Israel vs Hamas (3 Viewers)

[GrandAdmiral]

Looks like the fight is on with Israeli soldiers and civilians amongst the dead already. Question becomes, how long before we get dragged into this?

Netanyahu says Israel is ‘at war’ after Hamas launches surprise attack, takes hostages | CNN

Israel’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu declared that the country was “at war” on Saturday, after Palestinian militants in Gaza fired a deadly barrage of rockets and sent gunmen into Israeli territory in a major escalation of the long running conflict between the two sides.

www.cnn.com

 

[Heathen]

 

[GrandAdmiral]

I hope Netanyahu rots in hell for this. Matter of fact, he and Sinwar should be attached to one another for eternity.

Netanyahu derailed a potential Gaza hostage deal in July, Israeli newspaper reports | CNN

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu in July effectively spiked a draft hostage and ceasefire deal by introducing a raft of new, 11th-hour demands, according to a report by the Israeli newspaper Yedioth Ahronoth citing a document it obtained.

www.cnn.com

 

[Heathen]

American woman killed in the West Bank

abcnews.go.com

 

[efil4]

Israel has carried out one of the most, if not the most, unbelievable operations ever.

the prevailing thought is they infiltrated the supply chain of Hezbollah pagers, were able to implant small amt of explosives, and this morning, remote detonated that maimed 100s if not 1000s of Hezbollah operatives - from low level to high level commanders. Even one report the Iranian Ambassador to Lebanon is among those injured

This is insane how they pulled this off without getting discovered

 

[RobF]

Israel has carried out one of the most, if not the most, unbelievable operations ever.

the prevailing thought is they infiltrated the supply chain of Hezbollah pagers, were able to implant small amt of explosives, and this morning, remote detonated that maimed 100s if not 1000s of Hezbollah operatives - from low level to high level commanders. Even one report the Iranian Ambassador to Lebanon is among those injured

This is insane how they pulled this off without getting discovered

Just been reading about this, including early reports that a 10 year old girl was killed.

It seems like a lot of things; audacious, sure, unbelievable, yes, but also kind of dumb? OK, it'll disrupt communications while an alternative is switched to, and cause a panic about pagers, and injure a lot of people and kill a few, but it's necessarily indiscriminate; there's presumably no way of knowing who is actually using one of these pagers or who's standing next to one.

Even putting morality aside, from a practical point of view it feels like the potential backlash wouldn't be worth the impact. Guess we'll see.

 

[efil4]

Just been reading about this, including early reports that a 10 year old girl was killed.

It seems like a lot of things; audacious, sure, unbelievable, yes, but also kind of dumb? OK, it'll disrupt communications while an alternative is switched to, and cause a panic about pagers, and injure a lot of people and kill a few, but it's necessarily indiscriminate; there's presumably no way of knowing who is actually using one of these pagers or who's standing next to one.

Even putting morality aside, from a practical point of view it feels like the potential backlash wouldn't be worth the impact. Guess we'll see.

to play devils advocate here- I guess same could be said of Hezbollah launching Fateh rockets into Israel.

As opposed to targeting an area in hopes of striking a military target, but hitting residential targets ( including civilians ) , it seems as though Israel "targeted" Hezbollah fighters/operatives/command pretty specifically.

So i get what the thought about " who is actually using" - but i think Israel figured the specific targeting of pagers worn exclusively by Hezbollah was the proper way to go here.

 

[RobF]

to play devils advocate here- I guess same could be said of Hezbollah launching Fateh rockets into Israel.

As opposed to targeting an area in hopes of striking a military target, but hitting residential targets ( including civilians ) , it seems as though Israel "targeted" Hezbollah fighters/operatives/command pretty specifically.

So i get what the thought about " who is actually using" - but i think Israel figured the specific targeting of pagers worn exclusively by Hezbollah was the proper way to go here.

Naturally I think launching loosely (if at all) targeted rockets into civilian areas is indiscriminate and a bad thing.

I'm not trying to make a comparison though; that is, the one wouldn't justify the other, so I'm not sure how much merit there is in comparing them.

