Immigration is completely out of control (2 Viewers)

[SystemShock]

A couple of days ago, one of the main US-MX border points of entry was blocked by 1000's of migrants demanding entry into the country, which caused chaos for those who lawfully cross the border on business, for work, or for delivery of goods, both ways.

Lawful border crossings are getting progressively worse across the border, and drug cartels are finding it easier to move product, as the CBP has to transfer personnel and efforts to the processing of migrants.

It's not different on MX's South border. Yesterday, ~5000 migrants stormed into Chiapas all the way to the INM building (INM is immigration) running over fences, barricades, and elements of the National Guard. They are now taking over an ecological park in Tapachula, Chiapas, which it's going to be severely affected, as it's been the case with just about everywhere migrants squat.

Unfortunately, Juan Trump (that's Donald Trump's pet name for the President of México) was bamboozled by his "friend" Donald into making MX a "lobby" for migrants trying to reach the U.S.

Many people would argue that migrants are "good for the economy", but that is not always the case. Billions of dollars leave the U.S. economy every year, because migrants send money from the U.S. to other countries to support families there. The biggest destinations are India and MX, to the tune of 100 billion dollars in 2023 alone, according to the Bank of México (kind of like the MX version of the Fed). These billions of dollars do not circulate in the U.S. economy.

Speaking of inflation, the past year, the U.S. dollar has lost ~20% of its value against the MX peso. One of the main reasons for it, is the amount of money being sent to MX from the U.S. And MX is the U.S. 2nd largest trading partner.

Gregg Abbott is a lot of things, but I don't blame him for his attempts at curbing the hordes of people demanding entry into the U.S., even the busing of migrants to other States, making some put their money where their mouth is, like the Mayor of NYC, who was so welcoming of migrants, until he he got a taste, then went crying to the federal government for more money, while the shelters were at full capacity; shelters which BTW serve the NYC poor as well.

And please, no one mention a wall. There is a wall. A wall can be climbed; a wall can be dug under.; holes can be punched through walls.

 

[Dragon]

One aspect of this that's missed in this topic, is what happens to children on their way to the U.S. border, all the things they go through.

Maybe people have the impression that these happy loving families just left their happy loving homes in Piedras Negras and walked a few blocks to cross the border at Eagle Pass. but that's not the case.

There is a lot of stuff that happens to children during the trek to the U.S. border, including physical abuse, sexual abuse/trafficking... and many of these children are not even related to the people who try to bring them across the U.S.-MX border: adults just pick them at the U.S.-MX border among the children who are sent alone in the caravan, in order to present a family unit at the border, thinking they'll have a better chance to get into the U.S. with children in tow.

For many of those children, that tent separated from the adults feels really good.

Seeing crying kids clinging to their parents as they are separate does not support your claim and there are plenty of evidence of abuse of separated children too

 

[SystemShock]

Seeing crying kids clinging to their parents as they are separate does not support your claim and there are plenty of evidence of abuse of separated children too

As polite as I can be: Pardon me, but you are seeing choice videos from certain sources. You don't see the news, or videos, or pictures they don't show you, or know what happens to those kids on their way here from places much further than Central America.

Every freaking time the MX police stops a semi truck packed with people, they always find kids traveling alone: 20, 30, 40 kids. Every so often, the MX police arrest people for sexual child trafficking of immigrant children; either they were sold to cartels, or the immigrants themselves sell them for sex. Coyotes tell immigrants at the border to grab unaccompanied kids and claim them as theirs (or an uncle, or relative).

Even CNN touches upon this stories, but not with much detail. Here's but one of them:

Hallan a 148 personas, incluidas decenas de niños, en un camión abandonado en México | CNN

Decenas de migrantes centroamericanos, incluidos 23 niños no acompañados, fueron hallados el viernes en un camión abandonado en el estado de Veracruz, según el Instituto Nacional de Migración (INM) de México.

cnnespanol.cnn.com

And that one, it was only 148 people and 23 kids by themselves in a container. I think the record is 231 people in a container. You should see the stories in Mexican media.

Edit: yep, 231 people in a container with more than 100 minors.

Hallan 231 migrantes encerrados en un camión en México: más de 100 son menores de edad

Las personas viajaban sin alimento ni ventilación.

www.eltiempo.com

 

[MT15]

As polite as I can be: Pardon me, but you are seeing choice videos from certain sources.

I understand what you are saying, but the Trump administration absolutely did purposefully separate young children from their parents as a policy decision. Both things can be true. It’s estimated there are still at least 1,000 children whose parents cannot be located.

It doesn’t have to be one or the other is true.

 

[samiam5211]

As polite as I can be: Pardon me, but you are seeing choice videos from certain sources. You don't see the news, or videos, or pictures they don't show you, or know what happens to those kids on their way here from places much further than Central America.

