Immigration is completely out of control (1 Viewer)

[SystemShock]

A couple of days ago, one of the main US-MX border points of entry was blocked by 1000's of migrants demanding entry into the country, which caused chaos for those who lawfully cross the border on business, for work, or for delivery of goods, both ways.

Lawful border crossings are getting progressively worse across the border, and drug cartels are finding it easier to move product, as the CBP has to transfer personnel and efforts to the processing of migrants.

It's not different on MX's South border. Yesterday, ~5000 migrants stormed into Chiapas all the way to the INM building (INM is immigration) running over fences, barricades, and elements of the National Guard. They are now taking over an ecological park in Tapachula, Chiapas, which it's going to be severely affected, as it's been the case with just about everywhere migrants squat.

Unfortunately, Juan Trump (that's Donald Trump's pet name for the President of México) was bamboozled by his "friend" Donald into making MX a "lobby" for migrants trying to reach the U.S.

Many people would argue that migrants are "good for the economy", but that is not always the case. Billions of dollars leave the U.S. economy every year, because migrants send money from the U.S. to other countries to support families there. The biggest destinations are India and MX, to the tune of 100 billion dollars in 2023 alone, according to the Bank of México (kind of like the MX version of the Fed). These billions of dollars do not circulate in the U.S. economy.

Speaking of inflation, the past year, the U.S. dollar has lost ~20% of its value against the MX peso. One of the main reasons for it, is the amount of money being sent to MX from the U.S. And MX is the U.S. 2nd largest trading partner.

Gregg Abbott is a lot of things, but I don't blame him for his attempts at curbing the hordes of people demanding entry into the U.S., even the busing of migrants to other States, making some put their money where their mouth is, like the Mayor of NYC, who was so welcoming of migrants, until he he got a taste, then went crying to the federal government for more money, while the shelters were at full capacity; shelters which BTW serve the NYC poor as well.

And please, no one mention a wall. There is a wall. A wall can be climbed; a wall can be dug under.; holes can be punched through walls.

 

[SystemShock]

The gang problem in Central America is almost completely due to our mass deportation of gang members in the late 90s.

Not true.

These were gangs that formed here in the United States, and we exported to mostly Guatemala, Honduras, and El Salvador. MS-13 started in the US, and we deported it to Central America.

The U.S. doesn't deport citizens. The U.S. will deport anyone with a criminal record. There is a large group of veterans of U.S. wars in Tijuana who were deported and they are still trying to get back and claim VA benefits.

I'm not saying that we should not have deported those people, but that doesn't mean that owe nothing to the people are currently fleeing from the unintended consequences of something we did.

We don't own anything to them.

You probably think that Central America was an Eden with everyone living in middle-class harmony before the evil U.S. sent criminals back where they belong in the 1990's. I got news for you, they were not.

We also need to make sure that we understand what has happened before we draft any new immigration reform. We should not repeat our mistakes. If you deport the worst people back to a country, but keep the good people from that country, it can cause long term problems. I don't know if that means we should deport more or less people, but it is something we need to think about.

So the U.S. should just keep the worst people from everywhere?

Anyhow, I asked ChatGPT to support this thesis:

So now chatGPT is a lawyer.

 

[LA - L.A.]

Again, listen to yourself.

Physician, heal thyself.

Blast away, because that's all you know how to do.

 

[samiam5211]

Not true.



The U.S. doesn't deport citizens. The U.S. will deport anyone with a criminal record. There is a large group of veterans of U.S. wars in Tijuana who were deported and they are still trying to get back and claim VA benefits.


We don't own anything to them.

You probably think that Central America was an Eden with everyone living in middle-class harmony before the evil U.S. sent criminals back where they belong in the 1990's. I got news for you, they were not.


So the U.S. should just keep the worst people from everywhere?


So now chatGPT is a lawyer.

I don't respect your opinion.

 

[MT15]

 

[MT15]

I don’t know why the tweet he was replying to didn’t show up above, but here it is.

 

[SystemShock]

Physician, heal thyself.

Blast away, because that's all you know how to do.

