First presidential debate (1 Viewer)

[Optimus Prime]

Since we usually have a separate thread for these
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NEW YORK (AP) — President Joe Biden begins an intense period of private preparations Friday at Camp David for what may be the most consequential presidential debate in decades.

The 81-year-old Democrat’s team is aware that he cannot afford an underwhelming performance when he faces Republican rival Donald Trump for 90 minutes on live television Thursday night. Biden’s team is expecting aggressive attacks on his physical and mental strength, his record on the economy and immigration and even his family.

Trump, 78 and ever confident, will stay on the campaign trail before going to his Florida estate next week for two days of private meetings as part of an informal prep process.

The former president’s allies are pushing him to stay focused on his governing plans, but they’re expecting him to be tested by pointed questions about his unrelenting focus on election fraud, his role in the erosion of abortion rights and his unprecedented legal baggage.

Thursday’s debate on CNN will be full of firsts, with the potential to reshape the presidential race. Never before in the modern era have two presumptive nominees met on the debate stage so early in the general election season. Never before have two White House contenders faced off at such advanced ages, with widespread questions about their readiness.

And never before has a general election debate participant been saddled with a felony conviction. The debate-stage meeting comes just two weeks before Trump is scheduled to be sentenced on 34 felony counts in his New York hush money trial.

“You can argue this will be the most important debate, at least in my lifetime,” said Democratic strategist Jim Messina, 54, who managed former President Barack Obama’s 2012 campaign.

PRESSURE ON BIDEN


The ground rules for Thursday’s debate, the first of two scheduled meetings, are unusual.

The candidates agreed to meet at a CNN studio in Atlanta with no audience. Each candidate’s microphone will be muted, except when it’s his turn to speak. No props or prewritten notes will be allowed onstage. The candidates will be given only a pen, a pad of paper and a bottle of water.

There will be no opening statements. A coin flip determined that Biden would stand at the podium to the viewer’s right, while Trump would deliver the final closing statement.


The next debate won’t be until September. Any stumbles Thursday will be hard to erase or replace quickly.………..

How Biden and Trump are taking very different approaches to preparing for next week's debate

President Joe Biden is beginning an intense period of private debate preparations at Camp David. His trip comes as officials in both parties scramble to set expectations for what may be the most consequential presidential debate in decades.

apnews.com

 

[Lapaz]

You have created a strawman. Congrats.

You are arguing about a fictional conditional topic that I've never stated, nor anyone in this thread I believe.

Have fun with that.

Edit to add: I'm going to try one last time in good faith. If you had a coworker, that saw you on conference call, and then messaged you privately, and asked if you are ok. They then followed up and inquired if you have ever taken a cognitive decline test. Would you describe that person as having full faith, and support in your abilities?

This is not hard. You guys are willfully obtuse it seems. It's a small topic that you and Sam just won't let go.

I think Pelosi was hedging, but I got the impression she believes there is a good chance that Biden can continue to be a good president. I think it is clear she isn’t certain, which is an honest take. Of course she pointed out how dangerous and also possibly mentally incapable Trump seems as well, but Trump’s supporters don’t care or don’t believe that, unlike most would-be Biden undecided voters.

 

[J-DONK]

I think Pelosi was hedging, but I got the impression she believes there is a good chance that Biden can continue to be a good president. I think it is clear she isn’t certain, which is an honest take. Of course she pointed out how dangerous and also possibly mentally incapable Trump seems as well, but Trump’s supporters don’t care or don’t believe that, unlike most would-be Biden undecided voters.

I personally think on a meta level it was Pelosi signaling to the rest of caucus "It's ok to not fully support the administration." All the anonymous sources, etc made it clear that the debate was bad, but equally as frustrating was the complete silence afterwards.

I have no idea what a 15 minute pre-taped interview with a week of prep is supposed to do on Friday. If Biden is fit for the office he should be front and center right now. His camp, and himself seems oblivious to their situation.