Every freaking time the MX police stops a semi truck packed with people, they always find kids traveling alone: 20, 30, 40 kids. Every so often, the MX police arrest people for sexual child trafficking of immigrant children; either they were sold to cartels, or the immigrants themselves sell them for sex. Coyotes tell immigrants at the border to grab unaccompanied kids and claim them as theirs (or an uncle, or relative).

Even CNN touches upon this stories, but not with much detail. Here's but one of them:

Hallan a 148 personas, incluidas decenas de niños, en un camión abandonado en México | CNN

Decenas de migrantes centroamericanos, incluidos 23 niños no acompañados, fueron hallados el viernes en un camión abandonado en el estado de Veracruz, según el Instituto Nacional de Migración (INM) de México.

cnnespanol.cnn.com

And that one, it was only 148 people and 23 kids by themselves in a container. I think the record is 231 people in a container. You should see the stories in Mexican media.

Edit: yep, 231 people in a container with more than 100 minors.

Hallan 231 migrantes encerrados en un camión en México: más de 100 son menores de edad

Las personas viajaban sin alimento ni ventilación.

www.eltiempo.com

yea, you have to ask how bad things must be for parents to put their kids at such risk.

 

[SystemShock]

I understand what you are saying, but the Trump administration absolutely did purposefully separate young children from their parents as a policy decision. Both things can be true. It’s estimated there are still at least 1,000 children whose parents cannot be located.

It doesn’t have to be one or the other is true.

I am going to remind you that I said I will not engage you unless you engage me first. Are you sure you want to start a conversation with me, that will probably go into me questioning things you post?

 

[MT15]

I am going to remind you that I said I will not engage you unless you engage me first. Are you sure you want to start a conversation with me, that will probably go into me questioning things you post?

No. I’m really not interested in conversing with you due to the way you go about conversing. I do like reading about your observations, though. I wish you could communicate in a less adversarial manner, but I’ve seen enough over the years to know that won’t happen, at least with me for whatever reason.

 

[SystemShock]

yea, you have to ask how bad things must be for parents to put their kids at such risk.

I have to ask what kind of parent sends their kid(s) by themselves on a 1-2000 mile trek on foot across many countries, among thousands of people they don't know, with nothing but the clothes they have in their backs.

 

[SystemShock]

No. I’m really not interested in conversing with you due to the way you go about conversing. I do like reading about your observations, though. I wish you could communicate in a less adversarial manner, but I’ve seen enough over the years to know that won’t happen, at least with me for whatever reason.

Then don't reply to me.

 

[samiam5211]

I have to ask what kind of parent sends their kid(s) by themselves on a 1-2000 mile trek on foot across many countries, among thousands of people they don't know, with nothing but the clothes they have in their backs.

A good parent.

 

[SystemShock]

A good parent.

You are shirtting me, right? Or are you trying to be contrarian? Or funny? I am curious: what compels you to reply with that?

 

[samiam5211]

You are shirtting me, right? Or are you trying to be contrarian? Or funny? I am curious: what compels you to reply with that?

The odds of their kid getting raped on the trip to the US isn't significantly higher than if they stay in their hometown for the rest of their lives.

 

[coldseat]

Don't ever want to hear from Republicans how bad immigration is or how it's all Biden's fault.

GOP senators seethe as Trump blows up delicate immigration compromise | CNN Politics

Senior Senate Republicans are furious that Donald Trump may have killed an emerging bipartisan deal over the southern border, depriving them of a key legislative achievement on a pressing national priority and offering a preview of what’s to come with Trump as their likely presidential nominee.

www.cnn.com

 

[SystemShock]

The odds of their kid getting raped on the trip to the US isn't significantly higher than if they stay in their hometown for the rest of their lives.

Listen to yourself.

 

[samiam5211]

Listen to yourself.

I'm sorry that I don't think the parents who send their kids here for a better life are bad people.

 

[V Chip]

We're in a great place now... governors backing a governor who is openly defying the Supreme Court.

 

[samiam5211]

We're in a great place now... governors backing a governor who is openly defying the Supreme Court.

He's not technically defying the court. Their ruling didn't say he couldn't put up more wire.

It's a childish waste of money though.

 

[samiam5211]

The gang problem in Central America is almost completely due to our mass deportation of gang members in the late 90s. These were gangs that formed here in the United States, and we exported to mostly Guatemala, Honduras, and El Salvador. MS-13 started in the US, and we deported it to Central America.

I'm not saying that we should not have deported those people, but that doesn't mean that owe nothing to the people are currently fleeing from the unintended consequences of something we did.

We also need to make sure that we understand what has happened before we draft any new immigration reform. We should not repeat our mistakes. If you deport the worst people back to a country, but keep the good people from that country, it can cause long term problems. I don't know if that means we should deport more or less people, but it is something we need to think about.

Anyhow, I asked ChatGPT to support this thesis: Transnational gangs, primarily stemming from the aftermath of the Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act (IIRIRA) of 1996, are a major driving force behind the current refugee crisis facing the United States. This historical context should critically inform future U.S. immigration legislation, emphasizing the need for policies that account for the unintended consequences of deportations and the socio-economic factors contributing to gang formation and migration.