Did you read what he posted? Or are you just as morally bankrupt as he is, that you agree with what he posted, because you cannot admit something that you may consider to be a point for the other tribe?

Do you seriously think a good parent will leave their child among a large group of strangers in Honduras, with nothing but the clothes on the child's back, so the child can march across Honduras, through Guatemala, and through Mexico, to the U.S. border? That's a good parent to you?

 

[SystemShock]

I don't respect your opinion.

Oh, no! Please, no!

About the only sentence that could be considered an opinion is me saying we don't own them anything, and we don't. Neither the U.S. or Mexico. And really, we don't.

This is not an opinion: The U.S. doesn't "export" gang members. Those gang members deported are/were not U.S. citizens. The U.S. is simply returning to sender. A condition of residency is to not commit crimes in the U.S. You commit a crime, you violate the terms of your residency, off you go where you came from.

This is not an opinion either: there were gangs in Central America before the 90's, and the 80's, and the 70's. And the U.S. didn't plant them there.

This is not an opinion either: asking you if the U.S. should keep the worst of everywhere else.

 

[LA - L.A.]

Did you read what he posted?

Yes. I also read everything you've posted in this thread.

Or are you just as morally bankrupt as he is,...

How's the air up there on your sanctimonious pedestal?

...that you agree with what he posted,...

What I said had nothing to do with what he said. It had everything to do with you having the gall to question anyone else's self-awareness.

...because you cannot admit something that you may consider to be a point for the other tribe?

Physician, heal thyself. I don't subscribe to any tribal beliefs and I don't have loyalties to any tribe.

Do you seriously think a good parent will leave their child among a large group of strangers in Honduras, with nothing but the clothes on the child's back, so the child can march across Honduras, through Guatemala, and through Mexico, to the U.S. border?

Do you listen to yourself? Do you listen to the questions you ask? Do you not see the derogatory, accusatory assumptions that you crammed into your question above?

Have you stopped abusing the children in your neighborhood? See how easy it is to ask leading, inflammatory and accusatory questions? If I can do it, any fool can do it. It's not in any way a sign of any kind of superiority of any kind.

Regarding the parents, I don't fool myself into thinking I'm in any position to know or understand people whom I've never spent even a minute of time with or heard from them directly. I'm realistic and rational in regards to that. Let's look at this on a objectively factual basis.

• Over 2.2 million people were apprehended at the US-Mexico border in 2023. The actaul number of people crossing the border is higher and unknown, because we can't accurately count anyone who successfully evaded apprehension.
• Let's say we've heard factually accurate stories of 10,000 specific people of those 2.2 million people. I think that's a genrously high number of people.
• When we divide 10,000 by 2.2 million we get 4.55%. So at best, we know the accurate story of 4.55% of the people crossing the US-Mexico border.
• Is it rational or respectful to assume that 4.55% of a group of people are representative of the entire group?

How may of the over 2.2 million people have you personally lived with or made the journey with? How many of them have you personally spent hours of time with? How many of them have you personally talked to and heard their story directly from them? How many of them do you have any actual in person, first hand experience with or knowledge of?

Now divide the total number of those you have first hand experience with or knowledge of by the millions of immigrants that travel through Mexico to the US every year. What percentage of the millions of refugees and immigrants traveling through Mexico to the US do you have first hand experience with or knowledge of?

Do you still think you know the life situations of all of them, what they are all doing, what they are all experiencing, and why they are all doing it?

Yet despite the fact that you have little to no first hand knowledge of the millions of them, you don't hesitate to talk about the millions of them as if you know their life situation and their motivations, and to judge them them and their motivations.

That's not rational behavior. That's irrational, prejudicial and tribal behavior.

You also are quick to be dismissive of people who refer to written and video reports about them as being fooled by selective reporting. Aren't you also relying on reporting for what knowledge you think you have of the situration, pot?

That's a good parent to you?

Do you not see the derogatory assumption you shoved into that question? Do you not see that you are phrasing a thinly veiled accusation as a question? Do you not see that thinly veiled accusation is based on other flawed assumptions that you have made?