"I beat medicare" is a meme, and a reminder to never let someone that old have the nomination again.

 

[Incumbent]

That’s an interesting QB analogy always seemingly thought to be better. I think that analogy works for a QB that got a concussion and still seems affected.

The point is that anybody else can look good when they aren't yet the focus of attention.

Part of why I'm unconvinced about a change is that the polling advantage for alternate candidates that I've seen, so far, isn't reassuring. None of them are getting a significant Biden-is-so-bad bump in their odds. We won't really know unless people go out on the campaign trail, so we have to at least recognize change is also a gamble and not a clearly better path forward. If there was an outlier with notably higher polling than all of the others, then maybe an opportunity opens up that can't be overlooked.

I read a scenario that was shared in this discussion and one of the points made by the author was that if the Democrats undertook his process, it could generate excitement among people and enthusiasm from the media to cover the events. Sure, the same media that has largely relegated Trump to an afterthought while they close the curtain on Biden, isn't going to feast on a-party-in-disarray stories. I'd love to be wrong.

An individual deciding that Biden should be replaced is the easy part. It gets very complicated from there.

Lloyd Doggett was out-of-touch enough to cite LBJ withdrawing as an historical precedent that Biden should follow. LBJ's withdrawal led to a power vacuum and contested convention, a frayed party, and a loss to Nixon. Maybe Johnson would have lost, also, but his decision isn't one that helped Democrats, and arguably might have made circumstances worse. Nixon and McCarthy combined to practically flip the map from the 1964 election.

 

[Lapaz]

Since you seem to think the majority of people think like you do, I'd like to know if you're going to vote for Biden if he's on the ballot.

It's not a gotcha, it's a sincere question. Since you seem to think that people won't vote for Biden after the debate and that most people think like you, it seems to me that you're not going to vote for Biden if he's on the ballot.

If you are still going to vote for Biden, why do you assume that most others won't? I genuinely want to better understand where you're coming from.

I can’t speak for J-Donk, but I’m going to chime in. There are many people that are not convinced that Biden can do a good job in a 2nd term, and even though they don’t like Trump, they think he’ll do a better job. I’m voting for Biden or whoever the Democratic candidate is, so it’s not people like me, but rather the 3-5% of voters that are waffling that are at risk of abandoning Biden due to the infirmity perception. It’s all those wafflers seem to care about. Give them a non-infirm candidate, and I think those voters will vote for the Democrat.

 

[SFIDC3]

Trump supporters won't care even if they knew. They would just find a way to rationalize and/or dismiss it with the help of their preferred propaganda sources.

In Stephen King's "The Dead Zone," a presidential hopeful who would have destroyed the world if elected has his future destroyed because he tried to used a child as a human shield during an assassination attempt. King wasn't able to imagine today's Republican voters.

It's funny you bring that up because I think about that very scene often.....and Martin Sheen's character is very similar to Trump (unhinged) in many respects.....sadly the MAGA faithful would probably find a way to explain away just about anything that puts "dear leader" in a bad light.....

Which is unbelievable, terrifying and disgusting at the same time.....

 

[J-DONK]

I can’t speak for J-Donk, but I’m going to chime in. There are many people that are not convinced that Biden can do a good job in a 2nd term, and even though they don’t like Trump, they think he’ll do a better job. I’m voting for Biden or whoever the Democratic candidate is, so it’s not people like me, but rather the 3-5% of voters that are waffling that are at risk of abandoning Biden due to the infirmity perception. It’s all those wafflers seem to care about. Give them a non-infirm candidate, and I think those voters will vote for the Democrat.

This pretty much. This board doesn't have undecided voters. We aren't that demographic. I also completely understand swing/undecided voters who won't vote for a senile old man no matter how bad Trump.

My mother voted for Trump, but she hates him now. She thinks Joe Biden is a joke. She thinks Democrats are a joke of a party for ever nominating him this time around. She has already decided to leave the president box blank. She would vote Democrat if there was a normal candidate that she liked.

