Israel vs Hamas (1 Viewer)

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    Well-known member
    Nov 20, 2019
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    Looks like the fight is on with Israeli soldiers and civilians amongst the dead already. Question becomes, how long before we get dragged into this?

    I think some of the responses to her are more contentious than seems warranted.
    She makes contentious responses as well. Like saying people in this thread rush to post every anti-Israeli thing they read including terrorist propaganda.

    I think the disagreement isn’t actually one of whether the things she’s expressed have happened...
    She's repeated some untrue claims.

    She claimed the bike chains used in Columbia were not bike chains, because she heard a law enforcement officer say that they weren't.

    That officer wasn't telling the truth. The bike chains, as thick and heavy as they are, are in fact bike chains. I have one of them. Students do in fact use this lock and chain for their bikes and it's exactly the same lock and chain that the police officer falsely said students don't use it for their bikes.

    That's just one of the false factual claims that she's restated here. I don't fault her for it, because we're supposed to be able to trust all police officers, but we know we can't trust all police officers just because they are a police officer.

    There has been vandalism.
    I haven't once denied that there has been vandalism, but MT15 hasn't just claimed there is vandalism. She's claimed there is a trend of an increasing rise in vandalism. That is false. There's no truth to it.

    The lack of a trend toward more vandalism is where the disagreement is, not whether or not there is any vandalism at all.

    There have been reports of harassment and violence.
    Again, MT15 claims there is a trend toward more harassment and violence, not just that some harassment and violence happens.

    I've been disagreeing with her about her claim there's a trend, because there isn't actually a trend. The sensational coverage of the protests and the deception from some in law enforcement give a false impression that there is a trend.

    All objectively verified objective facts show that the "trend" is false.

    I don’t know why we suddenly can’t acknowledge that type of undermining behavior now.
    The most effective undermining of the protests is coming from law enforcement, government officials, the Israeli lobby/propaganda machine and university administrations.

    Law enforcement sat back and watched the protestors get attacked without doing anything to stop or deescalate it.

    A police officer in New York flat out lied to the entire world making the false claim that a commonly used, especially in New York, bicycle lock and chain is not what it undeniably is.

    Yet, it's the people who speak out against Israeli abuses and atrocities who are the ones who are falling for terrorist propaganda?

    I want them to be safe and kept from harm. I don’t want people to join in with them who don’t share their goals and ideals and would attempt to frame them negatively.
    I want them to be safe too, which is why I don't falsely accuse the protesters of conducting "purity tests" when they do what they can to screen out trouble makers.

    I don’t want protesters to disrupt the normal activities of their peers who might not share their outrage or objectives...
    Protests have inherent and unavoidable degree of disruption.

    ...and who simply want to get to class, use facilities, take exams, and live out their daily routine;
    Fortunately, the verified objective facts show that none of that is happening to a significant degree. There's a lot of false reporting and false framing that gives the false impression that is happening to a much greater degree than it actually is.

    Where I live, we’ve had numerous city officers indicted for excessive force against protesters in the past, and the state police agency is regarded by many to be the governor’s goon squad.
    This is in every state, which is why no one should take anything law enforcement says as the whole truth. Nothing they say should be accepted at face value and without independent verification.

    That does NOT mean I think protesters are in the wrong or shouldn’t exercise their right to protest. It means I care about their well-being.
    I care about them too. I also trust them to know better than I do how to take care of their well being. They need our support, not our second guessing and snap judging them.
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    Shocking images coming out of Rafah today as Israel has continued bombing residential areas and near refugee camps of starving people.

    Many images of dead children. One image in particular of two dead little boys, maybe 9 or 10 years old — bodies and parts of their skulls crushed, still trying to hold on to each other from the edge of a collapsed building as civilians try to pull the bodies out…

    This is horrific. Israel must be stopped.
    Too few of this:

    Too much wanton actions like this:

    Dashing hopes like this:

    Because this deal:

    cant satisfy this man's determination to destroy what he propped up for years.

    Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has said his country must retain the right to continue the war and that a permanent cease-fire and Israeli troop withdrawal would leave Hamas, which led the deadly Oct. 7 attack on Israel, intact.

    Resulting in lives not associated with Hamas to die needlessly. Because of a far right party's fanatic need to deny a population dignity while grabbing more land.

    ARABLOUEI: And in 2019, one of the people Netanyahu had to cut a deal with was a right-wing politician who believed in using violence to achieve his goals, a man named Itamar Ben-Gvir, Israel's current minister of security.

    ROTH-ROWLAND: Ben-Gvir gets into the Israeli government, and he basically gets to play kingmaker because of the number of seats that he's pulled. And Netanyahu - you know, he is crucial to Netanyahu's coalition at this point.

