First presidential debate (1 Viewer)

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    Optimus Prime

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    Since we usually have a separate thread for these
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    NEW YORK (AP) — President Joe Biden begins an intense period of private preparations Friday at Camp David for what may be the most consequential presidential debate in decades.

    The 81-year-old Democrat’s team is aware that he cannot afford an underwhelming performance when he faces Republican rival Donald Trump for 90 minutes on live television Thursday night. Biden’s team is expecting aggressive attacks on his physical and mental strength, his record on the economy and immigration and even his family.

    Trump, 78 and ever confident, will stay on the campaign trail before going to his Florida estate next week for two days of private meetings as part of an informal prep process.

    The former president’s allies are pushing him to stay focused on his governing plans, but they’re expecting him to be tested by pointed questions about his unrelenting focus on election fraud, his role in the erosion of abortion rights and his unprecedented legal baggage.

    Thursday’s debate on CNN will be full of firsts, with the potential to reshape the presidential race. Never before in the modern era have two presumptive nominees met on the debate stage so early in the general election season. Never before have two White House contenders faced off at such advanced ages, with widespread questions about their readiness.

    And never before has a general election debate participant been saddled with a felony conviction. The debate-stage meeting comes just two weeks before Trump is scheduled to be sentenced on 34 felony counts in his New York hush money trial.

    “You can argue this will be the most important debate, at least in my lifetime,” said Democratic strategist Jim Messina, 54, who managed former President Barack Obama’s 2012 campaign.

    PRESSURE ON BIDEN


    The ground rules for Thursday’s debate, the first of two scheduled meetings, are unusual.

    The candidates agreed to meet at a CNN studio in Atlanta with no audience. Each candidate’s microphone will be muted, except when it’s his turn to speak. No props or prewritten notes will be allowed onstage. The candidates will be given only a pen, a pad of paper and a bottle of water.

    There will be no opening statements. A coin flip determined that Biden would stand at the podium to the viewer’s right, while Trump would deliver the final closing statement.


    The next debate won’t be until September. Any stumbles Thursday will be hard to erase or replace quickly.………..

     
    With reproductive rights being such a salient issue, having Harris be the nominee - perhaps as President - wouldn’t be the worst strategy. Maybe she gets defeated by racism/misogyny, but I feel better about trying that over the current status wuo.

    I have thought about the potential effect of that but it’s hard to imagine the reproductive vote isn’t already locked in. I do like the idea of a woman winning the presidency under those circumstances, though.
     
    Noted. Do you think that the Democratic Party itself deserves any blame in this?
    Sure, but not the lion’s share

    Project 2025 is truly terrifying.

    Abortion rights will continue to stripped.

    Kids will be forced to learn the Bible in school (as history at that)

    What about students of different religions, or those with no religion?

    Fork em’, they don’t matter and aren’t “real” Americans anyway

    Ditto LBGTQ Americans

    American exceptionalism will teach kids that America is the rootinest, tootinest country on Earth that is the best in and at everything and never ever did anything wrong

    “But what about that time America…”

    “I SAID NEVER DID ANYTHING WRONG!!!!”

    Career government employees will be able to be fired just cuz (and more ‘suitable’ people will replace them

    Undocumented will see the second coming of the Trail of Tears and/or Japanese internment camps and…..

    “I SAID NEVER DID ANYTHING WRONG!!!!”

    Freedom of the press and freedom to criticize the government and politicians (or make fun of them in SNL skits) will be under attack and scrutiny

    President Biden will not allow that to happen
    President Harris will not allow that to happen
    President Newsom will not allow that to happen
    President Whitmer will not allow that to happen

    Is this whole situation a cluster fork coming at the worse possible time?

    Sure

    Are there legitimate questions and concerns about Biden?

    Sure

    Are there legitimate questions about who would offer the best chance of winning?

    Sure

    If democrats lose will there be forever second guessing, and criticizing what was done, and endless speculating about what should have been done instead? (With 100% certainty that the “something else” would have guaranteed victory)

    Sure

    But no matter if Biden stays in or steps down and if he steps down no matter who the nominee is if Donald Trump wins I first, foremost and nearly exclusively will blame the people who voted for Donald Trump
     
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    And so you think that confirms a diagnosis of some form of dementia? There’s nothing official supporting that and while it’s clear he’s showing some signs of his age, that doesn’t mean he has dementia. Criticism is justified but causally fitting in claims as if they are facts seems pretty, uh, cultish? Blue MAGA? Maybe we’re better off sticking to what we know and being clear when we’re expressing matters of opinion or interpretation.

