How to improve American Education in 2021. (2 Viewers)

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Paul

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The most recent PISA results, from 2015, placed the U.S. an unimpressive 38th out of 71 countries in math and 24th in science. Among the 35 members of the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, which sponsors the PISA initiative, the U.S. ranked 30th in math and 19th in science.


My suggestion is rather simple.

1. Study why immigrants from East Asia, India, and Nigeria do well with American education. Apply that insight to other groups (if possible).
2. Manage public schools as if though they were private schools with uniforms and discipline.
3. Create high end special schools for those that are truly disenfranchised.
4. Create a force of social workers to treat family dysfunction with regards to education.
5. Reduce the curriculum to the simple basics and repeat that on a yearly basis.
6. At about 10th grade divide college bound students away from non-college bound.
7. Provide solid basic education and trade training for non-college bound kids. There is no point in offering free college to these kids.
 
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MT15

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Then I would suggest you remember that the next time you ask me to run an errand for you. But, I am a nice guy, not some grouch so here you go. Don't say I never did anything important for you because this obviously import to you. Why else would you follow me around with this for 4 pages. I like tulips. Not a rose fan.
Thanks, I totally missed that post. But I think you’re giving yourself way too much credit saying I followed you around for 4 pages, lol. I asked exactly once.
 

Goatman saint

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The educational gap is a big contributor to the wealth gap. We are living in the most prosperous time in world history and yet you guys show little compassion to the people that are in perennial despair living in neighborhoods with no good education.

The plan is expensive, but is targeted to descendants of slaves. It is reparations and will not be available to other minorities or women. The problem with other programs is that it benefited people that did not really need that much help such as white women, immigrants, and blacks from Africa rather than America.

As for healthcare I favor Medicare for all.
For you to imply that I, or others on this thread care nothing you are sadly mistaken and totally wrong. You are also wrong to think that because someone doesn’t live an upper income like that they are somehow in perennial dispair is insulting to them. There are many many good people who live in poverty. They have terrific values and love of life. A rich group of friends and family. That statement alone shows your true judgemental attitude and your absolute blind ignorance towards people. It’s disgusting that that is your mentality towards people that I call family and friends. People who would give you the shirt off their backs, invite you to their homes, work their arses off each day. I’d rather have 1000 of them than a judgmental jerk like you.
So it’s towards the defendants of slaves only. What about the native Americans who live in absolute poverty? The Hispanic Americans picking your food in the Central Valley. The other immigrants, the generational poverty of whites all over this country? Or are they just too good?
Look I’ve spent 3 days reading about how you think income means everything. How test scores determine people’s worth. How on one hand private boarding schools are great, yet slamming my profession without even listening to the fact that the pretty well to do community greatly benefits from a variety of items, yet not even realizing how someone out of desperate poverty has learned more, grown more, faced more life challenges than any of your high level perfect children. Why don’t you go back and look at what you wrote in the equality thread.
 

RobF

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If the dysfunctional home cannot be fixed I would send the poor kids to boarding schools paid by tax dollars.

The ultra rich send their kids to boarding school. That could be an option for some poor kids. Why not? The kids would be removed from dysfunctional homes during the week and spend the weekend at home. What is wrong with that? I would also make them wear uniforms and teach ethics. Give them the same advantages the wealthy get. Assign tutors in the school to take the place of parents that have no interest in educating their kids.

All of us. It is reparations for descendants of slaves.

...

This will take a few years. Hopefully the system will produce polite educated gentlemen that have a bright future Any gain in academics is better than the current ground zero.

The plan is expensive, but is targeted to descendants of slaves. It is reparations and will not be available to other minorities or women. The problem with other programs is that it benefited people that did not really need that much help such as white women, immigrants, and blacks from Africa rather than America.
This isn't so much the mask slipping - it was already pretty loose - as it is the mask being thrown away, and the dog whistle replaced with a bullhorn.

So Paul's plan is take 'poor kids', by which he means African American boys, from 'dysfunctional homes', by which he means the homes of African American families, during the week so that tutors can take the place of 'parents that have no interest in educating their kids', by which he means African American parents, so they can be turned into 'polite educated gentlemen'.

And he excludes women from this because... reasons.

Frankly, I don't think that deserves any response beyond stating that it's racist, sexist, bigoted, and ignorant.
 
