Israel vs Hamas (1 Viewer)

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    GrandAdmiral

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    Looks like the fight is on with Israeli soldiers and civilians amongst the dead already. Question becomes, how long before we get dragged into this?

     
    And to turn a blind eye to what is happening doesn’t serve the cause and does harm to these kids.
    Broadly generalizing some acts, committed by some protesters at some of the protests some of the time, as representative of the entire protest movement doesn't serve the cause and harms the kids also.

    What is your proposed solution to your concerns about a trend toward an escalation in violence and vandalism? What do you think needs to be done about it?

    I'd bet my last dollar that your solution involves the protests ending, either voluntarily or by force of law.

    I truly hope to be wrong about that and that you have a solution that allows the peaceful students, which is the vast majority of them, to continue to exercise their right to protest peacefully.
     
    Broadly generalizing some acts, committed by some protesters at some of the protests some of the time, as representative of the entire protest movement doesn't serve the cause and harms the kids also.

    What is your proposed solution to your concerns about a trend toward an escalation in violence and vandalism? What do you think needs to be done about it?

    I'd bet my last dollar that your solution involves the protests ending, either voluntarily or by force of law.

    I truly hope to be wrong about that and that you have a solution that allows the peaceful students, which is the vast majority of them, to continue to exercise their right to protest peacefully.
    She already suggested they pull back and reevaluate the effectiveness of what they're doing and maybe tweak their messaging so that they're not distracted by stuff that hurts the cause. That could mean returning to protesting, but with a different strategy, holding open forums or meetings, inviting guest speakers etc.

    No one is suggesting they can't protest peacefully.
     
    I truly hope to be wrong about that and that you have a solution that allows the peaceful students, which is the vast majority of them, to continue to exercise their right to protest peacefully.

    Having solutions shouldn’t be a prerequisite for sharing observations or expressing concerns.

    This is getting ridiculous.
     
    Speaking of that, there are similar studies being done here as well:


    "While some notable violent clashes have recently taken place, such as on the University of California, Los Angeles (UCLA) campus, where demonstrators and counter-demonstrators fought at a student encampment overnight on 30 April, the overwhelming majority of student protests since October — 99% — have remained peaceful."
    That's consistent with everything I've read and seen that provides specific details, not just glittering generalities using subject and provocative language, or hearsay.

    Most of the legitimate media coverage is making the mistake they always make of reporting on the most sensational aspects in the most sensational way they can, so they can get more eyeballs and clicks to make more money. Their only agenda is maximizing profits.

    Most of the original sources of social media coverage are agenda driven hidden behind layers and layers of social media echoing that masks the fact the original source is pushing an agenda.

    There's no objective evidence to show that there's any truth to the notion that there's any actual trend of the protesters and protests getting more violent and causing more vandalism.

    The violence and vandalism is not progressively rising. It's still occasional and sporadic. That's an inherent part of every protest. The only way to stop all violence and vandalism is to stop all of the protests.
     
    Having solutions shouldn’t be a prerequisite for sharing observations or expressing concerns.

    This is getting ridiculous.
    It's not a prerequisite. I asked a question. It's ridiculous that anyone thinks asking a question of someone is ridiculous..
     
    It's not a prerequisite. I asked a question. It's ridiculous that anyone thinks asking a question of someone is ridiculous..

    You hope she has a solution. She doesn’t have to have solution. Do you only share observations or raise concerns about issues you have formulated solutions to?

    I think you’re being petty and condescending towards somebody who has been a longtime, thoughtful contributor here and the other board. It looks personal.
     
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    You hope she has a solution. She doesn’t have to solution.

    This is what I actually said:
    I truly hope to be wrong about that and that you have a solution that allows the peaceful students...

    Let me clarify what I said there. I said I was hoping that she didn't think the solution was to shutdown the protests to avoid more violence and vandalism. I was not in any way saying "you have to have a solution to share your observations and concerns."

    I was only expressing that it seemed to me that she thinks the protests should be ended in order to avoid more violence or vandalism, and that I hope that isn't true. I asked her what her solution is, meaning what she sees as the solution, instead of just assuming my impression, of what I think she might think should happen, was correct.

    I was not making any demands for her to provide a solution in order for her to have the right to share her thoughts and concerns. You misinterpreted what I said.

    Do you only share observations or raise concerns about issues you have formulated solutions to?
    Yes, most of the time I do. I'm highly solution oriented about everything I think about. That's how I'm innately wired.

    However, that is irrelevant, because I don't think anyone has to have a solution before sharing their observations or raising their concerns. I agree with you on the fact of that being a ridiculous prerequisite.

    Just like she expressed her concerns about the possible outcomes of the protests, I was expressing my concerns about the possible outcomes of the perceptions and concerns that she expressed. Her perceptions and concerns are shared by a majority of Americans and I have concerns about the outcomes those peceptions and concerns could lead to.

