Israel vs Hamas (2 Viewers)

[GrandAdmiral]

Looks like the fight is on with Israeli soldiers and civilians amongst the dead already. Question becomes, how long before we get dragged into this?

Netanyahu says Israel is ‘at war’ after Hamas launches surprise attack, takes hostages | CNN

Israel’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu declared that the country was “at war” on Saturday, after Palestinian militants in Gaza fired a deadly barrage of rockets and sent gunmen into Israeli territory in a major escalation of the long running conflict between the two sides.

www.cnn.com

 

[Incumbent]

This is what I actually said:


Let me clarify what I said there. I said I was hoping that she didn't think the solution was to shutdown the protests to avoid more violence and vandalism. I was not in any way saying "you have to have a solution to share your observations and concerns."

I was only expressing that it seemed to me that she thinks the protests should be ended in order to avoid more violence or vandalism, and that I hope that isn't true. I asked her what her solution is, meaning what she sees as the solution, instead of just assuming my impression, of what I think she might think should happen, was correct.

I was not making any demands for her to provide a solution in order for her to have the right to share her thoughts and concerns. You misinterpreted what I said.


Yes, most of the time I do. I'm highly solution oriented about everything I think about. That's how I'm innately wired.

However, that is irrelevant, because I don't think anyone has to have a solution before sharing their observations or raising their concerns. I agree with you on the fact of that being a ridiculous prerequisite.

Just like she expressed her concerns about the possible outcomes of the protests, I was expressing my concerns about the possible outcomes of the perceptions and concerns that she expressed. Her perceptions and concerns are shared by a majority of Americans and I have concerns about the outcomes those peceptions and concerns could lead to.

I'm speaking up in the same way now, like I spoke up when the majority of Americans expressed nearly identical observations and concerns about the BLM protests. The exact same dynamic is playing out with the protests now as they did with BLM protests.

I hope my clarification helps you understand better.


It's not personal. I have no personal issues with her. Most of the time I agree with and support her observations and concerns, as she has with mine.

On this issue, I have disagreements and concerns about her perceptions, concerns and some of the things she says. All I've been doing is sharing my disagreements and concerns, and asking questions to get better understanding and clarification

I understand you're defending someone you think is being treated unfairly, so I don't take what you said personally.

What is petty and condescending or not is subjective in nature. It's in the eye of the beholder.

For instance, I think comments like this, about people who disagree with her or see things differently from her. are petty and condescending:


I didn't take her comment personally, because I know it's not grounded in reality. It comes from a mistaken perception of what people are saying and doing. No one in this thread has taken:


That is a ridiculous and unwarranted statement to make about anyone in this thread. There have been other ridiculous and unwarranted statements like that made by her in this thread in recent days and in the early days of this thread.

Just to let you know, I've also been a thoughtful contributor here and on the other board for years as well. Though, I don't see how that should matter.

Perception matters. You’re right.

I think some of the responses to her are more contentious than seems warranted. She’s provided sources, she’s answered questions. I think the disagreement isn’t actually one of whether the things she’s expressed have happened, but rather, whether it matters to some here that they have.

There has been vandalism. There have been reports of harassment and violence. If some here don’t think that matters - that’s okay. If others have concerns - that’s okay.

Following your reply, Uri cherry-picked some comments to make a point I don’t think is valid. One of those comments was made by me, expressing that not everybody who joins a protest is on the up-and-up. That’s true and we all should know it’s true. I recall reports from George Floyd related protests of people appearing to not share the larger group’s mission, who instead were engaging in acts of violence and vandalism. Some believe such participants were intentionally trying to encourage violence and destruction to portray protesters in a negative light in public opinion. I don’t know why we suddenly can’t acknowledge that type of undermining behavior now.

I’m not against the rights of people to protest. I think it’s one of the most important measures of a free society. I’ve participated in protests. I’ve witnessed peaceful actions and I’ve witnessed destructive actions. I’m not against the rights of Pro-Palestinian protesters. I want them to be safe and kept from harm. I don’t want people to join in with them who don’t share their goals and ideals and would attempt to frame them negatively.

I don’t want protesters to disrupt the normal activities of their peers who might not share their outrage or objectives, and who simply want to get to class, use facilities, take exams, and live out their daily routine; allowed to take full advantage of the opportunity they’ve worked hard to earn.

I live in a state where things could quickly turn ugly if our governor issues a strict dispersal order. Yes, it worries me that students could be harmed by overzealous police acting on behalf of constituent-pandering politicians. Where I live, we’ve had numerous city officers indicted for excessive force against protesters in the past, and the state police agency is regarded by many to be the governor’s goon squad. That does NOT mean I think protesters are in the wrong or shouldn’t exercise their right to protest. It means I care about their well-being.

Expressing concern or criticism does not equal opposition. I hope protests do remain largely peaceful and affect positive change.

 

[SaintForLife]

They are simply horrible people.

Soros is a Jew.

