Does Trump ever do any jail time? (15 Viewers)

[Optimus Prime]

Everything I've seen and heard says that the split second Donald Trump is no longer president there will be flood of charges waiting for him

And if he resigns and Pence pardons him there are a ton of state charges as an understudy waiting in the wings if the fed charges can't perform

What do you think the likelihood of there being a jail sentence?

In every movie and TV show I've ever seen, in every political thriller I've ever read about a criminal and corrupt president there is ALWAYS some version of;

"We can't do that to the country",

"A trial would tear the country apart",

"For the nation to heal we need to move on" etc.

Would life imitate art?

Even with the charges, even with the proof the charges are true will the powers that be decide, "we can't do that to the country"?

 

[H B Lowrey]

No. His opinion about what best serves this country is his opinion. That opinion has nothing to do with what lies at his core as a human being. I might not like his opinion, but that in no way alters what I know him to be. I was against the war in Vietnam, but I served because other Americans were serving and dying. He supported the war, but in the final analysis, he served because other Americans were fighting and dying also. While our opinions about the war differed, our actions were the same.

It might not fit your current world view but yes, some of those who support Trump are decent people who can be trusted in the direst of circumstances to come to your aid.

It fits yours, so you'll invent the rest. Followers, you said it, not me. You can do what ya like. Who's stopping you? Eisenhower warned the nation about this mindset. War without end, Amen, Amen.

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

It fits yours, so you'll invent the rest. Followers, you said it, not me. You can do what ya like. Who's stopping you? Eisenhower warned the nation about this mindset. War without end, Amen, Amen.

You're not making a lick of sense.

 

[RobF]

No. His opinion about what best serves this country is his opinion. That opinion has nothing to do with what lies at his core as a human being. I might not like his opinion, but that in no way alters what I know him to be. I was against the war in Vietnam, but I served because other Americans were serving and dying. He supported the war, but in the final analysis, he served because other Americans were fighting and dying also. While our opinions about the war differed, our actions were the same.

It might not fit your current world view but yes, some of those who support Trump are decent people who can be trusted in the direst of circumstances to come to your aid.

This is essentially a moral philosophy debate. What does it mean to be a good person? Can good people support bad people, or people who support bad things? If not, does it matter if they do so through ignorance or not? Or if a person supports what they believe to be the lesser of two evils through what they believe to be necessity, does that make them evil? And so on.

Personally, I think it's a reasonable stance to take that a person who is knowingly supporting a bad person isn't good. But I think it's also incredibly easy to underestimate just how possible it is to have a wildly distorted view of someone, especially when there's billions of dollars devoted to it, and just how inclined humans are to self-deception.

So essentially, there's validity to both points of view, depending on how you're defining 'good' and how absolutist you're being about it.

I do generally find it weird that anyone who served in Vietnam would be inclined to support Donald 'oooh me bone spurs' Trump though, but that's another matter.

 

[MT15]

Rob, lots of veterans support Trump, I find it weird also, but they evidently don’t mind his lying to get out of service to his country. They didn’t mind it when he disparaged a war hero either by mocking his time in a military prison where he was seriously injured by torture. Then Trump turned around and championed a war criminal from our side, whose acts were so egregious that he was turned in by his own squad.

The only way I can make sense of it is there are various degrees of delusion among his followers and supporters. I know people who really cannot stand Trump, yet they voted for him because they are absolutely terrified of the alternative - which they think is the US turning into a socialist or even communist country. They have been deluded by politicians and media they trust lying to them for years - at least since Gingrich.

Others either don’t believe Trump did those bad things, or they think he was justified because he was “attacked” and they like that he “fights back”. Then others see the opportunity for grift and try to cash in. Others are just mentally unwell and are attracted to Trump because of his anti-social behavior. We have such a mess in this country.

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

I do generally find it weird that anyone who served in Vietnam would be inclined to support Donald 'oooh me bone spurs' Trump though, but that's another matter.

Well, unfortunately, there are a lot of them. Further, there were a lot of veterans on the right who didn't support John McCain/a Vietnam vet. Even further it was a bunch of veterans, swift boat vets, who helped bring down John Kerry/a Vietnam vet. To continue, there were a lot of veterans on the right, Vietnam veterans included, that didn't support Colin Powell/a Vietnam vet.