    No, that part was a joke, but I do think it points to him not having a "full schedule" which was the discussion.

    You are arguing in bad faith Incumbent.
     
    No, that part was a joke, but I do think it points to him not having a "full schedule" which was the discussion.

    You are arguing in bad faith Incumbent.

    I’m not. I have, for years on this site and SR, made it a point to try and understand others, seek clarity, and stick to what I know to be true, and clarify what is my opinion. Not perfectly but with commitment.

    I asked if there was evidence that Biden hasn’t been keeping up with his responsibilities as president. It was clear to me the point MT15 was making. You seemed to be talking about reports centered around his recent travels and the debate.

    I am always open to considering credible sources and facts and allowing those to better shape my opinion, or change it entirely.
     
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    I’m not. I have, for years on this site and SR, made it a point to try and understand others, seek clarity, and stick to what I know to be true, and clarify what is my opinion. Not perfectly but with commitment.

    I asked if there was evidence that Biden hasn’t been keeping up with his responsibilities as president. It was clear to me the point MT15 was making. You seemed to be talking about reports centered around his recent travels and the debate.

    I am always open to considering credible sources and facts and allowing those to better shape my opinion, or change it entirely.

    This discussion was about Joe's schedule. You latched on to something, and are just barreling down.

    You just completely disregarded the actual discussion to go down this tangent on something that if you re-read was clearly tongue, and cheek.

    That's the definition of arguing in bad faith.

    Since, we are now circling back:

    I pointed out a 11am start, and evenings that end by 8pm with an afternoon nap.

    This is on the back of also linking an article that points to the less amount of press conferences since Reagan.

    Can I make a suggestion to you, and MT15? You keep asking me for facts. Let's see some on your end. Start using data to back up your opinions. I've linked two articles in this discussion backing up my opinion. How about you? Go digging if you want to prove me wrong, but actually prove it. I'm tired of some random keyboard's warrior having the same equivalence of major news outlets, and life long career Democrats.

    P.S. I'm having to type out discussions asking to not link random twitter accounts, and using facts to back up your opinions. I feel like I'm talking to SFL, and Farb.
     
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    This discussion was about Joe's schedule. You latched on to something, and are just barreling down.

    You just completely disregarded the actual discussion to go down this tangent on something that if you re-read was clearly tongue, and cheek.

    That's the definition of arguing in bad faith.

    MT15 said he’s kept an active schedule as POTUS and you responded that he hasn’t been active because he hasn’t done as many interviews as other presidents. I acknowledged that the lack of interviews is fair to bring up but that’s certainly not the single, or even most important, gauge of how busy he’s been. I then tried to clarify a timeframe we were talking about because you seemed focused on the trip and debate prep and it seemed MT15 was talking about a longer timeframe, and I was responding on that premise.

    You then mentioned that his staff was protecting him because of sundowning and I asked who had used the term sundowning to be clear on facts. Now you say you were joking. Okay. I’m not the one discussing in bad faith.

    You’re quick to assail others for their thoughts and opinions while being completely blind to how centered you are in your own biases.
     
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    Least amount of interviews, doesn't start the day till 11am, takes an afternoon nap. This doesn't paint the picture of what MT15 called a full schedule.

    We can agree to disagree. I would stop short of claiming I'm arguing in bad faith though.
    Why are you taking an admission about the days of debate prep and claiming that he always starts his days at 11? How can this be anything but bad faith at this point? I mean his schedule is public.

     
    I get that, but I respectfully disagree that what’s happening is what you state above. What we can all agree on is that Trump needs to lose, right? No one (except maybe Sam Andreas) believes Biden came close to doing damage to Trump during the debate, and in fact damaged himself. My assessment is that Biden is currently incapable of making a case for himself or against Trump in a debate or interview setting. If we lose to Trump, I at least want someone who is capable of making an argument.
    What I stated above isn’t my perception, but it is the perception of a whole lot of black people and women especially on Twitter. You can say that’s not what is happening all day, but that’s how they feel.
     