If you hate chatGPT, then don't click it, but it is information.

1. spoiler

   1. Impact of IIRIRA on Gang Formation:
      • The IIRIRA led to increased deportations of immigrants, including those with criminal convictions. Many deportees were members of gangs like MS-13 and Barrio 18, which had formed in U.S. urban areas. These deportations inadvertently exported U.S. gang culture to Central America, where these gangs regrouped, grew in power, and became more organized and violent.
      • Upon arrival in their home countries, many deportees faced limited economic opportunities and social integration challenges, which facilitated the expansion of these gangs in Central America.
      • Origin of MS-13 and Barrio 18 in the U.S.:
        
        • Formation in Los Angeles: Mara Salvatrucha (MS-13) and Barrio 18 originated among Central American immigrant communities in Los Angeles during the 1980s. These gangs initially formed for protection and identity among immigrants, particularly those from El Salvador, Guatemala, and Honduras, who faced challenges and hostilities in urban American neighborhoods.
        • Growth in Urban Centers: The gangs grew in size and power within the U.S., becoming involved in various criminal activities. Their presence expanded to other urban areas with significant Central American populations, establishing a network across multiple cities.
      • Impact of IIRIRA and Deportations:
        
        • Deportation of Gang Members: The passage of the IIRIRA in 1996 led to a significant increase in deportations, particularly of non-citizens convicted of crimes. This policy resulted in the deportation of numerous MS-13 and Barrio 18 members back to their countries of origin.
        • Transnational Expansion: The arrival of deported gang members in Central America transformed the local gang landscape. These deportees brought with them the organizational structure, gang culture, and criminal methodologies they had developed in the U.S.
        • Recruitment and Growth: In Central America, these gangs found fertile ground for recruitment and expansion, partly due to socio-economic hardships, post-civil war societal fractures, and weak governmental institutions. The gangs quickly grew in numbers and influence.
      • Enhanced Power and Influence of Gangs:
        
        • Transnational Networks: The spread of these gangs across multiple countries created transnational criminal networks. This allowed for more sophisticated operations, particularly in drug trafficking, human trafficking, and extortion.
        • Challenging Local Governments: In many areas, especially in the Northern Triangle, these gangs became so powerful that they challenged local governmental authority. Their ability to control territories, influence local economies, and infiltrate institutions led to significant challenges for law enforcement and governance.
        • International Crime and Influence: The transnational nature of MS-13 and Barrio 18 facilitated connections with other criminal organizations, expanding their reach and influence beyond Central America and back into the United States and other countries.
      • Implications for Future Policy:
        
        • Acknowledging Unintended Consequences: Future U.S. immigration and deportation policies must consider the potential for creating or exacerbating international criminal networks. The experience with MS-13 and Barrio 18 demonstrates how domestic policies can have far-reaching international consequences.
        • Support and Rehabilitation: Strategies should include support mechanisms for deported individuals to prevent them from falling into criminal activities. This could involve rehabilitation programs, job training, and social reintegration efforts.
        • International Cooperation: Addressing the problem of transnational gangs requires international cooperation, sharing intelligence, joint law enforcement efforts, and addressing the socio-economic root causes that lead to gang formation and recruitment.
   2. Gang Violence as a Push Factor for Refugees:
      • The intensification of gang violence in Central America, particularly in the Northern Triangle countries (El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras), has become one of the primary push factors for migration towards the U.S. Families and individuals flee to escape the violence, forced gang recruitment, extortion, and threats to their lives and safety.
      • The violence perpetrated by these gangs has led to destabilization in communities, making normal life untenable for many residents, thereby contributing significantly to the refugee crisis.
   3. Future Immigration Legislation Considerations:
      • Future U.S. immigration policies should consider the long-term impacts of deportations on the sending countries, particularly in terms of contributing to conditions that foster transnational criminal organizations.
      • Legislation should focus on creating comprehensive strategies that include support for deported individuals, aid to improve socio-economic conditions in Central American countries, and international cooperation in tackling gang violence.
      • Policies should also address the root causes of migration, such as poverty, lack of education, and employment opportunities, to reduce the pressures leading to undocumented migration and the formation of criminal networks.
   4. Humanitarian and Security Balance:
      • Future immigration laws should strike a balance between national security and humanitarian needs, recognizing that harsh deportation policies can sometimes exacerbate the very problems they aim to solve.
      • There should be an emphasis on humane treatment and fair legal processes for migrants and refugees, acknowledging that many are fleeing conditions partly influenced by previous U.S. policies.
   5. In summary, understanding the historical impact of policies like the IIRIRA on the growth of transnational gangs and the subsequent refugee crisis is crucial for shaping more effective and responsible U.S. immigration policies. Such policies should not only address immediate national security concerns but also consider the broader international and humanitarian implications.

 

[SystemShock]

I'm sorry that I don't think the parents who send their kids here for a better life are bad people.

Again, listen to yourself.