But in its own terms, this has some striking characteristics; it's novel, simultaneously a very broad attack (anywhere there's one of these pager), and personal (the person wearing the pager). Apparently, Lebanon's health minister is saying 'at least eight people were killed and 2,750 wounded'. That's a pretty big attack. What's it going to achieve?

 

[efil4]

Naturally I think launching loosely (if at all) targeted rockets into civilian areas is indiscriminate and a bad thing.

I'm not trying to make a comparison though; that is, the one wouldn't justify the other, so I'm not sure how much merit there is in comparing them.

But in its own terms, this has some striking characteristics; it's novel, simultaneously a very broad attack (anywhere there's one of these pager), and personal (the person wearing the pager). Apparently, Lebanon's health minister is saying 'at least eight people were killed and 2,750 wounded'. That's a pretty big attack. What's it going to achieve?

There really isnt much of a comparison to be made when you think honestly - unguided rockets are, well, unguided. Aim at a general area with 100s of them in hopes that several hit the target. Where the other 90 land is inconsequential to the goal ( outside of sowing more fear for the civilian population )

The justification, i would argue on Israels behalf, is that upending the ability of Hezbollah to effectively coordinate and communicate in real time, in a time of conflict, is wholly justified. If your enemy cannot effectively communicate what they want to do and how and the timing of it all, it completely disrupts their ability to be effective and decisive.


From a purely military perspective, disruption of the ability to communicate and coordinate? Previously ive read they moved away from cellular due to Israel signals intelligence able to infiltrate and capture communications. So they moved to pagers/couriers. Now pagers are off the line of communications ( quick communications ). Not much room left to coordinate large scale attacks or response in situations where time is of the essence. If they revert back to cellular communication, chances are they get intercepted again, and whatever plans they were making get thwarted.

Outside of the obvious achievement of disruption of communications, it also creates fear within Hezbollah - where did these pagers come from? Who is compromised? How did this happen? More time they will have to spend on THAT than actually attacking Israel with whatever rockets Iran has supplied that week.

Not to mention removal of 100s upon 100s of "fighters" from active combat. They simply wont be involved for some time in active operations for Hezbollah.

 

[RobF]

There really isnt much of a comparison to be made when you think honestly - unguided rockets are, well, unguided. Aim at a general area with 100s of them in hopes that several hit the target. Where the other 90 land is inconsequential to the goal ( outside of sowing more fear for the civilian population )

The justification, i would argue on Israels behalf, is that upending the ability of Hezbollah to effectively coordinate and communicate in real time, in a time of conflict, is wholly justified. If your enemy cannot effectively communicate what they want to do and how and the timing of it all, it completely disrupts their ability to be effective and decisive.


From a purely military perspective, disruption of the ability to communicate and coordinate? Previously ive read they moved away from cellular due to Israel signals intelligence able to infiltrate and capture communications. So they moved to pagers/couriers. Now pagers are off the line of communications ( quick communications ). Not much room left to coordinate large scale attacks or response in situations where time is of the essence. If they revert back to cellular communication, chances are they get intercepted again, and whatever plans they were making get thwarted.

Outside of the obvious achievement of disruption of communications, it also creates fear within Hezbollah - where did these pagers come from? Who is compromised? How did this happen? More time they will have to spend on THAT than actually attacking Israel with whatever rockets Iran has supplied that week.

Not to mention removal of 100s upon 100s of "fighters" from active combat. They simply wont be involved for some time in active operations for Hezbollah.

Almost 3,000 people hurt and some killed after Hezbollah pagers explode

Detonations across Lebanon reported as Shia militia says two of its fighters and a 10-year-old girl killed

www.theguardian.com

From that article:

Yossi Melman, a co-author of Spies Against Armageddon and other books on Israeli intelligence, said: “This absolutely has all the hallmarks of a Mossad operation. Somebody has planted minor explosives or malware from inside the pagers. I understand they were recently supplied as well.”​

​

Melman said he understood that “a lot of people in Hezbollah carried these pagers, not just top echelon commanders”. They were used by the Lebanese group because they feared their mobile phones were being monitored by Israeli intelligence to surveil their communications and to pinpoint missile attacks.​

​

The exercise showed, he said, that “Mossad is able to penetrate and infiltrate Hezbollah time and time again” but he questioned whether there was any strategic gain to the co-ordinated explosions. “It won’t change the situation on the ground, and I don’t see any advance in it.”​

That last bit is what I'm saying. Seems like it'd be short term disruption that I'm not sure is worth the potential backlash. But like I said, we'll see what comes out of it.