I don't think people on this board truly grasp the perception of Joe Biden to the neutral normies of the country.

 

[faceman]

I'm mowing waist high weed off of a total of 25 acres using a 21 inch push mower, on hill slopes which reach 45 degree angles from being flat land. That 45 degree angle factor ought to explain why I'm using a 21 inch push mower. An absolutely necessary job which takes me two to three months every year.

If I tried to use a riding mower, or big tractor with a brush hog, it would roll over on the slopes and that would likely to kill me.

I have a big tractor with a brush hog. I don't dare take it out onto the steep slopes. More up and down they are,local than flat.

Around here we keep any flat land we have in the gold mining museum. That's the kind of place it is.

I'm very late in responding to this. I just wanted to say I was a volunteer fire fighter in the 80's. I used to help the
state forestry commission with controlled burns. A huge part of that is cutting fire breaks around the area needed
to be burned. You can't do that in the mountains where you live. It's the main reason your area is so vulnerable to
forest fire damage.

 

[Incumbent]

This pretty much. This board doesn't have undecided voters. We aren't that demographic. I also completely understand swing/undecided voters who won't vote for a senile old man no matter how bad Trump.

My mother voted for Trump, but she hates him now. She thinks Joe Biden is a joke. She thinks Democrats are a joke of a party for ever nominating him this time around. She has already decided to leave the president box blank. She would vote Democrat if there was a normal candidate that she liked.

I don't think people on this board truly grasp the perception of Joe Biden to the neutral normies of the country.

"No matter how bad Trump" - ignoring that Trump is old and there have been cognitive and temperament issues raised about him for years, and by people who have worked directly with him.

We all have our windows to the rest of society and I already know there are popularity issues with Biden. Like you, I know of (quite a few) former Trump supporters who won't vote for him ever again. I also know that go ahead and pick an alternative candidate and there will be many people who hone in on their faults, also. Too inexperienced. Been in politics too long. Too young. Too liberal. Not liberal enough. Corporatist. Sell-out. Socialist. Just don't like him. Just don't like her.

The problem you're really describing is that too many people prioritize their feelings about a candidate rather than trying to understand an aggregate of policies, circumstances, or understanding the consequences of elections. Biden is arguably the most progressive president we've had, certainly in a long time. But he's an old guy running against an old guy, and didn't accomplish all the things he needed to in extraordinarily difficult times to check all the boxes for some people.

If there is something that is generally true, regardless of ideology, too many people are locked on the pageantry of politics, while ignoring the far greater importance and difficulties of governance.

So, yes, there are concerns about Biden. There are far greater concerns about Trump. The math doesn't work out on this because of feelings.

 

[Lapaz]

"No matter how bad Trump" - ignoring that Trump is old and there have been cognitive and temperament issues raised about him for years, and by people who have worked directly with him.

We all have our windows to the rest of society and I already know there are popularity issues with Biden. Like you, I know of (quite a few) former Trump supporters who won't vote for him ever again. I also know that go ahead and pick an alternative candidate and there will be many people who hone in on their faults, also. Too inexperienced. Been in politics too long. Too young. Too liberal. Not liberal enough. Corporatist. Sell-out. Socialist. Just don't like him. Just don't like her.

The problem you're really describing is that too many people prioritize their feelings about a candidate rather than trying to understand an aggregate of policies, circumstances, or understanding the consequences of elections. Biden is arguably the most progressive president we've had, certainly in a long time. But he's an old guy running against an old guy, and didn't accomplish all the things he needed to in extraordinarily difficult times to check all the boxes for some people.

If there is something that is generally true, regardless of ideology, too many people are locked on the pageantry of politics, while ignoring the far greater importance and difficulties of governance.

So, yes, there are concerns about Biden. There are far greater concerns about Trump. The math doesn't work out on this because of feelings.