In conclusion, don't bunch Vietnam Veterans into a monolith of beliefs.

 

[MT15]

I guess my point is that it’s pretty extreme to believe that all people who voted for Trump are in one bucket. That they are all evil and racist. They are not. They have a completely skewed perception of him. They don’t believe he is racist. They don’t believe anything they read or hear except what is packaged for them, as Rob pointed out. I know these people, I live around them and some of them are in my family.

One of the reasons we are in this mess in this country is that politicians started demonizing their opponents in a more extreme way decades ago. I believe it started with Gingrich. And Trump has taken it to another level, although he didn’t do it without a lot of help.

It won’t help anything to have democrats start to demonize the other side, too. In fact it will only make things worse, IMO.

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

It won’t help anything to have democrats start to demonize the other side, too. In fact it will only make things worse, IMO.

Exactly right. Why should those of us on the left start to imitate the right? Demonizing the other side is what Trump does.

 

[SFIDC3]

DTC and HB Lowery are overlooking service and age. You are listed here as being 78. That's about right for a Vietnam Vet.

It's is completely possible for a person to have been a great person all of their life, but in older age to have been taken and lead astray by a creepy conman like Trump. None of that changes having been a great person in life, nor negates that such a person continue to be respected despite what are understandable errors.

Folks should blame the conman and not his victims. No person, especially no honorable veteran, should be disrespected during their elder years over strong opinions about politics.

I get this POV, because I have a few friends (less now thankfully) that still support Trump....the father of both my god daughters for example....at least last I checked. He is alone in his family in that regard (both are center leaning left as is the mom)....he started listening to the great Rush Limbaugh about 25 years ago and thus the brain washing commenced....it's sad really....but he does respect me enough to not talk politics...

 

[Optimus Prime]

Georgia says 'take that immunity weak sauce somewhere else"
=======================================

A Georgia prosecutor investigating former President Trump's efforts to overturn the results of the 2020 presidential election said in a new interview that presidential immunity will not protect him from being prosecuted in the state.

Fulton County District Attorney Fani Willis (D) told CNN that the argument Trump's lawyers have made in the past concerning presidential immunity would not stand up in court.

"Of course, I've given thought to if that may be raised as a legal issue," Willis said. "I don't think that that protection will prevent a prosecution if that becomes necessary in this state case."

Last year, Willis began investigating whether Trump or his allies committed any crimes as they attempted to persuade Georgia officials to look for voter fraud in order to secure the former president a victory in the state. The investigation was prompted by a call Trump had with Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger (R) encouraging him to look for votes that would overturn the election, CNN noted.

"You and I have listened to that phone call. But also I have the benefit of also having talked to a lot of witnesses and probably having read more on this than most people would like to," Willis told the network...............

MSN

 

[RobF]

Well, unfortunately, there are a lot of them. Further, there were a lot of veterans on the right who didn't support John McCain/a Vietnam vet. Even further it was a bunch of veterans, swift boat vets, who helped bring down John Kerry/a Vietnam vet. To continue, there were a lot of veterans on the right, Vietnam veterans included, that didn't support Colin Powell/a Vietnam vet.

In conclusion, don't bunch Vietnam Veterans into a monolith of beliefs.

Oh, I'm well aware there's a lot of them. If there weren't, there wouldn't be anything for me to find weird in the first place!

I'd also suggest there's a fundamental difference between not supporting a fellow Vietnam vet, and not just supporting but 100% supporting someone who dodged serving.

And of course pretty much no group is truly monolithic in belief (except when it's a group that's literally defined by that belief). But that's why it's interesting. If something seems strange, looking at the weirdest examples of it can be a good way to understand it. Intuitively, you might think someone would at most reluctantly support someone who you might ordinarily think they'd typically look down upon. For another example, there's also the question of why people who have been vehemently anti-'elitist' would support Trump. Yet in practice we see a lot of 100% support, even fanaticism, no matter what he does or what happens. I think @MT15 nails a lot of it. And personally, I think a lot of it is also down to cognitive dissonance. He's not someone they'd ordinarily support, but for whatever reason (e.g. fear of the alternative as @MT15 says) they feel they have to. How do they (often subconsciously) reconcile that? One way is by thinking he's an exception, that's he so special, that the reasons they wouldn't previously have respected him at all don't apply. So you end up with this counter-intuitive outcome, where people who, if you described Trump in abstract terms (e.g. 'billionaire', 'draft dodger', etc.) would rank him lowly, absolutely love him instead.