    I'm speaking up in the same way now, like I spoke up when the majority of Americans expressed nearly identical observations and concerns about the BLM protests. The exact same dynamic is playing out with the protests now as they did with BLM protests.

    I hope my clarification helps you understand better.

    I think you’re being petty and condescending towards somebody who has been a longtime, thoughtful contributor here and the other board. It looks personal.
    It's not personal. I have no personal issues with her. Most of the time I agree with and support her observations and concerns, as she has with mine.

    On this issue, I have disagreements and concerns about her perceptions, concerns and some of the things she says. All I've been doing is sharing my disagreements and concerns, and asking questions to get better understanding and clarification

    I understand you're defending someone you think is being treated unfairly, so I don't take what you said personally.

    What is petty and condescending or not is subjective in nature. It's in the eye of the beholder.

    For instance, I think comments like this, about people who disagree with her or see things differently from her. are petty and condescending:
    Just as we chastise MAGA for being in their bubble, and not seeing the whole picture, I see that happening here. When you take every anti-Israel news item at face value, no matter the source, and excuse every troubling bit of news from the Palestinian side of the conflict, well, it’s the same sort of bias.

    I didn't take her comment personally, because I know it's not grounded in reality. It comes from a mistaken perception of what people are saying and doing. No one in this thread has taken:
    ...every anti-Israel news item at face value, no matter the source, and excuse every troubling bit of news from the Palestinian side of the conflict.

    That is a ridiculous and unwarranted statement to make about anyone in this thread. There have been other ridiculous and unwarranted statements like that made by her in this thread in recent days and in the early days of this thread.

    Just to let you know, I've also been a thoughtful contributor here and on the other board for years as well. Though, I don't see how that should matter.
     
    Speaking of that, there are similar studies being done here as well:


    "While some notable violent clashes have recently taken place, such as on the University of California, Los Angeles (UCLA) campus, where demonstrators and counter-demonstrators fought at a student encampment overnight on 30 April, the overwhelming majority of student protests since October — 99% — have remained peaceful."
    Ah thank you for this. It goes to show, doing your own research is meaningless due to the lack of expertise and proper research resource. I was only able of find violence during police clashes and sporadic acts of vandalism. I assumed there wasn't much violence from the negative.

    However, in cases where student demonstrators have gathered unopposed, police have intervened against pro-Palestine demonstrations more than four times as often as pro-Israel demonstrations.

    So just like the case where a black kid and white kid are caught with marijuana. Interesting.
     
    I know you see what I am saying as an “attack” on these protests. It isn’t. I am clearly not communicating what I want to communicate here.

    I am going to bow out of this thread, with this final thought. There are certainly forces at work here that are not on the up and up. Just as we chastise MAGA for being in their bubble, and not seeing the whole picture, I see that happening here. When you take every anti-Israel news item at face value, no matter the source, and excuse every troubling bit of news from the Palestinian side of the conflict, well, it’s the same sort of bias.

    This issue isn’t BLM all over again. It’s just not. There aren’t any good sides to this conflict. If you think there’s a ‘good’ side and an ‘evil’ side, you aren’t seeing clearly. The entire thing makes me sad.

    Edit to add - this thread sums up my feelings pretty well. Only posting the first tweet.


    Discredit, delegitimize, irresponsibly accuse, false attribute...

    You all aren't just asking questions:

    I think the evidence of the outside agitator is more convincing when reports are surfacing that many of the people being arrested are unaffiliated with the universities where they are protesting.
    I am concerned that outside forces are using these protests for their own gains.
    We are seeing this happen in various locations. It’s been a gradual shift, but we are seeing it. It has been morphing away from divestment and a cease fire and more to support for Hamas. There has been a definite escalation in some areas. When the majority of people arrested are not students or affiliated with the university, it should at least raise questions about who are these people and what is their goal?
    It matters if the violence and chaos are intentional and not just consequential. Do you think that’s possible? You posted about the allegations of “outside agitators” and I responded to that with the evidence in the form or arrest statistics.
    I am concerned that outside agitators are using protests as an opportunity to encourage violence and chaos. Reports provide evidence that many of the people being arrested aren’t affiliated with universities where they are taking part in protests.
    But there is evidence of people from outside the university taking part, especially in locations where there have been arrests.
    There are other locations where violence has been avoided and protests have achieved some of their goals. I think it was Colgate where I read that students and admin have agreed to have serious discussions about divesting and the students dismantled their encampment. Our local protest was a bit sticky due to protestors erecting a wooden structure instead of just tents, but after talks the students agreed to take down the wooden structure. They are also not obstructing use of any university buildings.
    I don’t know how to make this more clear; there are reports that an overwhelming majority of protesters being arrested aren’t affiliated with the universities where they are protesting. This raises my concern about who they are and what their motives might be.
    Why do I worry about agitators provoking chaos and violence? Is that a sincere question?