It's more than a feeling that Biden doesn't seem capable of serving another full term. It's being demonstrated by Biden's actions. It's not just the debate. He is being protected from unscripted public appearances. He is slurring his speech more than ever. Even his radio interview today was more slurred than usual. Then there is just observation. Some people will vote against Biden because they think an infirm president is more dangerous than Trump. Trump may also be infirm, but it isn't as evident, since everyone has accepted that he spouts nonsense, so it is hard to tell. No one is talking about Biden's policies, nor Trump's (Project 2025, vengeance plans, tax cuts for wealthy, foreign relations, etc), because Biden's infirmity perception has been magnified. Any other candidate will get us back to talking policies, and Trump's dangerous policies and plans should cause him to tank.

 

[SamAndreas]

There is another thing to be brought up. Election result matter, and those election results have been counted, Biden won the primary race.

I don't like overturning verified election results over something which is theorized as being someone's considered opinion at best.

I would ask those who want to overturn these primary election results

What happened on January 6?

Isn't this kind of like that?

 

[SamAndreas]

It's more than a feeling that Biden doesn't seem capable of serving another full term. It's being demonstrated by Biden's actions. It's not just the debate. He is being protected from unscripted public appearances. He is slurring his speech more than ever. Even his radio interview today was more slurred than usual. Then there is just observation. Some people will vote against Biden because they think an infirm president is more dangerous than Trump. Trump may also be infirm, but it isn't as evident, since everyone has accepted that he spouts nonsense, so it is hard to tell. No one is talking about Biden's policies, nor Trump's (Project 2025, vengeance plans, tax cuts for wealthy, foreign relations, etc), because Biden's infirmity perception has been magnified. Any other candidate will get us back to talking policies, and Trump's dangerous policies and plans should cause him to tank.

It's not a feeling I share with you.

Feelings aside, I demand that the you and the others who have this "more than a feeling," accept the 2024 primary election results. That primary election Biden won.

I demanded no more than that of MAGA back in 2020.

So there you have it, "I demand!" You may quote me.

 

[SaintForLife]

To start with that report that "Nancy has turned was exagratraded, it was made entirely of warm spit and straw.

Joe Biden isn't going to quit, Harris is his VP. She likes Biden. I like both her and Biden. They are going to win.

The Criminal you like is going to lose.

I think you are in for a great disappointment which will in the end somewhat harm you. I have a kind suggestion, because I do care about all living creatures.

I will recommend Fluoxetine, talk to your doctor. Fluoxetine is the generic name for the name brand PROZAC, which is much more expensive.

It works very well, I use it. I highly recommend the cheap generic for PROZAC to deal with depression. Save money when you can. The generic for Prozac saves lots of money, but works for me, and others, just as well as the name brand.

I have used both, and I think the generic tastes better. They both taste awful. Try to swallow them right away with some water.

You are in my opinion afflicted with depression, it's all over your posts. I can see, feel, and sense it. I don't know if you know that. You'd be a lot happier if you were to deal with it.

If you still have a wife, she'd be happier as well.

I still have my wife, she sure is is a lot happier when I take my Serotonin uptake inhibitor. In other word we, and everyone else on the world gets along much better when I take my Fluoxetine. Consider it.

It's so easy to deal with it, and it's inexpensive. People will like you better if you do deal with it. They certainly like me better when I deal with it.

Almost end of lecture, I will never bring it up again. The last part >>> The solution is cheap, the generic for PROZAC only costs me about 10 cents a day. Talk to your doctor next time you go there. In my considered opinion you are depressed.

Without my "med" I certainly am. But with it, I am not.

You might want to stock up on your antidepressants for November.

 

[SaintForLife]

 

[SaintForLife]

It sounds like Biden will still be pressured to not run despite him saying he's not dropping out.