You see something similar here with Boris Johnson, albeit not to the same degree, and that appears to be wearing thin now perhaps.

Exactly right. Why should those of us on the left start to imitate the right? Demonizing the other side is what Trump does.

True.

At the same time, people still have to be accountable for their actions and the consequences of those. But I think we have to view that both collectively and individually; we can't fully expect people individually to make informed, rational, and what we'd consider to be 'good' choices, if collectively we've created an environment where people aren't in a position to do that. We should account for people's actions; we should also account for the context in which they took them.

And in terms of the topic of the thread, I think it's absolutely vital the left don't avoid pursuing actions, including against Trump, that are justified for fear of them being portrayed as demonizing. And that can easily happen; if a narrative is established that the actions aren't in fact justified and are instead political retaliation (for example), then the reality doesn't matter any more. But if that takes hold, then consequences stop having meaning, and that's a bad road to go down.

 

[H B Lowrey]

You're not making a lick of sense.

Don't worry about it then.

 

[dtc]

You sound like Trump.

Whatever. Hitler supposedly made the trains run on time.

I'm no longer willing to pretend that those who support evil are good people. They're not.

 

[dtc]

What on earth are you talking about? Are you inexplicably saying that the only way you can read a guy you trained with and served in an infantry unit in Vietnam with is by lying about how you remember him and what you observed?

I'm saying and I said pretty clearly above that maybe he was good then.

He's not now.

You probably didn't misjudge him at all. He changed.

 

[dtc]

DTC and HB Lowery are overlooking service and age. You are listed here as being 78. That's about right for a Vietnam Vet.

It's is completely possible for a person to have been a great person all of their life, but in older age to have been taken and lead astray by a creepy conman like Trump. None of that changes having been a great person in life, nor negates that such a person continue to be respected despite what are understandable errors.

Folks should blame the conman and not his victims. No person, especially no honorable veteran, should be disrespected during their elder years over strong opinions about politics.

I disagree. You don't get an old age exemption from being judged for supporting immorality.

They're willing participants in the con or they're intellectually infirm and shouldn't be making strong political assertions or voting.

 

[dtc]

No. His opinion about what best serves this country is his opinion. That opinion has nothing to do with what lies at his core as a human being. I might not like his opinion, but that in no way alters what I know him to be. I was against the war in Vietnam, but I served because other Americans were serving and dying. He supported the war, but in the final analysis, he served because other Americans were fighting and dying also. While our opinions about the war differed, our actions were the same.

It might not fit your current world view but yes, some of those who support Trump are decent people who can be trusted in the direst of circumstances to come to your aid.

There are likely millions who are decent people who would come to the aid of a friend. And, there are evidently millions of moralless scum who are supporting the racist, hateful, xenophobic lying sack of human excrement who incited his followers to attempt to prevent the peaceful transition of power.

They'd probably do anything for an individual in need, but 40 seconds later vote for a man who is intending to burn down our country to maintain his own ego.

 

[H B Lowrey]

There are likely millions who are decent people who would come to the aid of a friend. And, there are evidently millions of moralless scum who are supporting the racist, hateful, xenophobic lying sack of human excrement who incited his followers to attempt to prevent the peaceful transition of power.

They'd probably do anything for an individual in need, but 40 seconds later vote for a man who is intending to burn down our country to maintain his own ego.

There it is. Great, stand up guy ages ago when you were all on the same team. A lot may have happened between then and now. His actions will tell the tale of who and what he is now.

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

You probably didn't misjudge him at all. He changed.

No, he hasn't changed. He's just afraid that his way of life is being threatened, and it is. You're afraid your way of life is being threatened also, and you're right, it is. He believes he's in a fight between good and evil, just like you do. At the end of the day though I highly doubt you're any better or worse than he is, and I highly doubt he's any better or worse than you are. You're both just ignorant in different ways and if you two don't wake up we could all find ourselves in even bigger trouble than we're already in.

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

His actions will tell the tale of who and what he is now.

I would say you're already exposed.