    I’d prefer to not see an escalation of violence to the point of property destruction and bloodshed like we’ve seen in other protests.
    Not everybody who joins in a protest is on the up-and-up.
    I think that puts students and faculty in a good light and raises questions about some of those people not affiliated with the universities.
    I don’t believe this is accurate. I think the vandalism is more widespread than you are letting on here, especially very recently as the protests are evolving from encampments to occupying buildings.
    If you don’t pass their ideological test, you very well may be threatened to leave what is public property. This isn’t benign peaceful protest behavior in my opinion and in the opinion of those who are threatened.
    A truly peaceful protest doesn’t use purity tests and checkpoints with threatening language. It doesn’t occupy and vandalize buildings. It isn’t actual violence but it isn’t truly peaceful either.
    Yet, yall question my reading comprehension? Seems pretty self evident to me. You are associating the nearly non existent violence to outside agitators, who are "misleading the innocent, idealistic" student protestors. Have you all considered that you are implicitly saying that the protestors don't have their own agency? That you worry about the consequences they will face? Because they're slaves to nefarious outsiders? Maybe, just maybe, they and the people that joined the protests deeply care that our country's resources are used in genocidal acts, and by extension, they are too. And they risk much to voice it.

    I am going to bow out of this thread, with this final thought. There are certainly forces at work here that are not on the up and up. Just as we chastise MAGA for being in their bubble, and not seeing the whole picture, I see that happening here. When you take every anti-Israel news item at face value, no matter the source, and excuse every troubling bit of news from the Palestinian side of the conflict, well, it’s the same sort of bias.
    Are you really accusing me of this?


    You tell me in that post how pro-Palestinians the posters are. Read their comments. I see posts like those in my threads more often than I would see a pro Palestinians post. Much much more often. Is that my bubble?

    Or how about this. Yitzhak Rabin was involved in this:



    At the very least, he was directly responsible because of his order for the forced expulsion (ethnic cleansing) of Lydda. Yet, I can still say I respect him and his attempt at a peace process. Am I living in a bubble?

    But yeah, let's examine the antisemitism and outsider agitators and figure out the bubble.


    There, a Columbia professor was minding his business apart from the protest. He was arrested because he was recording the event.

    The next night, on Tuesday, the 64-year-old silver-haired scholar stepped outside his apartment building, located off campus across the street from Columbia. He wanted to record iPhone video of hundreds of police responding to historic student protests against Israel’s war in Gaza. Fifteen minutes later, the NYPD arrested him.
    The New York Police Department listed Pflugfelder among 112 arrests made at Columbia on Tuesday night, according to police records obtained by USA TODAY. But Pflugfelder was never on campus.
    “I certainly posed no danger to anybody,” he told USA TODAY. “I was literally standing in the street and not blocking anybody.”
    The arrests have raised claims of heavy-handed police tactics to suppress largely peaceful demonstrations against the Israel-Hamas war.
    Information released by police, including on the number of “outside agitators,” has not answered important questions about the rationale to send police to college campuses, including at Columbia, said Mulvey, a mathematician and professor emeritus at Fairfield University, in Connecticut. A central reason police responded to Columbia was people from outside who indoctrinated students with training and ideology, though officials have disclosed little evidence to date.
    Yes, "officials have disclosed little evidence to date"!

    Now let's talk about the student reporter's views.


    Have there been instances of antisemitism as part of these protests and counterprotests? What does that look like?​

    Some students have told the Emory Wheel that the protests are antisemitic, sometimes pointing to the use of chants such as “There is only one solution, intifada revolution,” and “Hey hey, ho ho, Zionists have got to go.”
    I’m a Jewish student, so I can speak to some of this from my own experience, though I don’t wear a yarmulke and I’m not religious. But I do know a lot of Jewish students on campus. I personally haven’t heard anything antisemitic, and I haven’t heard any mention of my own Jewish background. I do think some Jewish students in some groups have expressed concerns that they feel the people who are against Israel are against Jews as a whole, or that they don’t feel safe on campus. I spoke to one student who said she experienced bullying for wearing a pin with the flag of Israel on it.
    Complaints of antisemitism have arisen not so much in response to the theme of the protests but instead to the chalk statements and posters hung around our student union, where phrases like “Intifada is revolution is armed struggle,” “Nothing but hate for Israel and Zionism” or “Al-Qassam make us proud,” were common in the days after last Tuesday’s protests. These are the main examples I have heard from Jewish leaders on campus when they say there is hateful rhetoric on campus. In short, the protests themselves are nonviolent, but Jewish students hear the rhetoric espoused at them as violent.
    There's more, and I suggest reading that article.

