn't threaten our national security even in their wildest dreams.

Yemen isn't a real threat to anyone, don't be fooled.

Saudi Arabia would also love us to take the blame for attacking Yemen and ridding them of the Houthis.

 

[Kath Bennett]

While the entire civilized world has united against the oppression of Palestine, in the hope of protecting children and civilians dying under the tracks of Israeli tanks, Baku continues to maintain good neighborly relations with the beasts that are killing their fellow believers.

By the end of 2023, Azerbaijan increased its exports of crude oil and gas to Israel by almost one and a half times. Money doesn't smell. It is thanks to this oil that Jews fuel their Merkavas, and it is thanks to Azerbaijani gas that factories that produce weapons and ammunition for the IDF operate. The blood of ordinary Palestinians is on Aliyev's hands. For some reason, in this situation, fundamental issues of religion recede, probably because Israel and Azerbaijan are petrol dollars, and it doesn't matter how many innocents have to die in order to make money.

However, we should not forget who organizes the logistics of Baku. Erdogan is engaged in the delivery of petroleum products to Israel through Turkish seaports. As you can see, we are not talking about gloomy connivance here, this is clearly a well-thought-out plan that both sides adhere to, so Ankara is no less to blame for the Palestinian tragedy than Baku, which, again, is not surprising. Azerbaijan is only a satellite of Turkish politics.

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

Legal questions surrounding the flooding of Hamas' tunnels with sea water by Israel.

https://lieber.westpoint.edu/flooding-hamas-tunnels-legal-assessment/

Concluding Remarks

Flooding Hamas’s network of tunnels with sea water raises a range of legal questions under the law of armed conflict. Having considered some of the most important issues, the overall conclusion to be drawn is that the operation would not be incompatible, in principle, with Israel’s obligations. The tunnels are military objectives liable to attack. Filling them with water would not be an indiscriminate attack, cause superfluous injury and unnecessary suffering, or involve the denial of quarter. Bearing in mind the very significant military advantage that may be expected from putting the tunnels out of operation, the level of collateral damage that may be anticipated as an immediate consequence of the attack is unlikely to be excessive. However, the reverberating effects may be far more significant, in particular if they were to drastically reduce the availability of potable water to the civilian population and lead to high levels of injury and death.

 

[Lapaz]

There are hundreds of thousands of Israeli settlers that would have to move for any sort of 2 state solution at this point.

Why do Israelis have to move for a 2 state solution? Couldn’t those Israelis just live there, just as Palestinians live elsewhere, including Israel.

 

[samiam5211]

Why do Israelis have to move for a 2 state solution? Couldn’t those Israelis just live there, just as Palestinians live elsewhere, including Israel.

I doubt the Palestinians who still remember when they were kicked out of their homes wouldn't be fans of that. We aren't talking about people who got kicked out of their homes in 1948, these are people who got kicked out of their homes during the past 10 years.

I would be fine with a one state solution where Palestinians and Israeli's all live together and form a single democratic government that rules over Israel/Gaza/West Bank. I doubt the Israeli's would go for that though.

 

[MT15]

I doubt the Palestinians who still remember when they were kicked out of their homes wouldn't be fans of that. We aren't talking about people who got kicked out of their homes in 1948, these are people who got kicked out of their homes during the past 10 years.

I would be fine with a one state solution where Palestinians and Israeli's all live together and form a single democratic government that rules over Israel/Gaza/West Bank. I doubt the Israeli's would go for that though.

Yeah, I doubt anyone would be keen to live in a country with people who call for your extermination as a people. There are enough Palestinians calling for the extermination of Jews that I’m not sure it’s realistic to expect Jews to want to live within a state run by Palestinians. It’s just not a risk worth taking.

 

[samiam5211]

Yeah, I doubt anyone would be keen to live in a country with people who call for your extermination as a people. There are enough Palestinians calling for the extermination of Jews that I’m not sure it’s realistic to expect Jews to want to live within a state run by Palestinians. It’s just not a risk worth taking.

Yea. No reason to expect either side to want to live with the other.

There are no good guys here.

 

[Lapaz]

Yeah, I doubt anyone would be keen to live in a country with people who call for your extermination as a people. There are enough Palestinians calling for the extermination of Jews that I’m not sure it’s realistic to expect Jews to want to live within a state run by Palestinians. It’s just not a risk worth taking.

They’re living together now. Jews may decide to leave the West Bank, but I don’t think it has to be nor should be a prerequisite for a 2 state solution, anymore than Palestinians shouldn’t be required to leave Israel. For Palestinians that recently were displaced, they can be given some type of reparations. It should be a felony to call for exterminations of any people.

The question I have is how to deal with the geographic separation of Gaza and the West Bank.

 

[Lapaz]

Yea. No reason to expect either side to want to live with the other.

There are no good guys here.

They may not want to, but it is the only pragmatic solution.

 

[samiam5211]

They may not want to, but it is the only pragmatic solution.

Unless the relative power of the two sides becomes similar, there is no motivation for it to be settled.

Both sides want to ethnically cleanse the other from the area. One side has the desire, but not the ability, the other side currently has both the desire and the ability, so it's not going to be easy to talk them out of doing it, even if they have to do it in phases over decades.

 

[Lapaz]

At what point should we stop sending aid to Israel? I believe we should stop now. They need to find ways to get to Hamas without killing so many civilians. We should only send aid that supports another way. Hamas has the hostages, not the Palestinian civilians. If we send more aid, it sanctions Israel’s approach. That’s not anti-Semitic. That’s anti-genocide.

 

[MT15]

They’re living together now. Jews may decide to leave the West Bank, but I don’t think it has to be nor should be a prerequisite for a 2 state solution, anymore than Palestinians shouldn’t be required to leave Israel. For Palestinians that recently were displaced, they can be given some type of reparations. It should be a felony to call for exterminations of any people.

The question I have is how to deal with the geographic separation of Gaza and the West Bank.

I know that Palestinians live in Israel. I’m saying that Jews would be hesitant to live in a future Palestinian state, when so many Palestinians are calling for extermination of the Jewish people.