These type of questions seem to be asked to force people to discuss a topic only on your terms. These questions also seem to be designed to either get a concession from the person you are asking or suffer ad hominem attacks by you.

I recognize it all too well, because I've had 58 years of experience dealing with it from my entire, narcissistic nuclear family and most of my extended family as well. After 58 years of dealing with this type of irrational, bullying nonsense, I've decided to call it out any and every time I see it. Especially, when I see it being done to someone else.

Changing the macro level of society happens at the micro, personal level. The world changes one person at a time. Creating communities, societies and governments that behave with respect, with rationality, with compassion and with accountability happens one person at a time, or it never happens at all.

 

[samiam5211]

Oh, no! Please, no!

About the only sentence that could be considered an opinion is me saying we don't own them anything, and we don't. Neither the U.S. or Mexico. And really, we don't.

This is not an opinion: The U.S. doesn't "export" gang members. Those gang members deported are/were not U.S. citizens. The U.S. is simply returning to sender. A condition of residency is to not commit crimes in the U.S. You commit a crime, you violate the terms of your residency, off you go where you came from.

This is not an opinion either: there were gangs in Central America before the 90's, and the 80's, and the 70's. And the U.S. didn't plant them there.

This is not an opinion either: asking you if the U.S. should keep the worst of everywhere else.

Look, when you talk about immigration, it is crystal clear to me that you don't have a clue what you are talking about.

Not once did I say there were no gangs before we deported MS-13. If only your knowledge matched your confidence.

I don't care what you think you know.

 

[MT15]

What is the reason for not allowing people who want to work into the country? The US has done that for decades, a hundred years. Almost everyone in this country comes from a family that included immigrants at one point. We have a labor shortage and a Social Security shortage.

Yes, a percentage will be criminal. Just like a percentage of people born here will be criminal. We’ve seen it in the past.

What could be the reason?

 

[MT15]

I feel like there’s a lot of truth in this:

 

[FullMonte]

I know this won’t affect the MAGA cult…

https://www.cato.org/blog/new-data-show-migrants-were-more-likely-be-released-trump-biden

 

[J-DONK]

With the absolute failure of trying to democratize China via capitalism. You have to wonder if all that effort going back to the 70's has been spent in Central America. What kind of refugee problems would America have, if any at all?

Also, this is only being drummed up in an election year because Republicans realize no one cares about trans stuff. It's amazing how the debt, deficit, and immigration are all magically solved under Republican presidents, and then become world ending under Democrats.

 

[FullMonte]

Oh, and to add context to the article earlier saying that Biden released a smaller percentage of border crosser into the U.S. than Trump…that data comes directly from a report from…

…wait for it….

The House Judiciary Committee chaired by Gym Jordan himself.

 

[SystemShock]

Blah blah blah blah blah you you you blah blah blah blah blah you you...

Let me tell you what happened here.

You jumped into a conversation, in which I asked "what kind of parent sends their kid(s) by themselves on a 1-2000 mile trek on foot across many countries, among thousands of people they don't know, with nothing but the clothes they have in their backs."

The reply I got was "a good parent".

I reply to that "Listen to yourself"

Then you jumped into it "heal thyself".

So I have to ask, are you agreeing with the sentiment that a good parent would send their kid(s) by themselves on a 1-2000 mile trek on foot across many countries, among thousands of people they don't know, with nothing but the clothes they have in their backs? Or did you just feel the need to "put me down"?

Can you even say that a good parent does not send their kid(s) by themselves on a 1-2000 mile trek on foot across many countries, among thousands of people they don't know, with nothing but the clothes they have in their backs?

As for the rest, I do have certain experience which I will not divulge here... other than that, I have experience with both INM and INS; also, here in MX, news networks are not like U.S. networks: they don't take sides like FOX/Newsmax vis a vis CNN/MSNBC... for the most part, they just deliver the news and raw footage of events; so yeah, we get kids crying, but we also learn of kids disappearing, dying, sex traffic... get to see the mayhem of 100's if not 1000's attacking the police, taking over and destroying INM offices, holding people hostage... the aftermath of thousands of people walking down the road making MX a trash can, complaining about the food, clothing, healthcare, and even the soap they are given, even when some Mexican can't get that...