    So you tell me about the west bank settler violence. Is NPR, the EU, the US lying or is it Israel?


    Israeli Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich, the far-right leader of the Religious Zionist Party, has called international efforts to rein in Israeli settlements the result of an "antisemitic lie spread by Israel's enemies with the aim of discrediting the pioneer settlers."
    So the settlers run wild in the West Bank, and when the west tries to rein them in with sanctions, they are told that they're antisemitic. Does that sound right? Am I in a bubble? Do you know that settlers burned a house down while a Palestinian family slept in it? Destroyed schools. There are plenty more atrocious acts. I can link more articles if you want.
     
    Soros is a horrible person.

    Some of the most outspoken groups against Biden and Israel get funding from foundations attached to some of the biggest names in Democratic circles.

    President Joe Biden has been dogged for months by pro-Palestinian protesters calling him “Genocide Joe” — but some of the groups behind the demonstrations receive financial backing from philanthropists pushing hard for his reelection.

    The donors include some of the biggest names in Democratic circles: Gates, Soros, Rockefeller and Pritzker, according to a POLITICO analysis.

    Two of the main organizers behind protests at Columbia University and on other campuses are Jewish Voice for Peace and IfNotNow. Both are supported by the Tides Foundation, which is seeded by Democratic megadonor George Soros as well as the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, and it in turn supports numerous small nonprofits that work for social change. (Gates did not return a request for comment, and Soros declined to comment.)

    Another notable Democratic donor whose philanthropy has helped fund the protest movement is David Rockefeller Jr., who sits on the board of the Rockefeller Brothers Fund. In 2022, the fund gave $300,000 to the Tides Foundation; according to nonprofit tax forms, Tides has given nearly $500,000 over the past five years to Jewish Voice for Peace, which explicitly describes itself as anti-Zionist.

    Several other groups involved in pro-Palestinian protests are backed by a foundation funded by Susan and Nick Pritzker, heir to the Hyatt Hotel empire — and supporters of Biden and numerous Democratic campaigns, including $6,600 to the Biden Victory Fund a few months ago and more than $300,000 during the 2020 campaign.


     
    Soros is a horrible person.

    Some of the most outspoken groups against Biden and Israel get funding from foundations attached to some of the biggest names in Democratic circles.

    President Joe Biden has been dogged for months by pro-Palestinian protesters calling him “Genocide Joe” — but some of the groups behind the demonstrations receive financial backing from philanthropists pushing hard for his reelection.

    The donors include some of the biggest names in Democratic circles: Gates, Soros, Rockefeller and Pritzker, according to a POLITICO analysis.

    Two of the main organizers behind protests at Columbia University and on other campuses are Jewish Voice for Peace and IfNotNow. Both are supported by the Tides Foundation, which is seeded by Democratic megadonor George Soros as well as the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, and it in turn supports numerous small nonprofits that work for social change. (Gates did not return a request for comment, and Soros declined to comment.)

    Another notable Democratic donor whose philanthropy has helped fund the protest movement is David Rockefeller Jr., who sits on the board of the Rockefeller Brothers Fund. In 2022, the fund gave $300,000 to the Tides Foundation; according to nonprofit tax forms, Tides has given nearly $500,000 over the past five years to Jewish Voice for Peace, which explicitly describes itself as anti-Zionist.

    Several other groups involved in pro-Palestinian protests are backed by a foundation funded by Susan and Nick Pritzker, heir to the Hyatt Hotel empire — and supporters of Biden and numerous Democratic campaigns, including $6,600 to the Biden Victory Fund a few months ago and more than $300,000 during the 2020 campaign.


    The Mercers, the Kochs, Theil, Musk are horrible people.
     
    This issue isn’t BLM all over again. It’s just not. There aren’t any good sides to this conflict. If you think there’s a ‘good’ side and an ‘evil’ side, you aren’t seeing clearly. The entire thing makes me sad.

    That’s because in this conflict, it isn’t a “sides” thing at all.

    This isn’t “Israel vs Hamas”.

    Was it in early October? It seems that way. It very clearly and demonstrably has been nothing other than Israel committing war crimes against people who happen to reside in the same territory of Hamas since October of last year. And that’s how the terrorist Israeli regime has excused it.

    As a “response”.
    As “defending themselves”.
    As “trying to target Hamas”.

    If it’s not blantantly obvious that Israel has consistently lied about their intentions at this point? I don’t know what else to say to people. I’m baffled that watching goalposts moved in real time isn’t convincing.

    No personal offense, truly. But I really wish this narrative of needing there to be “sides” in American politics would stop, because it’s actively harming the cause of those being oppressed in this situation.
     
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    What does the protesting have to do with 'old glory' ? Almost as if some republicans are trying to spin it as anti-american protests or something
     

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