But why would Soros fund the anti Isreal protesters with him being Jewish?

I'm awaiting the routine antisemitism accusation for even bringing up his name here.

I'm honestly surprised that Politico identified the people funding those protests considering they are very prominent Democrats.

 

[samiam5211]

But why would Soros fund the anti Isreal protesters with him being Jewish?

I'm awaiting the routine antisemitism accusation for even bringing up his name here.

I'm honestly surprised that Politico identified the people funding those protests considering they are very prominent Democrats.

Why should Soros care anymore about Israel than any other country?

 

[Incumbent]

Tweeted by Abbott earlier today. An example of what shapes some of my concern.

 

[UriUT]

Perception matters. You’re right.

I think some of the responses to her are more contentious than seems warranted. She’s provided sources, she’s answered questions. I think the disagreement isn’t actually one of whether the things she’s expressed have happened, but rather, whether it matters to some here that they have.

There has been vandalism. There have been reports of harassment and violence. If some here don’t think that matters - that’s okay. If others have concerns - that’s okay.

Following your reply, Uri cherry-picked some comments to make a point I don’t think is valid. One of those comments was made by me, expressing that not everybody who joins a protest is on the up-and-up. That’s true and we all should know it’s true. I recall reports from George Floyd related protests of people appearing to not share the larger group’s mission, who instead were engaging in acts of violence and vandalism. Some believe such participants were intentionally trying to encourage violence and destruction to portray protesters in a negative light in public opinion. I don’t know why we suddenly can’t acknowledge that type of undermining behavior now.

I’m not against the rights of people to protest. I think it’s one of the most important measures of a free society. I’ve participated in protests. I’ve witnessed peaceful actions and I’ve witnessed destructive actions. I’m not against the rights of Pro-Palestinian protesters. I want them to be safe and kept from harm. I don’t want people to join in with them who don’t share their goals and ideals and would attempt to frame them negatively.

I don’t want protesters to disrupt the normal activities of their peers who might not share their outrage or objectives, and who simply want to get to class, use facilities, take exams, and live out their daily routine; allowed to take full advantage of the opportunity they’ve worked hard to earn.

I live in a state where things could quickly turn ugly if our governor issues a strict dispersal order. Yes, it worries me that students could be harmed by overzealous police acting on behalf of constituent-pandering politicians. Where I live, we’ve had numerous city officers indicted for excessive force against protesters in the past, and the state police agency is regarded by many to be the governor’s goon squad. That does NOT mean I think protesters are in the wrong or shouldn’t exercise their right to protest. It means I care about their well-being.

Expressing concern or criticism does not equal opposition. I hope protests do remain largely peaceful and affect positive change.

As I've pointed out when you brought this point up, you don't have real valid evidence to assume that those who aren't affiliated were bad characters. That it shouldn't matter who protests. They have the right and you cannot assume their stance or intention. You cannot judge based on what you think is an eventuality. You've even pointed out the arrests of non-affiliated as proof of possible bad acts, but Samiam rightly pointed out that those not affiliated were easier to charge. I've also pointed out that Abbott, preemptively labeled the protest as antisemitic and violent not long after the protest even began to discredit the protest, as he's doing it again in your above post. And the arrest of the Columbia professor also brings into question the police's tactics, without even explaining how the "outside agitators" were indoctrinating the students.

So yeah, I too will bow out as talking about the protest as it is taking away from what's happening in Gaza anyway.

You can judge for yourself from the BLM discussion. There are eerily similar arguments.

Over 93% of BLM demonstrations are non-violent

So, rather than burying this subject in an already broad thread I felt this topic, and the study it is based on, deserved its own thread. A debate about whether the protests have been mostly violent or not has been had multiple times in multiple threads so when I saw this analysis it piqued my...

madaboutpolitics.com

I have to say after reading that thread for reference, it's a tragedy that Oye/Aye isn't posting anymore. We've lost his wisdom, expertise, and experience. I can say, that I did have a better grasp of racial issues, particularly systemic racism after reading many of his posts.

 

[Incumbent]

As I've pointed out when you brought this point up, you don't have real valid evidence to assume that those who aren't affiliated were bad characters. That it shouldn't matter who protests. They have the right and you cannot assume their stance or intention. You cannot judge based on what you think is an eventuality. You've even pointed out the arrests of non-affiliated as proof of possible bad acts, but Samiam rightly pointed out that those not affiliated were easier to charge. I've also pointed out that Abbott, preemptively labeled the protest as antisemitic and violent not long after the protest even began to discredit the protest, as he's doing it again in your above post. And the arrest of the Columbia professor also brings into question the police's tactics, without even explaining how the "outside agitators" were indoctrinating the students.
posts.

I think you’re either misunderstanding where I’m coming from or reading things into what I’ve posted. It’s likely a pointless back and forth, though we probably aren’t as far apart as you seem convinced we are. From my perspective, you seem especially sensitive to any discussion of concerns about the current protests.