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Goatman saint

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RobF- I keep comparing what he wants to do to what the church and government wanted to do to the native Americans. Take them away from their savage families and conditions and make them into perfect young men.
Oh wait… not entirely different than when the Spanish missionaries came to California to do well kinda the same thing. Make poor backwards people into good Spanish citizens.
Im sure if I decided to look what Paul is talking about has been tried before also. Always gotta have that benevolent well to do faction come in and save the minority from themselves.
 
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Paul

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For you to imply that I, or others on this thread care nothing you are sadly mistaken and totally wrong.
Why continue to favor a system that is perpetuating an under educated class of people? Why not try a new approach?
You are also wrong to think that because someone doesn’t live an upper income like that they are somehow in perennial dispair is insulting to them. There are many many good people who live in poverty. They have terrific values and love of life.
I did not say that. I said that there is a group of people that descend from slaves that need a Marshall plan and not touchy feely remarks. They need tough love and a world class education.
A rich group of friends and family. That statement alone shows your true judgemental attitude and your absolute blind ignorance towards people. It’s disgusting that that is your mentality towards people that I call family and friends. People who would give you the shirt off their backs, invite you to their homes, work their arses off each day. I’d rather have 1000 of them than a judgmental jerk like you.
No need to use the word "jerk" this is against forum rules. As for the judgmental comment: all of us judge on a daily basis, that is a meaningless comment.
So it’s towards the defendants of slaves only. What about the native Americans who live in absolute poverty? The Hispanic Americans picking your food in the Central Valley. The other immigrants, the generational poverty of whites all over this country? Or are they just too good?
Reparations for native Indians and descendants of slaves would be a just cause. Most think of cash, but that obviously would not work as things would remain the same once the cash is gone. Reparations are best done by providing education and not the wishy washy public schools that we now have. The immigrants that come to America to pick food come here on a voluntary basis. The idea of trying to save all results in "no one gets saved". I rather save some than none. Your rhetoric sounds good on a paper, but are a pipe dream. Lasly poor white people were not made poor by oppression or racism.
Look I’ve spent 3 days reading about how you think income means everything.
Strawman
How test scores determine people’s worth.

What About People Who Argue that the SAT and IQ tests Are “Meaningless”?​

The people who argue that SAT and IQ tests are meaningless are blind to the evidence. They want to believe that everyone has an equal shot at success, because it’s consistent with American values. Just because you want to believe something, however, does not make it true. The predictive validity of IQ tests (and the SAT is pretty much an IQ test) is THE best-supported correlation in psychology. If you reject the validity of intelligence tests as predictive measures of success, you’re choosing to ignore the results of a century’s worth of scientific inquiry.
 
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Paul

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RobF- I keep comparing what he wants to do to what the church and government wanted to do to the native Americans. Take them away from their savage families and conditions and make them into perfect young men.
Oh wait… not entirely different than when the Spanish missionaries came to California to do well kinda the same thing. Make poor backwards people into good Spanish citizens.
Im sure if I decided to look what Paul is talking about has been tried before also. Always gotta have that benevolent well to do faction come in and save the minority from themselves.
What you describe above is what the left leaning white Democrats are doing today.
 

Goatman saint

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Why continue to favor a system that is perpetuating an under educated class of people? Why not try a new approach?

I did not say that. I said that there is a group of people that descend from slaves that need a Marshall plan and not touchy feely remarks. They need tough love and a world class education.

No need to use the word "jerk" this is against forum rules. As for the judgmental comment: all of us judge on a daily basis, that is a meaningless comment.

Reparations for native Indians and descendants of slaves would be a just cause. Most think of cash, but that obviously would not work as things would remain the same once the cash is gone. Reparations are best done by providing education and not the wishy washy public schools that we now have. The immigrants that come to America to pick food come here on a voluntary basis. The idea of trying to save all results in "no one gets saved". I rather save some than none. Your rhetoric sounds good on a paper, but are a pipe dream. Lasly poor white people were not made poor by oppression or racism.