Traditionally my hometown of Mérida was mostly a port of entry for Cubans, Koreans (good sized Korean population here) with the occasional Haitian family making it ashore... now we are experiencing problems with people coming into the country illegally we didn't have before, and Mérida is not even on the path from Guatemala to the U.S. border... people from C.A., Venezuela, Colombia... as far away as India, Ghana, Russia...

The State of Chiapas is a mess. There just isn't enough police to control the battalions of immigrants coming across, and effectively police the Mexican populace.

And so are towns along the U.S.-MX border. Commerce is being disrupted. And this is not commerce between Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk.. they are disrupting commerce of small and medium businesses, on both sides of the border. And not just commerce, but people who cross the border either way to go to work.

But don't let any of those facts get you off your high horse.

 

[SystemShock]

Look, when you talk about immigration, it is crystal clear to me that you don't have a clue what you are talking about.

Not once did I say there were no gangs before we deported MS-13. If only your knowledge matched your confidence.

I don't care what you think you know.

What you posted, and I quote: "The gang problem in Central America is almost completely due to our mass deportation of gang members in the late 90s."

Which is simply not true.

They were plenty of gang issues way before the 90's. The friends I had from C.A. (except Costa Rica and Panama) in college in the 80's, all have bullet proof cars and carried weapons back home because of gangs, because (who'd have thought) gangs like to take from the people who have stuff... it's more lucrative.

 

[samiam5211]

What you posted, and I quote: "The gang problem in Central America is almost completely due to our mass deportation of gang members in the late 90s."

Which is simply not true.

They were plenty of gang issues way before the 90's. The friends I had from C.A. (except Costa Rica and Panama) in college in the 80's, all have bullet proof cars and carried weapons back home because of gangs, because (who'd have thought) gangs like to take from the people who have stuff... it's more lucrative.

The gang problems that have today are absolutely the result of that.

MS-13 formed in the US. We sent those people to three different countries. instantly you had a transnational gang that had strong connections in the US.

That isn't something that has existed before.

I don't care what you think. I've worked in this field for over 20 years had have interviewed over 15,000 immigrants from almost every country on the planet.

You are someone who is so confident that you know what is going on, but you have a very narrow experience that is also tainted by prejudice.

Condescend all you want, i do not care.

 

[coldseat]

=================
By the mid-1990s, partly as a way to deal with the gangs and partly as a product of the get-tough immigration push toward the end of the presidency of Bill Clinton, the US government began a program of deportation of foreign-born residents convicted of a wide range of crimes. This enhanced deportation policy vastly increased the number of gang members being sent home to El Salvador, Honduras, Guatemala, and elsewhere.

According to one estimate, 20,000 criminals returned to Central America between 2000 and 2004. That trend continues US immigration authorities removed nearly 6,000 suspected gang members in 2018 alone – around 1,300 of them from the MS13.

Central American governments, some of the poorest and most ineffective in the Western Hemisphere, were not capable of dealing with the criminal influx, nor were they properly forewarned by US authorities.

The convicts, who often had only the scarcest connection to their countries of birth, had little chance of integrating into legitimate society, and they often turned to gang life. In this way, the decision to use immigration policy as an anti-gang tool helped spawn the virulent growth of the gang in Honduras, El Salvador and Guatemala.
==================

MS13

The Mara Salvatrucha, or MS13, is perhaps the most notorious street gang in the Western Hemisphere.

insightcrime.org

Btw, the US is also responsible for the reason those Central American immigrants that were in LA to begin with. Due to our support of coups and dictators in that region in our covert CIA missions to fight communism that destabilized those countries and caused the internal conflicts that led to the migration. So we double dipped. Yay for US!

============
The MS13 was founded in the poor, marginalized neighborhoods of Los Angeles in the 1980s. As a result of the civil wars wracking El Salvador, Guatemala and Nicaragua, refugees flooded northward. Many of them wound up in California, living among the mostly Mexican neighborhoods of East and Central Los Angeles, as well as the San Fernando Valley.
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