Nothing I say in support of protesting, or these particular protesters, seems to resonate with you.

 

[Incumbent]

And yes, Oye is great. He and I and have a strong mutual respect for one another.

 

[UriUT]

I think you’re either misunderstanding where I’m coming from or reading things into what I’ve posted. It’s likely a pointless back and forth, though we probably aren’t as far apart as you seem convinced we are. From my perspective, you seem especially sensitive to any discussion of concerns about this particular protest.

Nothing I say in support of protesting, or these particular protesters, seems to resonate with you.

I'm really not disputing you about people's right to protest. I'm not. I asked you before why you worry about bad actors when none have happened? Why the concern? There isn't any evidence that outside forces have infiltrated. Or have influenced the protestors (students). It's premature? And I bring up abbott to suggest that doing so associates the protest to violence. That is my argument.

 

[Incumbent]

I'm really not disputing you about people's right to protest. I'm not. I asked you before why you worry about bad actors when none have happened? Why the concern? There isn't any evidence that outside forces have infiltrated. Or have influenced the protestors (students). It's premature? And I bring up abbott to suggest that doing so associates the protest to violence. That is my argument.

We don’t disagree about Abbott. Did you see the tweet from him I posted?

I mainly spoke up in acknowledgment of some of the concerns because there was, IMO, an unnecessary pushback here to that. I generally don’t like the group-thinking and gate-keeping of topics.

As I have pointed out more than once, my comments were never relegated to what is happening at UT.

 

[Heathen]

Israel has briefed US on plan to evacuate Palestinian civilians ahead of potential Rafah operation

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has vowed to carry out a military operation in Rafah despite warnings from President Joe Biden and other western officials.

apnews.com

The Biden administration has said there could be consequences for Israel should it move forward with the operation without a credible plan to safeguard civilians.

“Absent such a plan, we can’t support a major military operation going into Rafah because the damage it would do is beyond what’s acceptable,” U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken said late Friday at the Sedona Forum, an event in Arizona hosted by the McCain Institute.

“Consequences for not safeguarding civilians”
“The damage it would do is beyond what is acceptable”

No further comment.

 

[UriUT]

Israel has briefed US on plan to evacuate Palestinian civilians ahead of potential Rafah operation

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has vowed to carry out a military operation in Rafah despite warnings from President Joe Biden and other western officials.

apnews.com

“Consequences for not safeguarding civilians”
“The damage it would do is beyond what is acceptable”

No further comment.

https://www.axios.com/2024/05/05/israel-us-ammunition-shipment-hold

The Biden administration last week put a hold on a shipment of U.S.-made ammunition to Israel, two Israeli officials told Axios.

 

[UriUT]

Israel has briefed US on plan to evacuate Palestinian civilians ahead of potential Rafah operation

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has vowed to carry out a military operation in Rafah despite warnings from President Joe Biden and other western officials.

apnews.com

“Consequences for not safeguarding civilians”
“The damage it would do is beyond what is acceptable”

No further comment.

 

[bird]

But why would Soros fund the anti Isreal protesters with him being Jewish?

I'm awaiting the routine antisemitism accusation for even bringing up his name here.

I'm honestly surprised that Politico identified the people funding those protests considering they are very prominent Democrats.

Do you understand the difference between protesting the actions of the Israeli government and being anti-Semitic? I have no doubt that there are anti-Semites among those protesting but I highly doubt that the vast majority are.

 

[efil4]

Apparently "isolationism" is the political "soup du jour"

 

[Heathen]

Translated (I used google lens so not 100% unless someone here knows Arabic; but probably close)

“The IDF will continue to fight against terrorist organizations that use you as a human shield”

 

[DaveXA]

Translated (I used google lens so not 100% unless someone here knows Arabic; but probably close)

“The IDF will continue to fight against terrorist organizations that use you as a human shield”

Translated, evacuate or we'll kill you where you stand.

 

[Incumbent]

CNN is reporting Hamas has agreed to a ceasefire proposal from Egypt and Qatar. Awaiting word from Israel.

Israel says Rafah operations will go ahead as Hamas deal remains ‘far’ from meeting its demands | CNN

Israel said the terms of a ceasefire deal Hamas accepted on Monday remained “far from” meeting its demands and warned its military operations in Rafah would continue, even as it sent negotiators to talk to mediators.

www.cnn.com

 

[DaveXA]

CNN is reporting Hamas has agreed to a ceasefire proposal from Egypt and Qatar. Awaiting word from Israel.

Israel says Rafah operations will go ahead as Hamas deal remains ‘far’ from meeting its demands | CNN

Israel said the terms of a ceasefire deal Hamas accepted on Monday remained “far from” meeting its demands and warned its military operations in Rafah would continue, even as it sent negotiators to talk to mediators.

www.cnn.com

Yeah, seeing that. I'm not optimistic tho. Every time one of these things is announced, something happens and then nothing. Too many false alarms already. I'll believe it when it happens.