Strawman


What About People Who Argue that the SAT and IQ tests Are “Meaningless”?​

The people who argue that SAT and IQ tests are meaningless are blind to the evidence. They want to believe that everyone has an equal shot at success, because it’s consistent with American values. Just because you want to believe something, however, does not make it true. The predictive validity of IQ tests (and the SAT is pretty much an IQ test) is THE best-supported correlation in psychology. If you reject the validity of intelligence tests as predictive measures of success, you’re choosing to ignore the results of a century’s worth of scientific inquiry.

Do some reading. An article about how IQ and SAT scores determine success on a website called love the sat might possibly be somewhat biased.
Have you ever had an IQ test done by someone who is actually qualified to give it in the correct setting? Doubtful. I have, and I can assure ou it’s based heavily on standard upper middle class white vocabulary, and the image portions of it give a huge advantage to someone who has had the time and hands on practice as a child to develop visual awareness through blocks, legos, puzzles things like this. Which is why IQ has been tossed by the vast majority of anyone related to education.
As far as the SAT gauging success, it again is weighted heavily with standard white America vocabulary, as are all standardized tests. So much so that colleges are dropping those requirements because oops they do not have any correlation to students finishing college. https://www.forbes.com/sites/nickmo...ndardized-tests-that-predict-college-success/


Kids need tough love. Ok. Here you are successful in life. And you say these kids need tough love. You sound a lot like one of the teachers at my school. These kids need to grow up, toughen up. Ever read up on Maslow? Kids need to feel safe, secure, needs met and loved before they can succeed. Brain research shows all information is processed through the emotional filter first, before any action takes place. So taking children away from families, even with good intention, causes doubt and grief. Ever work with foster youth? Ever deal with the emotional baggage of what you are trying to say by taking kids away and putting them in a boarding school? I assure you I have. I assure you I know what I’m talking about. You cannot wave a magic wand take them away from their limited support structure and have them bloom and grow in your fantasy land.
Until society changes, until this country takes a long hard look at itself and says we don’t care about corporate profits or being a billionaire, we need a healthy population and begin to make meaningful changes on life quality, opportunities to be healthy, fed and safe and removing the hopelessness of underserved communities, then nothing will change. Sorry. I have 25 years worth of working in this setting you are talking about. I’ve come to work and seen cops using a firehouse to wash blood from shootings off the playground before kids get there. I’ve held a pregnant coworker during a lockdown due to shootings. I’ve stood out in the open directing people as there was a gang shooting going on around the corner. I’ve had 9 year old students get their heads blown off while watching tv due to a drive by. I’ve seen students stealing food from the cafeteria for their families as that’s all they have. I’ve had to 5150 students who were taken away from their families, one of whom killed himself in 5th grade because of the abandonment issues.
Know what else I’ve seen? Kids graduating into international business. Veterinarians, people on paths to lawyers, one who is, full BSRNs, policemen, firemen, teachers, administrators, city/county level elected officials, psychologists heck those are just the ones I keep track of. Know what else I see? Store owners, taco truck owners, cooks, truck drivers, field workers, the people who do the dirty work so food is on your table your pipes work and your ac stays cool.
You are using your values to judge the success and value of others.
You also do not know, nor did you pay attention to when I said the US is the only country that educates everyone on the same track. To give them the same
Opportunities. Every other country either tracks students (illegal in US) or simply doesn’t educate and washes them out.
 

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Once again you contradict yourself Paul. First the “left” is ignoring minorities, then they are the benevolent well to do faction coming in to save the minorities from themselves.

The Democrats are today trying to do what is really needed: making sure that all citizens can exercise their right to vote. Making sure working class families get help with child care and food on the table. They are trying to bring back good paying jobs and transition the workforce to jobs that will support the change to renewable energy.

Republicans are just busy crying about non-existent election fraud, non-existent “socialism”, and obstructing public health measures.
 

RobF

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Ever deal with the emotional baggage of what you are trying to say by taking kids away and putting them in a boarding school?
There's been a couple of interesting books out recently, that relate to that subject - the nature of boarding school and the impact on those who go through it - over here:


And a couple of related interviews and excerpts:

 

JRad

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What’s funny is I picked up a lot of bad habits at boarding school. Thinking on it, it’s where a lot of my catholic school behaviors/teachings started going away, despite it being a catholic boarding school.
 
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Farb

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Thanks, I totally missed that post. But I think you’re giving yourself way too much credit saying I followed you around for 4 pages, lol. I asked exactly once.
I mean come on, you were practically throwing yourself at me like a elementary school crush Have some dignity MT ;)
I am only joking. All good, no problem at all.
 