 

[coldseat]

This is some really terroristic shirt by Israel. Netanyahu and the right wing extremist in Israel's government are trying everything they can to expand this war into a wider middle east conflict with Iran, Lebanon, etc. And they're trying to force us to stay engaged with their defense. We need to stop this right now and take a new course with Israel. They aren't a trusted ally any longer and we need to recognize that. They're just another destabilizing force in the middle east.

 

[Heathen]

Israel has carried out one of the most, if not the most, unbelievable operations ever.

the prevailing thought is they infiltrated the supply chain of Hezbollah pagers, were able to implant small amt of explosives, and this morning, remote detonated that maimed 100s if not 1000s of Hezbollah operatives - from low level to high level commanders. Even one report the Iranian Ambassador to Lebanon is among those injured

This is insane how they pulled this off without getting discovered

Children and innocent civilians always are included in these “operations”, which are in every way terrorist attacks.

Remember that this is the same “most moral army” that dropped explosive devices disguised as children’s toys onto villages from military helicopters and cheer as children were maimed and killed.

This is NOTHING new for them. It’s par for the course.

 

[DJ1BigTymer]

This is some really terroristic shirt by Israel. Netanyahu and the right wing extremist in Israel's government are trying everything they can to expand this war into a wider middle east conflict with Iran, Lebanon, etc. And they're trying to force us to stay engaged with their defense. We need to stop this right now and take a new course with Israel. They aren't a trusted ally any longer and we need to recognize that. They're just another destabilizing force in the middle east.

The real question that comes to mind; if they are capable of identifying and targeting these individuals, was the destruction of Gaza necessary? Also, could they have used methods that would have limited collateral damage? I know those that run the Israeli government aren't interested in proportional force, but if they want to continue on US support, they BETTER LEARN!

 

[superchuck500]

Israel now launching strikes in Lebanon.

This is no longer a special ops deal - it’s a clear expansion of the war.

Lebanon exploding pagers latest: Lebanon's army destroys suspicious devices as country on edge after explosions

In attacks widely blamed on Israel, hundreds of walkie-talkies exploded in Lebanon on Wednesday, a day after thousands of pagers did the same.

www.bbc.com

 

[DaveXA]

Israel now launching strikes in Lebanon.

This is no longer a special ops deal - it’s a clear expansion of the war.

Lebanon exploding pagers latest: Lebanon's army destroys suspicious devices as country on edge after explosions

In attacks widely blamed on Israel, hundreds of walkie-talkies exploded in Lebanon on Wednesday, a day after thousands of pagers did the same.

www.bbc.com

Yeah, the whole explosive devices thing was basically a precursor to a wider war. I guess I can't say I'm surprised at this point. Bibi has got to go.

 

[GrandAdmiral]

Israel now launching strikes in Lebanon.

This is no longer a special ops deal - it’s a clear expansion of the war.

Lebanon exploding pagers latest: Lebanon's army destroys suspicious devices as country on edge after explosions

In attacks widely blamed on Israel, hundreds of walkie-talkies exploded in Lebanon on Wednesday, a day after thousands of pagers did the same.

www.bbc.com

Netanyahu has zero intentions on bringing back the hostages. Zero.

 

[SystemShock]

Netanyahu has zero intentions on bringing back the hostages. Zero.

... or he knows that there's a 0% chance the hostages are coming back alive.

 

[Heathen]

Israel Deliberately Blocked Humanitarian Aid to Gaza, Two Government Bodies Concluded. Antony Blinken Rejected Them.

Blinken told Congress, “We do not currently assess that the Israeli government is prohibiting or otherwise restricting” aid, even though the U.S. Agency for International Development and others had determined that Israel had broken the law.

www.propublica.org