    I don’t know how this would be possible. How would votes be taken and counted in a process that could remotely be considered credible? The Democratic Party can’t just call on states to hold new elections, and there isn’t time for that anyway, so I’m curious to know more about what you’re thinking.
    I think it can be done. I think a website could be built that all registered democrats can go online to vote. The security can be figured out, but this is just for a party VP nomination, so it’s not required to meet the standards of an election. American Idol does it. The party can hold a couple of debates and then have each candidate post their platforms. Then let people vote. This would make the VP democratically elected.
     
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    I don’t think it can be done. I think a website could be built that all registered democrats can go online to vote. The security can be figured out, but this is just for a party VP nomination, so it’s not required to meet the standards of an election. American Idol does it. The party can hold a couple of debates and then have each candidate post their platforms. Then let people vote. This would make the VP democratically elected.

    I don’t know if it’s possible or not to do what you’re saying, but the VP is always selected by the presidential candidate and I don’t know why that would need to change for this scenario. I don’t think it’s going to make any of the primary voters feel like it’s bringing a missing fairness to the process.
     
    They openly discussed no longer doing evening events because of his sundowning.
    This is a gross misstatement. According to one anonymous source that was discussed during a phone call. He hasn’t stopped doing evening events yet. And they never said (nobody ever said) it was because of “sundowning”.

    I see you now claim it’s a joke. Okay. Whatever.
     
    Newsweek is citing a USA Today poll that shows an increase in Democrats supporting Biden, post debate. His numbers with overall 2020 voters who supported him are a concern at 78%, but there’s not been a dramatic departure from Biden… yet, anyway.

    I’m not overvaluing this information, but if the campaign is seeing similar data in internal polling, it would explain the resistance.

     
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    On the topic of does Trump/Republicans want Biden to stay in?


    Only one thing could disrupt that plan: a change of candidates atop the Democratic ticket.

    There was always a certain danger inherent to this assault on Biden’s faculties. If Wiles and LaCivita were too successful—if too many Democrats decided, too quickly, that Biden was no longer capable of defeating Trump, much less serving another four years thereafter—then they risked losing an ideal opponent against whom their every tactical maneuver had already been deliberated, poll-tested, and prepared. Campaigns are usually on guard against peaking too soon; in this case, the risk for Trump’s team was Biden bottoming out too early.

    “Joe Biden,” Wiles told me, allowing the slightest of smiles, “is a gift.”

    But now, as we talked after the debate, it was apparent that they might have miscalculated. Elected Democrats were calling for Biden’s removal from the ticket. When I asked who Trump’s opponent was going to be come November, his two deputies sounded flummoxed.

    “I don’t know. I don’t know,” Wiles said.

    “Based off of the available public data,” LaCivita added, “he doesn’t look like he’s going anywhere.”

    Ronald Brownstein: The Biden-replacement operation

    Biden quitting the race would necessitate a dramatic reset—not just for the Democratic Party, but for Trump’s campaign. Wiles and LaCivita told me that any Democratic replacement would inherit the president’s deficiencies; that whether it’s Vice President Kamala Harris or California Governor Gavin Newsom or anyone else, Trump’s blueprint for victory would remain essentially unchanged. But they know that’s not true. They know their campaign has been engineered in every way—from the voters they target to the viral memes they create—to defeat Biden. And privately, they are all but praying that he remains their opponent.

    From here on out, anyone with a different opinion, you need to come with a source like this. I'm tired of debating people's opinions with sources.

    Chris Lacivita is Trump's Senior advisor.

    Susie Wiles is this person:


    Investment Bankers aren't equal to life long career politicians, and advisors in the DNP. I don't care what random twitter accounts think about subjects, stop linking them.
     
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    It’s actually pretty eerie. Do you think it’s organic, or is it being “helped” along?

    I think both. We all saw what we saw in the debate and it wasn’t good but there’s conflicting reports about how indicative that is of Biden on a daily basis. It’s definitely being helped along, though, this time much more in the open.

    Unfortunately, if Biden can’t shake concerns that he’s unfit, and voters are going to hold that against him in a way those same voters don’t with Trump, then it’s going to be difficult, if not impossible, to overcome.

    I think we’re nearing the point where the floodgates could open against him and he’ll have to step aside or carry on his campaign with badly fractured support. That won’t work.
     
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