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Paul

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Do some reading. An article about how IQ and SAT scores determine success on a website called love the sat might possibly be somewhat biased.
Have you ever had an IQ test done by someone who is actually qualified to give it in the correct setting?

Intelligence and SAT scores denial has become become the left-wing counterpart to climate change denial?

IQ measures how some individuals figure out complex problems. It is just a talent, no different than how some people can play music effortlessly or swing a golf club with high precision. IQ measures intellectual talent and it is just no different that measuring how fast some people can run, or how some people have perfect pitch in music and other are tone deaf.

A person who denies the Holocaust or evolution might as well throw out the entire field of history or biology respectively. Denying IQ (or SAT scores) is trashing the field of psychological research.
Doubtful. I have, and I can assure ou it’s based heavily on standard upper middle class white vocabulary, and the image portions of it give a huge advantage to someone who has had the time and hands on practice as a child to develop visual awareness through blocks, legos, puzzles things like this. Which is why IQ has been tossed by the vast majority of anyone related to education.
How come the top scorers in SAT testing are first or second generation East Asians and people from India? These folks have a culture that is a billion miles away from Western culture. This denialism of achievement is worse than climate change denialism on the right.
As far as the SAT gauging success, it again is weighted heavily with standard white America vocabulary, as are all standardized tests. So much so that colleges are dropping those requirements because oops they do not have any correlation to students finishing college. https://www.forbes.com/sites/nickmo...ndardized-tests-that-predict-college-success/

Colleges are under enormous pressure to admit minorities (except Asians) regardless of SAT scores . Easy Asians are now massively discriminated as Ivy League colleges feel they have too many good applicants from East Asia. This issue of cultural bias in the test is very wishy washy.

Kids need tough love. Ok. Here you are successful in life. And you say these kids need tough love.
Yes, love is needed, but kids also need a firm hand to guide them. The bleeding heart rhetoric has not done the job.
You sound a lot like one of the teachers at my school. These kids need to grow up, toughen up.
Japanese students clean their own school. Imagine asking American kids to do that in a poor neighborhood. The outcry of left leaning people would be very loud.
origin.jpg

Until society changes, until this country takes a long hard look at itself and says we don’t care about corporate profits or being a billionaire, we need a healthy population and begin to make meaningful changes on life quality, opportunities to be healthy, fed and safe and removing the hopelessness of underserved communities, then nothing will change.
This is exactly what I have said. You called them hopeless! If I had said the same you would be upset. You seem to agree with me.
Sorry. I have 25 years worth of working in this setting you are talking about. I’ve come to work and seen cops using a firehouse to wash blood from shootings off the playground before kids get there. I’ve held a pregnant coworker during a lockdown due to shootings. I’ve stood out in the open directing people as there was a gang shooting going on around the corner. I’ve had 9 year old students get their heads blown off while watching tv due to a drive by. I’ve seen students stealing food from the cafeteria for their families as that’s all they have. I’ve had to 5150 students who were taken away from their families, one of whom killed himself in 5th grade because of the abandonment issues.
And yet you want to keep these kids in the neighborhood. If I was king I would do better and provide a nurturing environment in a high end school where none of that nonsense and violence would exist.
You are using your values to judge the success and value of others.
You also do not know, nor did you pay attention to when I said the US is the only country that educates everyone on the same track. To give them the same
Opportunities. Every other country either tracks students (illegal in US) or simply doesn’t educate and washes them out.
The USA is the only nation that assumes all kids have the talent to achieve very high if given opportunity. This statement assumes all humans are equal---------- and that is not reality.
 
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Paul

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Once again you contradict yourself Paul. First the “left” is ignoring minorities, then they are the benevolent well to do faction coming in to save the minorities from themselves.

The Democrats are today trying to do what is really needed: making sure that all citizens can exercise their right to vote. Making sure working class families get help with child care and food on the table. They are trying to bring back good paying jobs and transition the workforce to jobs that will support the change to renewable energy.

Republicans are just busy crying about non-existent election fraud, non-existent “socialism”, and obstructing public health measures.
The Democrats tend to do better for those that are in the bottom as well as the middle class.
However, the old Republicans (before Trump) also had some good ideas.
 