    ARABLOUEI: Natasha Roth-Rowland says Ben-Gvir went from a pariah to a popular figure in Israel, especially with young people.

    ROTH-ROWLAND: He voices what they see as things that they may not be allowed to say themselves. You know, he kind of - he voices the id of the nation in a way, in much the same way that Trump did. And...
    Biden hasn't directly said or implied that the protests are antisemitic in nature, but he also hasn't clearly stated they aren't. He speaks about antisemitism and the isolated incidents of Jewish students being harassed during protests, but he never makes a direct accusation. There is an element of accusation by association that comes from him speaking about both in the same breath. There's a lot of ambiguity in what he says and the actions his administration has taken.

    I share these same concerns and general sentiments regarding Biden's rhetoric that these two women have.

    However, leaders of two of the largest US Jewish groups that have been critical of Israel’s actions in its war with Hamas said Biden had missed the mark in his description of college protests.
    Stefanie Fox, executive director of Jewish Voice for Peace, said Biden’s characterization of campus protests was “entirely inaccurate” and “a really intentional misrepresentation.” She said that “peaceful multiracial, multifaith student protesters are simply calling out the very clear complicity of their universities in the Israeli attack on Palestinians.”
    Eva Borgwardt, a national spokesperson for IfNotNow, said Biden’s speech “was a misclassification of what’s happening on college campuses.”

    “To respond to a few isolated incidents in what has been overwhelmingly nonviolent student protest with the use of police and state force that targets particularly Palestinian, black and brown students, Jewish students among them, is a completely irresponsible and dangerous approach to protest and does not at all advance any kind of Jewish safety,” Borgwardt said.

    There are way too many Jewish students and organizations that are part of the protests to honestly classify the protests as antisemitic. Here's on students thoughts on the protests at Yale.

    But when people see pro-Palestinian protesters arrested at the same time as President Joe Biden and others are warning about a surge of antisemitism on college campuses, they apply the same tired framework — supposedly antisemitic pro-Palestine activists pitted against Jewish pro-Israel activists — to Yale. As a fourth-year Yale student, I find this characterization to be deeply frustrating, as it could not be further from the truth. At every turn, I have encountered a community of activists and organizers that is eager to listen, ready to learn and committed to including Jewish voices and perspectives.
    For example, as part of the difficult work of building a pluralistic protest environment, the coalition has listened to Jewish voices in the collective decision-making on what language to use, ultimately agreeing to not lead chants such as, “There is only one solution: Intifada revolution,” that made some Jewish students feel unsafe. Although this chant has been heard on Yale’s campus, it was not approved or started by protest organizers as a result of this ongoing dialogue.
    Last semester, I lit Chanukah candles outside Yale President Peter Salovey’s house each night of the holiday, followed by communal singing and praying until the candles finished burning. We were demanding that Yale call for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza and commit to protecting campus free speech after Columbia University banned pro-Palestinian student groups. This semester, students have gathered weekly on Friday afternoons in Beinecke Plaza as Jewish classmates led even more singing and prayer in protest of the war in Gaza.
    Indeed, Yale Jews for Ceasefire exists because of — not in spite of — our Jewish values. On the issue of divestment, for example, the Talmud teaches us that we may not sell weapons to those we suspect of using them criminally. Therefore, we have a duty to disrupt the manufacture and sale of military weapons that kill others, including those killing Palestinians.
    More than 1 million people in Gaza are on the brink of starvation, according to a recent UN report, and aid workers are still reeling after seven World Central Kitchen workers were killed in an Israeli airstrike earlier this month.

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    A private US company running security?

    So first we supply the weapons to destroy a country and then we supply the infrastructure rebuild via no bid private contractor contracts.

    This is the Iraq War all over again.

    im gonna guess its Academi ( formerly known as Blackwater Group )
    Hopefully this will effect Israel's war plans in Rafa. Maybe save some innocent Palestinians from certain death.

    TEL AVIV — Israel is recalibrating the next steps of its war against Hamas following warnings by President Biden that the United States will cut off offensive weapons shipments if the Israeli military advances into Rafah, the southern Gazan city that is harboring more than 1 million Palestinians.

    Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has yet to respond to Biden’s unprecedented policy shift. But Yaakov Amidror, a former national security adviser to Netanyahu, said that “the surprise” of the warning has caught Israel off guard and will compel the war cabinet to reconsider whether and how it will enter Rafah — “if it will bear the consequence of going in without American support, or if it will stop the operation, which will allow Hamas to be unharmed in the area.”

    The public rupture, which included Biden’s assertion that civilians have been killed by the U.S.-made munitions supplied to Israel, comes after months of disagreement between the two countries over Israel’s conduct in the war, and as cease-fire negotiations between Israel and Hamas in Cairo teeter toward collapse .....

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