 

[Incumbent]

It's more than a feeling that Biden doesn't seem capable of serving another full term. It's being demonstrated by Biden's actions. It's not just the debate. He is being protected from unscripted public appearances. He is slurring his speech more than ever. Even his radio interview today was more slurred than usual. Then there is just observation. Some people will vote against Biden because they think an infirm president is more dangerous than Trump. Trump may also be infirm, but it isn't as evident, since everyone has accepted that he spouts nonsense, so it is hard to tell. No one is talking about Biden's policies, nor Trump's (Project 2025, vengeance plans, tax cuts for wealthy, foreign relations, etc), because Biden's infirmity perception has been magnified. Any other candidate will get us back to talking policies, and Trump's dangerous policies and plans should cause him to tank.

I didn’t hear him today but the times I’ve heard him since the debate, other than an occasional shallow cough, he has sounded like he’s sounded to me for a long time.

Now that the concerns are out there, I do believe the next few days are pivotal for him, but I don’t share your view that Biden is any more likely to not survive another term than Trump is. Trump is also old, overweight, doesn’t exercise, eats a bad diet, and is reportedly a longtime substance abuser. He has shown cognitive decline and demonstrates a low IQ - speaking on a middle school level, often losing his train of thought, and frequently garbling words. His condition has arguably been worse for longer but the narrative is different for him. Literally the thing that sways people towards him is that he’s louder while Biden usually speaks in a softer tone and has an impediment. When my Dad was experiencing rapid mental decline earlier this year, he was loud and spoke with conviction and tempo. He also said a lot of things that didn’t make sense.

Any voter who can look past Project 25 and the growing threats to our Democracy, because they have singled Biden out for concerns about health, isn’t making a very informed or principled decision. They are basing it on feelings and choosing to ignore the same concerns in the other guy. I’ll stand by that.

There’s not really any doubt in my mind that if Biden had chosen to not take the debate seriously, like Trump did, there wouldn’t have been this wild disparity in how they came across. Biden was bad. So was Trump.

If a change happens, I want it to be because it was determined to be necessary and not an impulsive decision made under pressure, in a matter of days, because people are feeling a certain kind of way about an incomplete picture.

 

[SaintForLife]

Wow. That's bad

Those who encountered the president in social settings sometimes left their interactions disturbed. Longtime friends of the Biden family, who spoke to me on the condition of anonymity, were shocked to find that the president did not remember their names. At a White House event last year, a guest recalled, with horror, realizing that the president would not be able to stay for the reception because, it was clear, he would not be able to make it through the reception. The guest wasn’t sure they could vote for Biden, since the guest was now open to an idea that they had previously dismissed as right-wing propaganda: The president may not really be the acting president after all.

 

[MT15]

That Vanity Fair article doesn’t explain the logistical challenges. Other country campaigns last less than 2 months, and we have more than 4, so it is not too late. The article says the FEC may not allow money to be transferred, but doesn’t mention that Harris wouldn’t have that problem. I’ve come to the conclusion that Harris should lead the ticket anyway, because she would face the fewest challenges. I think there are better candidates that may not be viable at this point, but it doesn’t matter, because I think she would win.

It states that he was selected by the states, but he didn’t have any serious competition, since he seemed to be healthy and had done a good job. However I thought this was imminent, but the party loyalty prevailed. A more youthful perception of an 82 year old Biden would win, but he is not changing perceptions with his actions. That adds to the perception that he is not capable. In this case, I think perception is reality. Now they’re building up the importance of the George Step interview, which could make matters worse again, but it’s doubtful that it will make much difference alone. He would have to be out giving unscripted interviews and press conferences frequently, but onesy interviews. I doubt he is capable, so the party needs to make a change for the good of the country.

Other country’s electoral systems are not like ours. There would be some distinct challenges even getting Harris on the top of the ticket in some states from what I have read.

Also-millions of people voted in the primary. The party shouldn’t just throw those votes out, in fact, they cannot throw them out unless Joe steps aside, as far as I know.

Let’s just wait and see how things play out in the next week or so.

 

[SamAndreas]

and