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Paul

Paul

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What’s funny is I picked up a lot of bad habits at boarding school. Thinking on it, it’s where a lot of my catholic school behaviors/teachings started going away, despite it being a catholic boarding school.
Anecdotes are anecdotes.
We know memories can be manipulated to benefit our perspective. Good job!
 

JRad

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Anecdotes are anecdotes.
We know memories can be manipulated to benefit our perspective. Good job!
Why do you keep insisting on dictating my own life experiences to me? This is the second time you’ve more or less said my life experience can’t be right because it doesn’t fit your narrative. I know when I stated drinking, smoking, lost faith in the church, etc. I still know what “anecdotal” means. I don’t claim my personal experience as fact. I feel like you’re accusing me of making shirt up to fit a narrative, and I’m not ok with it.
 

Goatman saint

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Intelligence and SAT scores denial has become become the left-wing counterpart to climate change denial?

IQ measures how some individuals figure out complex problems. It is just a talent, no different than how some people can play music effortlessly or swing a golf club with high precision. IQ measures intellectual talent and it is just no different that measuring how fast some people can run, or how some people have perfect pitch in music and other are tone deaf.

A person who denies the Holocaust or evolution might as well throw out the entire field of history or biology respectively. Denying IQ (or SAT scores) is trashing the field of psychological research.

How come the top scorers in SAT testing are first or second generation East Asians and people from India? These folks have a culture that is a billion miles away from Western culture. This denialism of achievement is worse than climate change denialism on the right.

Colleges are under enormous pressure to admit minorities (except Asians) regardless of SAT scores . Easy Asians are now massively discriminated as Ivy League colleges feel they have too many good applicants from East Asia. This issue of cultural bias in the test is very wishy washy.


Yes, love is needed, but kids also need a firm hand to guide them. The bleeding heart rhetoric has not done the job.

Japanese students clean their own school. Imagine asking American kids to do that in a poor neighborhood. The outcry of left leaning people would be very loud.
origin.jpg



This is exactly what I have said. You called them hopeless! If I had said the same you would be upset. You seem to agree with me.

And yet you want to keep these kids in the neighborhood. If I was king I would do better and provide a nurturing environment in a high end school where none of that nonsense and violence would exist.

The USA is the only nation that assumes all kids have the talent to achieve very high if given opportunity. This statement assumes all humans are equal---------- and that is not reality.
What you’re missing is intelligence vs desire. Why do you think Asians outperform in computation and other areas. An A- is an Asian F. To deny that Asians put an enormous amount of pressure on their children is simply false. https://www.humanium.org/en/child-suicide-in-japan-the-leading-cause-of-death-in-children/ I would also doubt if Asians are any more intelligent than anyone else. Their drive to succeed though isn’t easily matched. Asian issues come up when it comes to interpersonal skills (due to being focused on task and less interpersonal skill development growing up) and they do fall behind in problem solving. Something the Japanese realized in the 80s as the raising and education of their youth did great in one way, but was lacking in the creativity and problem solving of the American education system. And here again, very few of the Asian population is at the level that you think. They are not all your stereotype.
Actually, you’d be surprised. It’s your more well to do who throw a fit about kids cleaning the school. Where I’m at, we have no issues whatsoever with it, only issue is that with Covid restrictions it’s become more difficult.
Past this I’m done. You have your agenda. Fine. You go.
 

CoolBrees

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For jeebus sakes. The SATs do not test your intelligence. They test your English and math acumen. Both are about regurgitation not critical thinking.

Trouble shooting a two stroke engine in shop class is 10times harder and involves way more critical thinking than freaking math. Math is so easy I can do it.

I say this as someone who got in to the school I went to because of my SATs. I would not have been accepted without it.

There are intelligence tests but the SAT or ACT aren’t them.
 
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Paul

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Why do you keep insisting on dictating my own life experiences to me? This is the second time you’ve more or less said my life experience can’t be right because it doesn’t fit your narrative. I know when I stated drinking, smoking, lost faith in the church, etc. I still know what “anecdotal” means. I don’t claim my personal experience as fact. I feel like you’re accusing me of making shirt up to fit a narrative, and I’m not ok with it.
All I said is that an anecdote is an anecdote.
 

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